Into prep analysis

anybody got any good suggestions against bullrush /fc3k ?

Sure you could "not" go into prep from 3B, but that nets you basically no reward.

Bullrush is fast enough to be prepK, while fc3K is fat enough so it can clip raph QSing immediately after 3B. Prep4 doesnt' aGI non weapon attacks.

I don't want to trade mid/grabs against astaroth when they deliberately degenerate the game into bullrush and grabs.

The move gives at least a 236B on jG, but its likely that has to be done via anticipation instead of reaction.
 
That's basically your only solution vs Asta. Bullrush is antiprep. HOWEVER, 66K and FC 3K have different data. FC 3K is unsafe to 6BB iirc, but 66K isn't. You'll struggle to tell the difference though unless u're uber sharp and there's always the BE version to worry about so responding with a punish is....troublesome to say the least if you tried to guess.

My suggestion will be stay out of range, and harass him with lows. 3B him at tip and the Prep4 will outspace bullrush
 
hotnikkelz said:
My suggestion will be stay out of range, and harass him with lows. 3B him at tip and the Prep4 will outspace bullrush
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I was trying 3B in training at various ranges, and will investigate 3B at tip more (as I am pretty skeptical). It's just a odd that you basically HAVE to just do your non-prep version of the moves against astaroth and lose a big chunk of raph's designed pressure since bullrush and fc3K seem like complete hard counters, and to a bigger degree than 2A vs nightmare's grim stride.
 
WuHT said:
I was trying 3B in training at various ranges, and will investigate 3B at tip more (as I am pretty skeptical). It's just a odd that you basically HAVE to just do your non-prep version of the moves against astaroth and lose a big chunk of raph's designed pressure since bullrush and fc3K seem like complete hard counters, and to a bigger degree than 2A vs nightmare's grim stride.
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Hmm when you think about it. NM GS, as long as you block the entry move you can pretty much 2A all the time. Same with Raph...BUT it's only on block. On hit however his pressure games still exist. How hard can Asta punish Prep K anyway?
 
KowtowRobinson said:
Unlike some other characters, ours has been generously filled into the wiki by someone. Not sure who, but respek knuckles for them.
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Heaton added most of the Wiki data. hooray!

hotnikkelz said:
Hmm when you think about it. NM GS, as long as you block the entry move you can pretty much 2A all the time. Same with Raph...BUT it's only on block. On hit however his pressure games still exist. How hard can Asta punish Prep K anyway?
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I think that after most GS transitions you can 4(B).

IMPORTANT NOTE...

PREP IS SHIT! Honestly, if anyone is comfortable with it, any TC, strong low, or a H/M combo will own you after you enter prep. If the opponent knows this, then you lose when entering prep; however, if they don't understand Prep, then you can abuse it to bajeesus and back. SE is really useful, but Prep is a death trap.
 
WuHT said:
I was trying 3B in training at various ranges, and will investigate 3B at tip more (as I am pretty skeptical). It's just a odd that you basically HAVE to just do your non-prep version of the moves against astaroth and lose a big chunk of raph's designed pressure since bullrush and fc3K seem like complete hard counters, and to a bigger degree than 2A vs nightmare's grim stride.
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You've got other tools against Asta though. He can't handle your quicker poking game without making a hard guess, at range 2 and out you can easily outpoke his ranged attacks or whiff punish with 66B, he's got to commit to a 22B of his own to have any real shot at handling Raph's 22B, etc.

He does have scary options to handle predictable prep/SE entries, but it's not like he can tell the difference between Prep and no Prep, and it's not like he's gonna punish your tip range 3B with bullrush anyway. A blocked tip range 3B should still give you enough time to sidestep.

I think Raph's biggest weakness in this matchup is his weak damage off a ducked grab. When I play Cervy against Asta I can take 80 damage off every ducked grab, however I lose the poking advantage and good frames that Raph has. Both characters have ways to beat him, and both characters will lose half life or more for eating the wrong grab. It's just how Asta works, he's eventually going to force you to guess and excels at that above all characters, but he has a ton of weaknesses as well.

One thing I can say is that you have to be careful of just DOING 22B here. Asta's 22B will make it whiff if you throw yours out first, however that move is steppable. Wait for the move to whiff before committing to your 22B. As long as you don't panic and start blocking shit you don't need to block, you'll win the ranged game against him. I got put on blast by some Asta player at the last tourney I was at because I kept eating his 22B trying to do my own, instead of just being patient and reacting to his slow moves.

Oh speaking of which, we need a matchup thread. BRB matchup thread time.
 
piggy said:
Heaton added most of the Wiki data. hooray!



I think that after most GS transitions you can 4(B).

IMPORTANT NOTE...

PREP IS SHIT! Honestly, if anyone is comfortable with it, any TC, strong low, or a H/M combo will own you after you enter prep. If the opponent knows this, then you lose when entering prep; however, if they don't understand Prep, then you can abuse it to bajeesus and back. SE is really useful, but Prep is a death trap.
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How can 4(B) vs GS< when GS A GIs verticals? -.-

You're speaking theoretically, prep is not shit, the options you mentioned won't own necessarily, it all depends on whether the attack that enters prep hits or is blocked. Also, depends a lot on spacing.
 
You can beat GS A by crouching the High and doing something after the GI window. That's just not a practical option for beating everything else he can do from Grim Stride. Still, you spot a GS A, 4B or 236B, legit counters.

I'm still free to the surrounding mindgames.
 
Just block GS A and take your free damage. He doesn't have any threatening mixups out of GS except for flapjacks and throws, both of which he needs to do after the crouch dash ends completely.

I know NM has a ton of guard gauge damage in this game, but honestly I still beat him just by making him kill himself with unsafe shit.
 
hotnikkelz said:
Hmm when you think about it. NM GS, as long as you block the entry move you can pretty much 2A all the time. Same with Raph...BUT it's only on block. On hit however his pressure games still exist. How hard can Asta punish Prep K anyway?
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good point about the prepK punishment (you're still in grab range though and 4B is not fast enough to TC).
bullrush will be fast enough to stuff prepK though.

Not the end of the world but kind of dissapointing that prep is reduced to being only used for guaranteed punish and loses its role (which i always assumed was about 50%) as a on-block semi-pressure mixup string.
 
WuHT said:
good point about the prepK punishment (you're still in grab range though and 4B is not fast enough to TC).
bullrush will be fast enough to stuff prepK though.

Not the end of the world but kind of dissapointing that prep is reduced to being only used for guaranteed punish and loses its role (which i always assumed was about 50%) as a on-block semi-pressure mixup string.
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I don't think that you have to drop prep entirely against him though, that's the thing. You just have to mix up when you enter prep. It's not something that they can react to at all, there's barely any visual cue for him entering prep. If they just DO a tech crouching move, it likely isn't going to be fast enough to punish 3B and you can just block and take the advantage back. Asta doesn't have advantage off a blocked normal bullrush, and charged bullrush will get stepped if you're lookin out for it. If he doesn't commit to that tech crouch then you can start mixing in your prep entries, and you can just shoot for prep BB and see if it counter hits. If not, stop. If it does, burn that meter. Again, not ALL the time, but we shouldn't be entering prep all the time.

Think about it this way. If a character has a move that's plus on block and sets up a frame trap, do you use that same frame trap option EVERY TIME? Of course not. Prep is a powerful enough tool when used sparingly, any Prep BB CH gets you 67 damage on it's own for a half meter. That's really not that bad.
 
The one thing i'm certain i'm willing to trade is guard gauge damage between his bullrush and raph's mids.
 
When I started this thread I was hoping for a lot of distance discussion.
Raphs is, imo, a character that plays totally different than he is on paper because he can outrange so many peeps.
just the tip of b is longer than most chars faster stuff and they need to always be aware of it.
prep is all about that rangegame too, not only with prep4, but se totally crushes so much when doing 4(b) on tip range. it's a totally new mindgame that you can only play well when you have exp vs raph imho. he has the space, time & priority to can break you down defense-wise all the way if you can't handle a good raph prepper.

a lot of raphs i see are about keeping prep invisible, but i try to make it as obvious as possible because it makes a lot of people angry(angry = mistakes). se b is always around the corner, even if they start stepping early, you can get them to guard it for + frames, in their face situation(great place for all his main pokes), and good guardbreak too.
 
If you don't hide your Preps you will just get hit out of SE attempts. It's easy to run the game on people who are unsure of what to do against him, but as far as gimmicks go in this game his aren't the hardest ones to deal with.
 
NGKrush said:
Raphs is, imo, a character that plays totally different than he is on paper because he can outrange so many peeps.
just the tip of b is longer than most chars faster stuff and they need to always be aware of it.
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If you think the speed to range ratio for B is impressive, consider that 3B is just as fast and has MORE range!

The problem is what we're breaking down right now, in that 3B as a poke is unimpressive, and if you enter prep from block you're putting yourself in a high risk "high" reward situation.
 
As for usual with Raph, spacing is everything. Opp will need a very solid TC to counter prep efficiently on block but not all of them are safe I don't think. It's quite particular. Opponent has to be on point with his counters or suffer from whiffing.
I can see something like Pat's 236A as a viable counter for example, but not without its risk as
 
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