I posted this in the Tier Discussion but it was waaaay too big and felt it invaded the thread by taking up an entire page so I'm posting it here instead. I also added a poll. I expect to be called a called a massive dumb ass but I'm honestly curious about what a high level gaming community has to think about what I discuss below. I have more or less a question now regarding this thread's topic in a general premise. The thread is for Tier discussion. I assume this is to discuss and speculate what the current Tiers are. Again, I assume this is far too early especially considering a rebalance patch came out mere months ago. Note: I have somewhat taken a seat from SC a little after the re-balance patch. Q: Has there been any announcement of another patch or update to game play, not simply content like maps or customizable stuff? As I read over the last few pages of this post many people are constantly referring to buffing or nerfing characters. So shouldn't it be focusing more so on what the definitive tier list is as of right now? Allow me to mention back to my Q above; if there has been any official and definitive announcements of another real update then my statement of focusing on a definitive tier list as of now is null. Now, allow me to go off in a mild tangent. I am a firm believer and a big fan of balance especially when it comes to fighting games. Unfortunately I have played many games where something is far more dominant than something else. I'm going to use the tier list below because I simply have not been around for a while and have not done the technical research to justify any personal claims of tier list placement... I cut the remaining to simply use this list for reference. Shouldn't the list be as linear as possible? Let me make a few examples under the following premise: Both players have the EXACT same skill level. Essentially, I want the players abilities taken out of the picture. If Raph is truly F tier; ie that bad, if he were to play against anyone above him he should lose. I'll make up some numbers as well. S vs F tier = 100% chance of losing for F tier A vs F tier = 80% chance of loss for F tier B vs F tier = 60 % chance of loss for F tier C vs F tier = 40% chance of loss for F tier D vs F tier = 20% chance of loss for F tier E vs F tier = <20% chance of loss for F tier I know this looks silly but at the very least humor me. If the tiers were very significant which I've felt they are in certain aspects; this includes other games, then my haphazardly made percentages are plausible. Therefore, Raph should lose to all S tier characters like.... always and YES I know that is not the case but if tiers are in fact significant then the odds of Raph beating an S tier is slim to none. There are simply things he has cannot compete with when stacked up against the S tier characters. Note: I am using Raph as an example simply because he is on the bottom of the tier list I've decided to use as an example. This trend continues if it's Raph vs any of the A tiers, B tiers, etc. No matter what he's got a massive uphill battle that according to the tiers he should not be winning. So if we were to actually focus upon re-balancing we should we trying to nerf or buff everyone until there is one tier. It shouldn't be focusing one or two characters. That makes me feel like people are falling into a trend of favoritism. "Oh well I played Nightmare in the last game and he was god tier. He's only C tier now, he should be buffed back to where he was." Note: Nightmare was an example. I don't know of his tier placement in the SC4, I've forgotten. I suppose I could just say Sophitia and Pyrrah/Pyrrah omega instead but what was on top seemed to have stayed on top. Again, if I'm wrong/inaccurate I apologize. In my opinion all characters should be nerfed or buffed to an extreme level until the tiers are near subliminal. There should not be tiers with a few characters on them. Ideally there should be 1 tier; EG perfect balance, but that won't happen. But there most certainly shouldn't be a small number of characters that stick out for some reason. I honestly don't know if Raph is 'THAT' bad but if he is that's pathetic on the developers part. In addition, the S and A tiers should not be that much better than the lower tiers. If I had to recommend a re-balance method I would most likely merge everyone into the B or C tier. For example let's say I decide to merge into B. S and A tiers need significant debuffs until they are on par with the B tier. C, D, E, and F tiers need massive buffs to be able to be on par with the B tier. Now, if this occurred then this game would completely rely upon player skill which I would love but that won't happen. Note: My current recommendations on tier is based upon my premise that tiers are entirely dependent upon the move list frame data and properties. By properties I mean tech traps, NC strings, jF capabilities, Guard break, aGI's etc. Now, if all characters were balanced upon that standard that would leave another manner of unbalance but this one would not and should not be corrected to keep the game unique. This manner of unbalance would be character match ups. Naturally some characters will have stronger points than others but this would be specific per character. Example (This will be a poor one and incorrect. It's simply to enforce the point.): Raph vs Lexia = In Lexia's favor. Lexia has many auto evades so she can easily avoid many of his attacks. In addition lets just say she has an aGI that can counter the majority of Raph's moves. So this is a bad match up for Raph. Note: Again, let me remind you these examples are not meant to be accurate or truthful, simply to enforce a point. Lexia vs Asta = In Asta's favor. Asta has many mid hitting horizontal and vertical moves. He also has great range and massive damage. Asta vs Raph = In Raphs favor. Raph has speed, decent range. He can keep Asta at bay and such. Note: AGAIN, not accurate info, simply to get the point across. So to recap, if we are discussing tiers, why not focus on the current tiers. Yes, the game is clearly unbalanced. To what degree? That is debatable but the way I see it if the game was rather balanced, the tiers would show little diversity. If we were to focus on things that need to be done then why not focus on the big picture. Not just one or two characters which in many cases I feel are biased. Note: I fully understand wanting to buff or debuff a few characters but I feel the reason is either to save someones character, debuff someones worst match up, or to revert the game to an older edition of Soul Calibur. Or in other words, "Ivy was so great in SC2, she should be buffed until she's like old Ivy and S/A tier again!" (The quote was an example, not an accurate fact.) Now, I know this post was massive but I hope I get some decent feedback from my post. I figure that if there is no more updates/patches coming give up on changes and work with what you have. We're gonna need a real definitive tier list from what we have here. If there is an update coming that we can influence 'AT ALL' then we should focus on what needs to be done to truly balance this game.