Raphael General Discussion

prepK beats 2A and GI
XD...

Well seems stupid but sometimes >___> u expect a 2A or a GI

And is good if you catch your opponent on TJ even if in those case i prefer to SEA or SEB

CNP said:

Yeah, I know. I meant I used to do it on accident. "Crappy feint" indeed. It's got to be THE worst move in the game.

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I totally disagree. 66A+B,G can mess GIs. Many good players will try to GI 66A+B to avoid the frame loss it inflicts on block. Others will just "turtle", so spam 'em with throws or 2A+B. A good feint to complement an already great move.

2A+B is pretty crappy that move never works offline

Parnak said:

I totally disagree. 66A+B,G can mess GIs. Many good players will try to GI 66A+B to avoid the frame loss it inflicts on block. Others will just "turtle", so spam 'em with throws or 2A+B. A good feint to complement an already great move.

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even if they try to GI i think you are at disadvantage XD
And they could step and punish easily that...moreover 66A+B on block is -2 so they do not lose frame....

Simply raph players take advantage of raph range on fast pokes....if they expect that they can choose to step/duck and attack cause the followup at -2 is against raph in terms of risk/reward (few damage).

Maybe that makes sense on a laggy online environment, otherwise 66A+B,G is completely useless.


@warui 2A+B is usable against some stances/backsteps/autoGI moves cause his range is awesome.......simply i forget its a low and use it when i need range and opponent cannot block ._.

Yeah, I actually did tests to try to find how many frames total 66A+BG is.

No matter how much advantage I gave to Raph off some block, and no matter how slow the subsequent attack I could find on 8wr's wiki, I *could not* get Raphael to interrupt that attack (with 6B) with a 66A+BG between his block and that attack.

66A+BG is completely, completely, completely worthless. It will be punished, or 66A+B would have hit.


On the 'worst move', BT B+K wouldn't be worthless if Raphael *had* BT 8B+K and BT 2B+K. And BT 4B+K, I guess is the notation. I cannot calmly recollect the times I've known I wanted a Cantarella Needle but *any* B+K input was overridden to a BT B+K that missed completely. Because they're not behind me, just in the back enough to mean my inputs are in BT position. >:(
The only sane explanation is that it was put in as a power limit on Raphael's Back Turned Vurkolak aGI.


What darkfender says about 2A+B is true. It's totally seeable, but it is faster than some expect, when you're using it to deny fancy stuff. And, as a low, it forces the rarity of TJ or the even rarer low aGI for any such fancy-stance stuff to beat it.

(And there's it's SG damage, forcing step as an answer if you get that flashing gauge.)


*~*~*~

Yeah, Prep K is there for one thing. Definitely, I'm happier it's there than not - as it *does* answer that 2A Stupid Button; but maybe if the 66B move was more usable to make its role in the combo more relevant...

I think though that Prep A holds Preparation back. So much of Prep is just revolving around Prep A. You either attack and get super CH combod off Prep A... or you... don't attack, and I shouldn't have prepped (and/because Prep options do not present a mixup). This is other than the situations where *nothing* in Prep works, because they have something faster than Prep A, so that's free.

Prep in older SCs was about Raph keeping pressure, but as someone coming to SC4 effectively fresh to Soul Calibur (I played SC2 before I knew of Fighter Games as competitive pastimes, before I read Sirlin), it's quite clear that Prep is just something to make 3B and the like safer. However, with SC4's actual numbers it's just a mitigation of those moves being extremely risky.
There's no reward in calling what the opponent will reply with after blocking a prep move, because it's just Prep A or nothing. If Prep A was safe on block, it'd be busted. If it tracked step, yeah that'd be nice, but it would just make Prep viable but still extremely simply simple over as its present state of step vs. punish.

If it meant the other moves could be upgraded to actually *answering* - beating in a profitable fashion to make the other guy scared to get predicted - their respective targets, I'd like to see Prep A changed very much so, for the weaker.

Perhaps tying in to something I said before (or maybe I decided against this post ^_^;), it's weird that Raphael has Prep A but his 6A is worse than that, despite the essence of prep being a set of moves Raphael can use from the 'off-balance' stance of keeping the momentum from some moves.
Prep A is what led Raph's meta and player's down the dead-end road of greed for SC4's first year (if I understand the archives right), trying to get that CH combo like it was meant to happen. Well it doesn't. It almost never should against an opponent who controls reward vs. Raph.

Last, prep needs to be put on the right moves that want to transition to prep. 66B's transition to prep makes no sense with its data. (Hopefully it's clear that what combos something enables is a circular kind of argument, if we're talking about the design stage of a game.) Maybe... 66A could go to prep? Man, imagine going to prep roughly on +0 with an opponent who ducks the approach and then modified for reaction. Right there. It's at least logical.


... I ... didn't intend to talk more about design (& SC5). I want to appreciate and use Raph as he is in SC4. I suppose understanding 'what-ifs' can frame the facts as they are, helpfully, though.

(why does this forum forget you're logged in after just ten minutes? >_<)

WARUI_NE said:

2A+B is pretty crappy that move never works offline

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it works on sword lord ^_^

i think that move could be decent, as it is more stepped than it is blocked
if u can get the opponent to not step wen ur at a distance (gl with that) then 2A+B would hit more than expected

You know, Mandritti....we already know prep sucks...but when you flat out disect it and illustrate it like that....it's making me wanna take my Main by the back of the head, and dunk it in a vat of hydrocloric acid.......then toss his body into the Mojave Desert and let the vultures pick his bones.....then take the bones, and throw them in a cement mixer...and drive the cement mixer off a cliff of the Rocky Mountains.....then take 20lbs of C4, ignite it with a timer, and drop it on top of the crash site of the Cement truck.

sorry if it have alredy been discussed but i know no raphael to point me in the use of prep.
I m doing lot of testing lately
Well the point is many character would like to step your prep and cannot do that on reaction to your mixup, but predicting it.

Now according to frames prep A has to be the thing that make other prep mixup to work.

Lets take asta.....lot of asta will answer your prep with 6K cause it beats anything except prep A....lets them eat a couple of prep A and you'll be able to prep Asta (his step sucks ._.).

Other characters will just try to step and i wonder if in this case delaying B or SEAA/B would be viable.
For example hitting mitsu at 3B Tip, prevent his FC 1B and 88A to work (you can SEA those, same with step)....maybe 88B would still work i need to check >_>.


P.S: btw the thing i really hate is -12 BB -____-

basically if the opponent is feeling confident against you, he can do a very shallow step and then retaliate (or TS moves like mitsu's 22B) and basically it'll dodge your prep moves and at the same time it'll be faster than your SEA catches. Luckily most of those TS moves are usually verticals, and if you do an empty prep you'll waddle forward hopefully causing them to whiff. I'd normally advocate regular 3B, and punish, but safe TS are annoying to fight against.

Prep VE may beat Asty's 6K, not sure....and a max range fake prep(3B no prep) will make it whiff for sure.

Also, max range 3B prep, SEA B, no prep reentry, SPACES very well. on hit, SEA B beats anything i12 or more on the 3b(-1) prep entry. and i15 on the 6BB entry(-4).

Anyone do much actual testing(not training mode, I'm talking fighting GOOD PLAYERS and trying it...) on empty Prep tactics? This isn't fake prep..you're going into prep...and utilizing those 21-23 frames of prep animation liberally, not immediately going into a prep move....This work well for anyone? Anyone notice any good tactics to come out of it? I'm always scared shitless to even try it vs good opponents, so I can't comment much on it....

I have one use for Raphael's teleport:
When you expect Ivy to start the round with 6B+K.

To me, Prep is about deterrence rather than pressuring.

Whether your opponent love to attack, block or step against Prep, once you figure that out, you can develop a counter measure against your opponent already.

Top players are humans too, training mode, if you test your findings against yourself, you'll get the idea (Even better because your opponent may not know the trick you have up your sleeve). I love the command record.

Well delaying preps make prepb Track a lot .-. and i think it beats step B and even mitsu 22B (i think cause i saw that playing mitsu against raph and doing exactly that...i fear more step 22A).
Step A is beatable by SEA

This with some spacing....at close range instead there r so many characters that can shut off all mixup but prepA that is a suicide even to think.
For ex Mitsu can FC1BB,33B ALL prepmixup VE entering included.
He just risk a prep A in normal hit that is really low damage.

Close range i use just 2K, 6K, AB/AA/A3K, or the godly 6A,6B/3A trap.
i could even use 2A or 2B but not 3B for sure
If i understand what u are saying

There was i time i tested a lot VE against Asta.....and i could reverse ringout his Bullrush and 6K with VE K (against one of the strongest known asta)unfortunately he is a dumbass and i quit even talking to him even before managing to understand the proper spacing (otherwise both will whiff but VEK takes more time to get to neutral).

@shenri: the fact that raph has not pressing tools is clear to all, but he needs to bait enemy pressure....he is the defensive character with strong punish tools but his attack sucks so much, that if your oppo play 100% safe its very difficult to do anything....and that is the problem....lot of players know that :( and plays according
Fot TP there are lot of common follow up with heavy blockstun that you can make whiff, its a situation of HUGE risk, decent reward but only against few chars.

Today I found a wallsplat combo against Mitsu. (And I figured out Vurkolak B:B. Yay.)

I have successfully linked 33K, W! into 33K, W! into 33K again. This 33K did not wallsplat, but, yes: this means a 3~Prep A, prep combo is possible in place of that 33K. Should come to 90+ damage, right?

I was able to repeat the triple link once, and I was able to get the W! into 33K fairly frequently. It seems the important thing for either is getting Raphael at least somewhat closer to the wall than the orthogonal. It's the only way his foot will get into the opponent's space before the crumple pushes Raph out.
I remembered someone being unsure about a double 33K, so I'm posting up.

If that's not new: Are you guys able to VE B:B out of Vurkolak's evade step? It's the most guaranteed damage, but it's hard to time my first attack. I figure I'll just keep on with free VE A. How much should I work at this (given I do *gasp* play other characters now)?

EDIT: I forgot to mention: I also determined that 1BB CH puts you at +0. Mitsu's B is i15, right? It traded with 2K every time, was interrupted by 4K, and beat Raph's BB. EDIT: Wait, this was the training mode Mitsu, so maybe it hesitated. I am a silly salamander who can't trust training mode. But it was consistently doing the B on modified frame 15, because I was forced to block when I had it block 6BB. I'll check again anyway.

hitting B:B after an autoevade from VE is actually not as tough (depending how many b-buttons you have bound hehe) as it seems, but it is really risky. You risk missing the JF, the fact that VE has 0 alignment after an auto-evade step which means you can likely whiff, and you sacrifice VE A's incredible + frame on hit mixups (in place of grounded mixup).

Did the frame testing properly; Raph's 1BB CH puts him at whatever the difference is of his 2K from Mitsu's 6B. Me, controlling Mitsu, traded with the recorded 2K every time.

I also managed to wallsplat three times with 33K (actually 99K; I sucked with 33K), hitting 33K four times in that combo. :\ Pretty sure this is doable by this point. In case it matters, it was on the stage (I embarrassingly do not recall the name) of a walled circle cathedral-like room. And yet I couldn't actually get the 3. Could be poor luck, and I just don't see why the hitbox and timing would fail me.

Why would the number of Bs I have matter? :\ I'm playing on pad, so mashing isn't an option at all.

i'm playing on a pad (i dont have guard as a face button, replaced it with another B) so i can slide across the B to more easily reach the JF timing. Thats why it matters.

I read that heavy discussion on prep, and it made me think of something I had considered a while ago and never implemented. I don't play Raph, only against, usually with Voldo. Usually my strategy against prep is to sometimes use a TC mid, which gives me big damage against anything other than prep A and has me eating big damage against prep A. I mix this up with just blocking hoping to catch prep A on block, although online its basically impossible to punish this with 6:6B so I don't get much.

This is what a lot of people do I guess, either that or step if Raph is entering prep at disadvantage. I thought that I had instead was this: just crouch and don't do anything at first. You are offering to eat prep A on normal hit, which is 8 damage and -6 frames for Raph. This seems like a good deal; +6 is enough advantage to apply a mixup that is probably worth more than 8 damage on average. Raph doesn't have any other options either, his only other PREP mid is i30 and can be blocked on reaction and punished. Also after prep A Raph is probably within grab range so he has to face a pretty strong mixup. If he stops prep, or tries to go to SEA or something then you can easily attack from crouch and interrupt anything he's going to do.

While obviously Raph's opponent doesn't get as much damage potential, you are completely shutting down his offense here which is advantageous. You can also mix up crouch blocking with standing blocks very occasionally for free damage off prep A, and to bait him to use prep B which will give you free damage when you are crouching. With this defensive strategy, you are 100% sure that Raph nevers gets CH prep A. What do Raph players think?

while crouching and waiting is probably the easiest thing for the opponent, as long as the opponent stays linear raph is generally fine.

1) if raph enters SEA, you should be able to try to beat him while you are in FC because most characters have a decent 2A from crouch. However, if you are even a bit slow, you eat a lot of damage from SEA (B) CH.

2) prep into VE is actually very vulnerable to the crouch-n-wait strat, unless you mistakening try to do a wrB move. This shouldn't happen unless wrB is your fastest interrupt from crouch, as the threat of a delayed prep A or SEA B should smarten you up to only go for your fastest interrupt. Besides, since some wr moves actually stop TCing before they impact, means there is a chance the 2nd hit of prepBB will snag em (dont rely on this though, but just be prepared if it happens)

2) if raph goes into empty prep at best it becomes a 60/40 guess, because empty prep actually ends pretty quickly AND you can't try to interrupt his advancing movement with a high. You'll probably net a BB if you "guess", and if you try to react raph will likely only be put into a mix-up.

3) no prep, for moves like 3B becomes really good, because they can follow with another 3B (unless your character has an awesome TS from crouch) it becomes just a SG chipping game. If you are patient enough to make the raph try something else then i think you win in the exchange, but otherwise you're just crouching, then standing guard and repeating the pattern.

crouching imo only stops the brain-dead basic transistions that raph can apply, and force him to think outside his usual shenangians (not neccesarily less safe). So, no, i dont' think it shuts down his offense completely, it just stops him for going with the quick-pressure from prepBB or prepA, which at most should be used only 2/3 of the time (imo) you even enter prep on block.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but what you wrote didn't exactly convince me it's a bad strategy. In 1) (PS thanks for organizing your response so well) you basically agree that it should be interruptable.The margin for error isn't huge, but just because you only have a few frames margin for error doesn't mean it can't be duplicated consistently. Similarly with 2), you do have time to interrupt. With your second 2) (just saw that haha) I'm not claiming you can punish empty prep, but you definitely get a mixup. I think your major claim though is that the Raph player can just stop using prep and do 3B (rather than 3). I think the animations are pretty distinct. Clearly you wouldn't get to punish 3B, however I don't think the "psychological" frames gained by not going into prep would make up for the -14 and give Raph such a big advantage he could 3B again with confidence. If this were the case, then characters could constantly spam parts of strings and stay at advantage, i.e. instead of BB on block, just do B and then attack again. This kind of trick is usable occasionally (and you see people use it occasionally) but if you keep pushing it usually you lose. An example I'm familiar with is Amy's 3B/3BA. Sure you can 3B, pause instead of doing 3BA, then do 3BA, etc etc. But these tricks don't usually far well against more experienced players.

Another point I want to make is that when prep entry moves are blocked, there may be better options, i.e. step is a very good option against prep on block. When you are facing prep at disadvantage however i.e. after 3 ~ Preb B where Raph has +10 back into prep, this may be a more attractive option. Against prep on disadvantage or neutral, it seems like step -> 2A beats everything, no?

Nirf said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but what you wrote didn't exactly convince me it's a bad strategy. In 1) (PS thanks for organizing your response so well) you basically agree that it should be interruptable.The margin for error isn't huge, but just because you only have a few frames margin for error doesn't mean it can't be duplicated consistently.

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Really ? i'm basically saying that if your strat is to iFC, then wait a bit to either eat the prepA, duck the prepBB or to FC 2A any VE or SEA then your reward is basically minor damage into a FC mixup. For raph yeah that's annoying but definately not the end of the world. You actually are outta grab range once you eat prepA when crouching on NH

I think your major claim though is that the Raph player can just stop using prep and do 3B (rather than 3). I think the animations are pretty distinct. Clearly you wouldn't get to punish 3B, however I don't think the "psychological" frames gained by not going into prep would make up for the -14 and give Raph such a big advantage he could 3B again with confidence. If this were the case, then characters could constantly spam parts of strings and stay at advantage, i.e. instead of BB on block, just do B and then attack again. This kind of trick is usable occasionally (and you see people use it occasionally) but if you keep pushing it usually you lose. An example I'm familiar with is Amy's 3B/3BA. Sure you can 3B, pause instead of doing 3BA, then do 3BA, etc etc. But these tricks don't usually far well against more experienced players.

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The difference is that B/BB strings are that you basically are standing guard. You're suggesting to go into FC and then wait and see.

IF you see 3B into nothing.. what will you do ? Its not like you're up close because the pushback is so great. If you think he'll 3B again you can try to interrupt but you better make sure you can reach him if he decides to just stand there and bait your whiff. Stepping from crouch is a lil tougher (definately doable) but again all you're doing is defensive movement (crouch into step) which basically won't win you the game unless you step his move and punish. And if you start to try to interrupt too early you're vulnerable to prepA .. all over again.

In a nutshell what i'm saying is your wr/fc option better be long ranged and fast, or you better have a good TS move from crouch.