Natsu Questions And Answers / General Discussion

Yooooo @Hawkeye hit is up with those resets and setups you were talking about pre winter brawl, it's mad stale in here.

Oh also, TxA 66b and a:6 do not give the same wakeup, on a:6 you have enough time to land a 44k if they don't tech in some situations, which is never the case with 66b. A:6 non wall hit but near a wall/edge has disgusting oki.
 
I would like to suggest an addition to Natsu-specific notation; 'KUZ' or 'kuz' for Kuzukiri (i4a+bA or 2bA), being much easier to type than 'Kuzukiri'. For example:

BBi4a+bA = BBKuzukiri
Replaced with...
BBi4a+bA = BBKUZ (or BBkuz)

This would fit the notation standard well in my opinion. I'll start referring to it by this. (Perhaps it can be added in SC6).
 
I have seen literally no one refer to 4a+bA and 2bA as kuzukiri on these forums, so that would make zero sense. That point of using a standard notation system is to have a system everyone can understand regardless of console, button configs, and move names.
 
I refer to it as Kuzukiri sometimes, but not in notation, there i just use the standard input notation, like Harry said: 4a+bA, 2bA etc.
 
TxA said:
I would like to suggest an addition to Natsu-specific notation
This would fit the notation standard well in my opinion. I'll start referring to it by this.
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Hence why I made this suggestion. Nobody is already using it because I thought it up earlier today. If everyone decided to use this form as shorthand (logical) then everyone would understand. The same principle applies to Yoshi 2aB being referred to as 'MCF'.
Do you actually have something with value to say or?
 
FleshMasher said:
I refer to it as Kuzukiri sometimes, but not in notation, there i just use the standard input notation, like Harry said: 4a+bA, 2bA etc.
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There is no issue with adding an extra character-specific unit to the frame data. Even if it is rarely used, it will still be there as the standard form for others to recognise and understand.
 
What are the keys against Natu's wakeup game? Which of her moves can be followed up with unblockable bombs and should not be teched? I want to avoid getting hit by a beefy 1A while grounded, but I also don't want to get relaunched by bombs.

If pink bomb is used as combo ender, how to minimize the damage taken from the possession mix up?
 
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MuffinMan123 said:
What are the keys against Natu's wakeup game? Which of her moves can be followed up with unblockable bombs and should not be teched? I want to avoid getting hit by a beefy 1A while grounded, but I also don't want to get relaunched by bombs.
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I think it's possible to stay grounded in case of a bomb, and stand up and guard low in reaction to 1A. She'll still have options like 2KK and k2 that hit grounded and aren't reactable, but their damage isn't too frightening.
In some situations (e.g. after throws), UB bomb is unsafe for her because the opponent can wake up with a jump attack. You miss out on some damage by not learning these situations but it's not a huge deal.
If pink bomb is used as combo ender, how to minimize the damage taken from the possession mix up?
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Slade said:
In some situations (e.g. after throws), UB bomb is unsafe for her because the opponent can wake up with a jump attack.
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In which situations do I have enough time to stand up and jump? Are there videos that explains each situation where Natsu could do a ub bomb or 1A after a knock down and which ones could be escaped?

In the flowchart, what does CCW mean? Tech to my character's right?
 
MuffinMan123 said:
In which situations do I have enough time to stand up and jump? Are there videos that explains each situation where Natsu could do a ub bomb or 1A after a knock down and which ones could be escaped?
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Might be something buried in this thread.
In the flowchart, what does CCW mean? Tech to my character's right?
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Counterclockwise (so yes).
 
Hey, so it looks like I'm late to the party but I'll try helping nonetheless. It looks like you want specifics so brace yourself...:

So in regards to Natsu's okizeme (which is bloody awful but I'm not here to rant about that), 2A+B (UA bomb) and 1A are good options when Natsu makes the read that the opponent is going to roll or tech.

You can get up and block low on 1A after almost every knockdown. After some knockdowns, 1A is guaranteed as a combo ender, so off of KNDs like 3KKK, 66B BE, AC (Air-Catch) A+B, AC A:6 etc. There are some situations where 1A is a combo unless you do a very specific response, e.g. a tech, so for example with her PO A:6 knockdown which you will often see in play as i16 punisher 6A+B4 PO A:6, 1A is a combo if you stay on the ground, but if you tech in any direction you can block it and then punish it hard (it's -26).

2A+B never actually combos, but because it is a fast UA (i45), it's always going to hit people unless they attempt to get up and JG it. The trade-off for this is how weak it is when it hits grounded players, they take something like 10 damage and they get pushed away from Natsu, so it puts them out of danger of further oki. A lot of players choose to take this small damage then get up safely. After a few knockdowns 2A+B will TT (Tech-Trap) for upwards of 75 to 110 damage depending on the combo Natsu does, this is why teching vs. her is usually a very bad idea unless you are confident she isn't going to throw down a bomb or something else that TTs.

4A+B (the pink bomb) is an option that lies somewhere between 1A and 2A+B in terms of its use. It's my preferred oki of choice most of the time because of how damn useful it is and the mix-ups you can force with it. If my opponent can't deal with PO correctly then I'm going to keep throwing 4A+B at them and putting them into uncomfortable situations. On the knockdowns I mentioned for 1A being guaranteed, 4A+B is also guaranteed at those same places, with the differences being slightly less damage, and the fact that it's weaker to tech because it is both slower and it lacks any horizontal aspect to it (1A is a sweeping low whereas 4A+B just comes down vertically).
The thing to watch out for with this move though is it does TT a lot, like if you back-tech after being hit by 66B BE, you will be launched by a 4A+B and end up taking more damage than if you got up into a 2A+B.

Getting out of PO mix-ups:
4A+B6 as oki is the purple bomb then the forward dash. At this point Natsu is in PO so she has to commit to a PO option, or try a dash-cancel, but this basically eliminates her oki advantage and gives time for the opponent to get up and prepare. Each of her PO options is strong in it's own way, but has a counter to it. The problem is a counter for one option might lose to a different option, so it's mix-up city:
PO B+K - block low then punish with FC B, or step then punish with a vertical that hits grounded (standard 3Bs, 2Bs etc.)
PO B - step then heavy punish (you have at least 30 frames of advantage to work with if she whiffs this), alternatively try JGing or GIing it, but it can be delayed so watch out for that.
PO A/A:6 - duck and WR punish (they are both highs), or if she does A:6 you can block punish with an i14 or faster. These will kill step however.
PO K - probably her best option, it beats everything as it is fast (i11), tracks step, has range and can burst. The way to deal with it is to block it then punish as it is -21. PO K and PO B can be used as mix-ups, you either block or step.
HOV B - step it and do a quick punish as it recovers fast.
HOV A - block low. It is safe so you can't punish it.
For both HOV B and HOV A, you can step and block low to avoid both of them, so as soon as you see her go into the air for HOV, do that.


TL;DR:
  1. Teching is almost always a bad idea unless you are confident Natsu isn't going to throw out a bomb or some other TT. Against a wall after her 3KKK knockdown, she can do 44KKK 1A off of the wall for extra damage, but she could do 2A+B if you tried to tech out of it, giving her more damage.
  2. Rolling after being knocked down will protect you from any TT attempts, but you will end up eating 1As and grounded bombs.
  3. Staying down is the same as rolling except you can react to and block 1A if you see it coming. The weakness here is bombs still hit you, but what is even more frightening is that Natsu can do 44KK on you for big damage, or SOTFD (21436B UA) for 70 damage.
  4. During a PO mix-up, step and block low to beat most options. If you keep getting hit by a tracking PO K, block it and punish it with an i21.


General advice for knockdown situations:
  • 66B BE - take the 1A or 4A+B6 PO mix-up.
  • 3KKK - 1A is guaranteed. Against a wall, consider teching to escape 44KKK, but keep in mind the risk of TT 2A+B.
  • PO A:6 - back-tech to escape everything except a well-timed TT 66K for only like 38 damage.
  • AC A:6 (commonly seen as 3B A:6) - same as above, back-tech escapes all except a hard-to-execute TT 66K. Side-tech also escapes a lot of stuff.
  • AC A+B (commonly seen as bomb launch A+B) - take the 1A or 4A+B6 PO mix-up. Teching here is suicide, both bombs will catch techs.
  • A+B - get up blocking, Natsu is too far away to tech-trap or hit you with anything unless she steps forward or tries an unsafe 1A.
  • A:6 - same as above, you are safe to get up.
  • 66B - same as above.
  • 66AB - roll and take whatever she tries. 2A+B will launch you if you get up or try side/front-techs. 4A+B catches back-tech.
  • 44A - back-tech escapes bombs but you will take a non-scaled 6K, so combined 44A 6K is about 54 damage.
  • 44B - safe to get up. Jump the bomb on reaction.
  • 6AK - same as before, except the bomb is harder to jump, but still possible.
  • 6AB - roll, you can't jump the bomb in time if you stand up.

Those are the majority of knockdowns you will take vs. Natsu. If there's something you still need answering then feel free to ask. Maybe some 'experienced' Natsu players learned a thing or two from this as well. ;)
 
Something which I find to be quite disappointing is that every character can seemingly escape out of any follow-up after being NHed by Nat's WR B KUZ, even on a good (or a perfect) input. The escape is Back-Right AC, getting out of every follow-up including 66K and 2A+B, where in all other ACs there will be an option. 66B hits everything except this one AC.

I'm assuming at least somebody here knows about this so I'm not making an announcement (unless literally nobody has found this out before), so this is rather a talk/opinion on it.

I actually think it's rather silly for it to be this way. I mean, Natsu's rising options are already bloody awful on NH, yet one of her only viable options is rendered useless because of this single AC. I think this might actually be a design flaw/oversight by the devs. Look at the mirror AC, Back-Left, which doesn't work the same. 66B still hits on that.

Another thing to note is the sheer distance with which you can move away from her using this AC. She has essentially no oki after it. A plus side to this however is that people are forced not to AC that way when near the ring edge else they RO themselves. This is similar to Yoshi's 3B 6KK where normally you can just Back AC out of that, but toward the ring edge you have to let both moves of 6KK hit else you RO yourself during your AC.

Thankfully she does still have 4B (measly unless with meter), certainly beating the insane God tier 24 damage she would be enjoying with WR B KUZ.

It is one of those anti-character factlets which nobody knows of save for the odd one or two people, but it is real and it does mess up what is assumed to be Natsu's go-to NH meterless rising punish.

- TxA
 
an i19 that's +4 on hit, a NC, is safe on block and breaks guard in 10-12...even if they AC away you can easily close the distance with Natsu's superior speed and work in an oki-game...I must be missing something here
 
ZER0 said:
an i19 that's +4 on hit, a NC, is safe on block and breaks guard in 10-12...even if they AC away you can easily close the distance with Natsu's superior speed and work in an oki-game...I must be missing something here
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You are missing quite a few things here actually:

It's a launcher on hit, it isn't safe (KUZ is high), the opponent can safely get up before Natsu reaches them basically putting her at disadvantage, also not to mention the point of my post was regarding the AC out of what is seemingly a combo. You were mistaking me for WR B on it's own without Kuzukiri, but even that isn't safe; it's -12. WR B on its own is nigh-on useless.
 
TxA said:
You are missing quite a few things here actually:

It's a launcher on hit, it isn't safe (KUZ is high), the opponent can safely get up before Natsu reaches them basically putting her at disadvantage, also not to mention the point of my post was regarding the AC out of what is seemingly a combo. You were mistaking me for WR B on it's own without Kuzukiri, but even that isn't safe; it's -12. WR B on its own is nigh-on useless.
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If you do WS b4a+ba fast enough, it jails on block. No ducking allowed and a great guard guage tool that hits grounded to boot.

For other crouched punishes look into 6a+b and (I have trouble doing it consistently from crouch for block purposes) 66b.

As you mentioned, 4b into 1a, k2, CE, or 44k is decent but high.
 
Hmm the fact that the high does burst in 12 is a redeeming factor, but I don't see where it's going to be worth using outside of oki. Instant WR B is going to be i24 which isn't exactly worth doing at neutral, unless you were implying it be used as oki exclusively? In which case I see a fair argument.

Yes, I already use both of those. A minor caveat; I was actually talking about WR B specifically rather than Nat's duck punishment options as a whole, but I shall address that now that you mentioned it. FC 66B is indeed a rough input, but I think the reward is worth it for me to continue practising it until I'm hitting it off of blocked low -17s, regardless of the difficulty with execution. 6A+B is nice but the oki situation afterwards is not something I'm particularly a fan of, especially when certain characters at distances can literally get up and block the 1A without teching or JUGing when it is meant to be guaranteed. She of course has her tech-traps here but it's just not a knock-down I particularly rate, personally.

I was referring to 4B as a duck punish so it being a high wouldn't matter. I don't think Nat should ever be going for 4B unless she has some sort of power read on the opponent's timing, even then an iWR K will reap more reward.

I'm assuming you are confirming that there is nothing after WR BKUZ in terms of air combos or tech traps, provided the opponent does the Back-Right AC, correct?
 
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