Aluminum Foil Hat Time! Conspiracy Theories?

senzait said:
A RE-action is an action. Your not disproving anything King Ace said with this statement. Reactions to stimuli go beyond the initial "pushing back" and actually completely affect present and future of their environment, hence what King ace was saying about the "Domino effect" or the "Butterfly effect". One action leads to a re-action which leads to a re-action to that action and so on.
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A reaction in the colloquial sense is just an action. A reaction in the sense that Kingace invoked draws from the wording of Newton's 3rd law which is the definition I noted.

This paragraph makes no sense. You accepted the fact that the coin toss is not random but actually based on the conditions the coin was exposed to pre-toss and while in motion, Then you just go back to saying that this randomness truly is random anyway???. Just because the amount of variables is virtually infinite and calculating it precisely is IMPOSSIBLE on a human scale does not make it truly random.
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I mentioned the true randomness of the coin flip as a side note. Under classical understanding, the flip is determined. However, quantum mechanics does claim that particle behavior is random. When you get to very large bodies moving slowly like coins, the probability of things behaving not classically is not zero, but extremely small. Delving deeply into quantum physics wasn't particularly necessary, but I put it out there as something to consider. Even then, the behavior of the coin is more or less fixed, in that the probability distribution is quite defined.

It is impossible to imagine a truly fair coin toss because there isn't and never will be such a thing. You might as well say lets imagine that in a universe with different laws and rules a coin was tossed and its result was completely variable. Ya I guess I can imagine it but in no way does it relate to my reality or this argument. The concept of true randomness as stated by KingAce does not entertain possibilities within a certain domain, because the existence of such certain domain contradicts the idea in itself. You cant have TRUE randomness if you already know what the possible results are.
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There have never been unicorns, nor will there ever be unicorns. Yet I can imagine a unicorn. If you can't imagine unicorns or perfectly random coins, then I don't know what to say.

The toss of a perfectly random coin is truly random if there is a 50% chance of it landing heads, and a 50% chance of it landing tails. You can also say that it can randomly turn into a unicorn. But the probability of that in our distribution is zero, so we don't really talk about that case. Saying that coin tosses are actually determined doesn't mean we can't understand randomness.

Randomness only makes sense with respect to a probability distribution. Why should a person assume a distribution where a coin has a non-zero chance of turning into a unicorn over a distribution where a coin has a zero chance just because he is an atheist? Both distributions can be "truly random." Just because one distribution has a non-zero chance of X event happening doesn't make it more truly random.

The point of my post, anyways, was to just set things straight about science that KingAce is wrongly using to advance his argument. If you don't understand the premises you are arguing on, it's probable that you don't really understand whether your argument is a good one in the first place.
 
iKotomi said:
You can also say that it can randomly turn into a unicorn. But the probability of that in our distribution is zero, so we don't really talk about that case. Saying that coin tosses are actually determined doesn't mean we can't understand randomness.
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You said so yourself that particle behavior is random according to quantum mechanics. Well if you take Quantum physics into account than no, the chance of that coin turning into a horse (since unicorns dont exist) is not zero. Though its infinitesimally small, there is a chance an inexplicable event happens and the coin for example disappears. For all intensive purposes though one can't take that into account, but that would be an example of true randomness.

iKotomi said:
A reaction in the colloquial sense is just an action. A reaction in the sense that Kingace invoked draws from the wording of Newton's 3rd law which is the definition I noted.
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Actually even as Newton's third law is concerned, the reaction is actually an action. So much so that naming one action and the other reaction is completely arbitrary, since the action could actually be called the reaction and the reaction the action.

iKotomi said:
Randomness only makes sense with respect to a probability distribution. Why should a person assume a distribution where a coin has a non-zero chance of turning into a unicorn over a distribution where a coin has a zero chance just because he is an atheist? Both distributions can be "truly random." Just because one distribution has a non-zero chance of X event happening doesn't make it more truly random.
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Im not really going to argue the religion part of it, though I agree with you that believing or not in randomness is not a measure of Atheism. But I still don't agree with true randomness respecting probability distribution. In itself true randomness is completely inexplicable IMO. For example again the motion of quantum particles has to be considered truly random at times, because there is no way of explaining such motion.
 
Yes I have the same problem except it also bleeds all over my clothes. Stop looking at bullshit in the sky and fix my fucking washing machine.

I don't have any clean underwear and you fucks are talking about aliens and shit.
 
Gentles and ladymen, I present Mel's Hole.

For any Art Bell fans you know this is one of his classic sets of interviews. Art really was a master interview; always entertaining, always interesting, and he brought the most out of every guest. This shit was so listenable and fascinating at the time, and still is now.

PS. Mel's Hole is 100% bullshit. A hoax. But fuck me if it wasn't some good radio.
 
iKotomi said:
KingAce, every time you talk about science or math, kittens cry.


Having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of an inverse conclusion.



This is not what reaction means. Reaction is the opposite action on the acting agent. When I push on you, you are simultaneously pushing back on me. What you are talking about is just action.



I'm not sure how not believing that God is the cause of the universe leads to believing that everything is random.

As for the contradiction you seem to think exists regarding the big bang, before the big bang, the laws of nature could not possibly hold, and we can't know anything about what the laws were. It makes absolutely no sense to say that the big bang contradicts the laws of nature, because the laws of nature did not exist yet.

Everything after the big bang, however, was governed by the laws of nature and there is no real evidence to suggest that anything but nature has ruled since. Believing that everything is governed by the laws of nature hardly seems like believing that everything is random.

Secondly, your conception of random is wrong. A coin flip is not quite random in the sense that the coin's motion is quite determined by the conditions that were set as it was flipped. If you want, you can say that the coin flip is still random in a quantum framework, but with a 99.9999999999... percent chance of behaving in a classical manner, and this randomness truly is random as far as we can tell.

But that aside, it is not impossible to imagine a truly fair coin that has a 50% chance of landing heads or tails, and we talk a lot about these theoretical coins. But note what's going on here. The coin has a truly random distribution between two states. Just because the result is random doesn't mean that you entertain the idea that the coin turns into a unicorn. You only entertain the possibilities within the domain of the distribution you are given.

Not like any of this really matters. By all means believe in your God, just leave pseudo-science out of the argument. Not only does it not help prove something that is not really in the realm of reason, but it just makes you look dumb.
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Okay. I like the shots you take at me every time you get a chance BTW...makes your argument much stronger.

Outside of motion, a reaction is also an action the sequence doesn't stop there.

Now we both support the big bang theory in so far as it happened. However I side with the premise of a force behind the event. While you side with what exactly? Randomness.

That is where my views and yours collide.

Despite our lack of ability to calculate an outcome with complete accuracy in certain systems, because of the numerous variables affecting said system, the end result isn't random. The end result is determined by the variables themselves. If we could account for all those variables, who could predict any number of coin flips.
 
You should see my 12 step plan for when the zombies come. I am so very prepared for that shit.

Here's another awesome Art Bell call.


I remember listening to this live. It was the coolest thing.

So, this guy, as the video said, called in on the special "Area 51" line that Art had open that night, taking calls either from people in Area 51, or who had worked there. This dude calls up half way through the show and starts babbling about aliens and shit, and during the call the ENTIRE radio show went off air. I'm talking an internationally syndicated show with millions of listeners. The whole network was off air for a good 15 or 20 minutes. The call was later immortalized in a Tool song.

 
page said:
You should see my 12 step plan for when the zombies come. I am so very prepared for that shit.

Here's another awesome Art Bell call.


I remember listening to this live. It was the coolest thing.

So, this guy, as the video said, called in on the special "Area 51" line that Art had open that night, taking calls either from people in Area 51, or who had worked there. This dude calls up half way through the show and starts babbling about aliens and shit, and half way through the call the ENTIRE radio show was shut down. I'm talking an internationally syndicated show airing all over the world, with millions of listeners. The whole network was off air for a good 15 or 20 minutes. The call was later immortalized in a Tool song.

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yeah that call is on the link i posted ;) actually that's part of the video i posted.hahaha
 
Which shows a lot, since that call was proven to be a hoax (the guy called up later and admitted it was a fake) over 10 years ago. Helps put the rest of the stuff in that video into perspective.

I stopped watching it before it got to the call; the silly music was over-the-top even for me.
 
have you heard about battle LA? I'm not talkin the movie either.
also, I believe in exterrestrial life. this universe is too old and too huge to think otherwise. The possibilities of them being smart enough for intergalatic travel is there too. it's all averages.

also... apophis is coming..... be prepared!
 
The World War 2 stuff? A whole lot of nothing blown out of proportion 40 years later by dudes who wanted to sell books.
 
makes sense. the skeptic in me can be satisfied with that answer. me as a person however needs a better reason than a whole lot of nothing. what was the actual cause of it?
 
The official explanation was war nerves. People thought they saw things they didn't see and went a little nuts. World War 2 is full of that stuff, from Foo Fighters on down.
 
ah. makes sense. I also heard the Jeruslaem rock was a hoax as well. still looking for info on the Moscow and china (airport) sitings though... I remember seeing that on korean news. kinda trippy.
 
here's the real question though... you lookin forward to apophis? damn the aliens.. you need to worry about apophis...


actually there isn't much to worry about these days but you can best believe, I'll be looking up in the skies on that day. and god forbid it pass through that keyhole... april 13, 2029.. remember this date.
 
Madnis said:
here's the real question though... you lookin forward to apophis? damn the aliens.. you need to worry about apophis...


actually there isn't much to worry about these days but you can best believe, I'll be looking up in the skies on that day. and god forbid it pass through that keyhole... april 13, 2029.. remember this date.
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If it goes through that keyhole, watch those property values drop. Also. Scary stuff. I'd heard about apophis a few years ago on a documentary about space a few years back in the "disasters of space" segment. *cue dramatic music, narrator shouts "APOPHIS"!!!* And hearing Neil DeGrass Tyson's concerned is not comforting. I wonder if they'd even tell us if it passed through the "keyhole".
 
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