Move Analysis: 2KKKKK

Discussion in 'Siegfried' started by Heaton, Apr 7, 2012.

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  1. Heaton

    Heaton I'm Bane

    PSN:
    Kestryel
    Silence! Getting All Five Hits

    This is all any of us want from this move - all five stomps connecting, giving that powerful, invigorating feeling of accomplishment and triumph over your opponent. As we know, however, getting all five hits is much more difficult than it used to be on account of Siegfried sliding back ever so slightly with each stomp.

    CH 66K ~ W! gives a possible stomping scenario if Siegfried is slightly off-center of the wall where his right side is closer to the wall. If his left side is closer, or he is perfectly perpendicular to the wall, the stomps will whiff and give your opponent opportunity to punish you. Note that if Siegfried is too close to the right wall - that is, parallel or near-parallel - the stomps will also whiff and leave you open. I urge you to go into Training Mode to experiment and better understand the exact positioning I'm referring to. At this angle, 3(B) will generally not re-wall splat, and 2KKKKK is the optimal choice for damage.

    The utilization of 2KKKKK differs depending on when you start stomping them. There are two options available to you:
    1. while they are still standing, which will give you a stun if all five stomps connect
    2. while they are grounded, which keeps them grounded for as many stomps as you connect
    The first situation is the one you want to get, as it allows for the most consistent damage possible. You can get some good damage off of combos, and some extremely good damage off of tech traps.

    Code:
    Starter is CH 66K ~ W!
     
    2KKKKK ~ 66B                                                    75 damage / 79 damage Clean Hit
    2KKKKK ~ 2*8B+K ~ SCH B                                        77 damage
    2KKKKK ~ B+K ~ SBH k(BE)                                        82 damage / 0.5 meter
    2KKKKK ~ 22BB                                                  86 damage*
    2KKKKK ~ CE                                                    94 damage / 1.0 meter
     
    2KKKKK ~ 66B                                                  115 damage / 126 damage Clean Hit
    2KKKKK ~ (Delay) 3A ~ 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE)                      166 (Right) / 171 (Front) / 187 (Back) damage
    2KKKKK ~ G ~ 3A ~ W! ~ 6K ~ W! ~ A+G*B+G                      150 damage (Left Tech Only)
    2KKKKK ~ G ~ 3A ~ W! ~ 3(B) ~ W! ~ SCH B ~ CE                  185 damage (Left Tech Only)
    2KKKKK ~ G ~ 3A ~ W! ~ 6B ~ W! ~ 66k(BE) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ CE      195 damage / 2.0 meter (Left Tech Only)
     
    *Must use 22 input - 88 whiffs miraculously
    I honestly think there might be even more damage possible with that Left Tech re-wall splat combo, but I'm not the best at doing combos except by accident - I'll leave that for anyone else to try and unearth. Still, I'm assuming most of you didn't expect any combo that had 2K anywhere in it to break even 70 damage - I know I certainly didn't.

    The second situation - where the stomps are all done on a grounded opponent - is definitely not the situation you want to be looking for, since there are almost always more damaging, safer options around. However, there is one oddball, one-in-a-million chance where you can hit it:

    66A ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK - 71 damage (must be perfectly perpendicular to wall)

    This is actually the best damage you can get off of this wall splat without spending meter on a CE. 2KKKKK is also guaranteed post SBH A if you hit from up close, but the maximum amount of stomps I've gotten is only four, and I spent about ten minutes of really stupid positioning trying to figure out just how to get above three. The point being - stomping an already grounded opponent is almost always going to turn out poorly for you.

    The last scenario I thought stomping could possibly be useful in is against Leixia's Crybaby (While Grounded A+B). I was very much disappointed. In the event that she tries to do it twice, or she blocks high in anticipation of a ground hitting mid, you will only get two stomps maximum before Siegfried slides away like the smooth criminal he is. I haven't studied anti-Leixia in depth, but I can tell you that 2KKKKK is not the answer.

    In conclusion, this move has changed drastically from past iterations, and is nearly useless now. It does have one niche use after certain perfectly angled wall splats, and since fishing for CH 66K near a wall is not a bad idea in nearly any circumstance, it might be worth it to try to set it up and see if you can hit it. Make sure that you recognize the exact angle you have to be at for all of the stomps to hit - otherwise you're going to be eating some big really damage that should have been for your opponent.

    ---------------------------------------------------------​

    UPDATE - December 13th, 2012

    You can use 2KKKKK to hurt people badly at the wall. This is off 88A, which is great because you're probably already using this to fish for wall hits anyway. What you want to do is hit 88A and the subsequent 3B at such an angle that you're ever so slightly to Siegfried's left of them, while still on axis enough that the 3(B) gives you the high wall splat. When you do the 2KKKKK, you're going to end up stomping mostly on their rear calf, because it's the only part sticking out from their hitbox. For some, you can end up stomping across their entire body - experiment and see what angle is consistent for which character.

    In my opinion it's easiest to start out on α Patroklos, Algol, Astaroth, or Mitsurugi, though you can do it on all of the characters listed below:

    Code:
    α Patroklos*
    Aeon**
    Astaroth
    Cervantes
    Ezio Auditore
    Hilde
    Maxi
    Mitsurugi
    Tira***
    Voldo
    Xiba
    Yoshimitsu
    Z.W.E.I.
     
    *He moonwalks with you! Looks super jank.
    **Requires a different angle compared to others; think a little more parallel with him
    ***Jolly only
    Here's a combo list, with regular BnBs listed for comparison:
    Code:
    Starter is 88A ~ W!
     
    - 6K ~ W! ~ Back Throw                            92 damage
    - 66K ~ W! ~ Back Throw                            94 damage
    - 3(B)~ W! ~ G ~ WR (B) ~ SCH B                    96 damage
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 6B+K ~ SRSH B ~ 22BB                99 damage
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 4B+K ~ SSH BBB                      101 damage
     
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B                        102 damage
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ A+B                        104 damage
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE)        119 damage
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B (tech)                132 damage
    - 3(B) ~ W! ~ 2KKKKK ~ 66B (tech) ~ W! ~ CE      203 damage
    The Rationale Behind Nerfing

    The best I can speculate is that 2KKKKK made Siegfried really god damn obnoxious at the wall. To be fair, he still is - the damage difference between current BnBs and 2KKKKK combos aren't all that different. That is, they're not all that different until you take into account Clean Hits and meter options. 66B has a Clean Hit rate of B, which is fairly often, and 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE) does 20 damage more than SSH BBB or 66B enders for either combos. Not to mention, the tech traps off of 2KKKKK quickly reach ludicrous levels of meterless damage.

    Thus, instead of nerfing the combo enders and possibly ruining them elsewhere, they nerfed the move that gave these situations - 2KKKKK. It wouldn't be too big of a deal, since he still has a serviceable low okizeme tool in 1K, and he doesn't lose too much damage from the wall combo damage, since he has SSH BBB. So nerfing 2KKKKK was probably the logical nerfing choice for trying to reign in his wall combo damage without neutering him too much in other areas.

    At least, it WOULD be logical if they didn't nerf 2A+B in a subsequent patch. =P
     
    Habast likes this.
  2. Uber1337

    Uber1337 [10] Knight

    wow, now thats dedication. You did that much research on something that useless. I commend you sir.

    Maybe I should write a Maxi 3A guide.
     
    Solo, MKHSpartan and HRD like this.
  3. Heaton

    Heaton I'm Bane

    PSN:
    Kestryel
    I like to think that every move has a purpose. This move is literally useless in every other application I've tried beforehand, and I know that Project Soul wouldn't leave in useless moves for the sake of nostalgia or to appease casuals who think that gigantic movesets are directly equivalent to the quality of the game, so all I did was take a bit of dedication and hard work into training mode, and two hours later I came out with that.

    I'm also taking ideas for the next one, since I really want to do a move that isn't SRSH A, but can't really decide.
     
    Habast likes this.
  4. ChaosK

    ChaosK [13] Hero

    PSN:
    ChaosK
    I really hope they fix that move in the next patch. I have the impression that something went wrong with it, that wasn't intended. Btw is it just me or does the last hit always have a stun? (i just managed to get the 5th hit once for the sake of my life)

    In terms of new ideas - do one for 66A+B, that move might be underestimated.
     
  5. SirJohnny

    SirJohnny [01] Neophyte

    Yes, this is great stuff, what a resolution. Finally a way to use that awesome groundstomp string.
    Humiliating other players at its finest. Definately will use this stuff whenever I get the chance.

    Also, a cool move analysis would be 66K, rarely ever use this move, but it's a tech jump + ridiculous knockback on normalt hit. It might have uses.
     
  6. Solo

    Solo [14] Master

    XBL:
    SoloT4
    No, that's 44K. 66K is a shoulder bump that KD's on CH. Just letting you know. :D

    Other things: I think an analysis of 1A and 22ka:2A would be pretty sweet.
     
  7. kingkaba

    kingkaba [04] Fighter

    LOL in the guide they listed the properties of 2KKKKK as "SHIT"

    god that made my day
     
    Reave, MKHSpartan and Slade like this.
  8. Mandy

    Mandy Yes, a guy.

    XBL:
    MandyFU
    I use it primarily for stomping on my opponent after winning... and even then it whiffs a lot.
     
  9. Stryker

    Stryker [10] Knight

    PSN:
    StrykerDR
    This move is totally useless to me(even after this effort from Heaton)... is Siegfried some kind of Michael Jackson fan to do moon_walking? this move would be intended to punish grounded opponents who wants to roll out of our reach like a worms; this move have to be like in SC1: 2[K] = 1 GB stomp and you can continue stomping if the hit is confirmed; tracks grounded opponents to the right side exactly where the foot is raised...

    I don't know what is happening in Project Soul; they give us a god tier 3B and 22_88 A and a set of additional moves to mix with those ones? to me a move that works in previous games and doesn't work anymore is worst than a new move with no particular use -___________-
     
  10. ChaosK

    ChaosK [13] Hero

    PSN:
    ChaosK
    Lets look at the stats.
    Its an i21 ultra close range low for 12 damage, that is -7 on hit. For some reason that is beyond my understanding, someone decided it also should be launcher punishable at -18 on block.
    I cant help but think someone messed up with this move on the dev's part and it indeed was designed to be a NC on grounded opponents.

    I honestly have my hopes high for it to get fixed with the next patch.
    Right now my (unreasonable) inner salty scrub makes me feel like this is the worst move ever.
    [/QQing]
     
  11. Solo

    Solo [14] Master

    XBL:
    SoloT4
    It is the worst move ever. Lol
     
  12. Heaton

    Heaton I'm Bane

    PSN:
    Kestryel
    Don't get me wrong: this move is horrible. It DOES have a use, however, and if you ever do get those 195 damage tech traps off in a real match, people are gonna get hype.
     
    MKHSpartan and ChaosK like this.
  13. ChaosK

    ChaosK [13] Hero

    PSN:
    ChaosK
    It actually has a second unrealistic use. It works against Sieg/NM's 44K as a punisher after JG. All 5 hits will work on siegfried and 4 of the 5 will hit against NM (4th hit will whiff, the 5th hit will still connect nonetheless).

    Funny fact: Against Nm, instead of "silence!", he says "Time to die!".
     
  14. NDK

    NDK [12] Conqueror

    PSN:
    NDK_NorCal
    What a joke
     
    Solo and Heaton like this.
  15. MKHSpartan

    MKHSpartan [12] Conqueror

    If they patch this move my oki will move from 3B, 1K to 3B, 1K and 2KKKKK! Two for tracking rollers with 2K being potentially rather nice damage. (Assuming 2K has any roll track ability)
     
  16. ChaosK

    ChaosK [13] Hero

    PSN:
    ChaosK
    It does track rollers :)
    You should implement 66B against rollers though, its pretty good. One of the few moves of sieg, that still has some pretty good tracking. SBH B is a well tracking option as well.
     
  17. Solo

    Solo [14] Master

    XBL:
    SoloT4
    I miss SCIV Sieg oki. QQ

    On Topic: I hear 66A+B is good for rollers too, I need to mess around with it for myself.
     
  18. MKHSpartan

    MKHSpartan [12] Conqueror

    Yea I use it for long range rollers just on close range I feel so open... But I am liking it more each time built in step, breaks in 7 I think, all right damage, nice tracking... but -22 hurts make it -16 like Nightmare and I would be very happy with it hehe.
     
  19. Solo

    Solo [14] Master

    XBL:
    SoloT4
    I think it's funny how on all shared moves between Sieg and NM, Sieg's are less safe even though NM's have more reach and usually do more damage. 44K is included in this. Lol
     
  20. MKHSpartan

    MKHSpartan [12] Conqueror

    I know right even some of Nightmare's do more damage for they same or better things eg aga, NM's 22B to Sieg's 66B, Dropkicks!, unsure about 66A+B and probably more. Only thing I can say is after NM's throws got nerfed Sieg has better throw damage! Lol.
     
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