"NO NO!!" "NO NO!" "NO NO!!"

Therenovator

[09] Warrior
I don't know how Leixia vs Viola can be in Leixia's favor. Again, the damage difference is huge, and Leixia must play at close range where Viola's strongest. Viola's most difficult matchups are spacing type of characters imo. If Viola continues to evolve I won't be surprised if she eventually gets banned - her mechanics don't fit this game very well, because of SET 6B+K she's always at advantage and has the best 50/50 in the game, even her 3B is + on block when used in conjunction with 6B+K.

@Windstar, you can't punish 44A BE when you step. You have to either JG/aGI the second hit (can be difficult because it's delayable) or GI the orb.

Cervy and Mitsu... not even close to being even. Cervy is a damage monster and Mitsu is just broken (like Viola), lol.
leixia is one of viola worst match ups you only need to look at recent tournaments to find out. some you dont seem to realize viola has very limited step killers WR b is a huge problem for her. i think when you evaluate a match up you need to look at how there moves counter each other not damage alone. i agree about cervy and mitsu not even being close but leixia only good match up is vs viola she beats viola pretty easily shes faster has better range in close bb destroys all violas pressure game and leixia can punish her 3b pretty easily i think your overrating viola shes not as good as people are making her out to be she has a few flaws people just dont know the match up she very good but shes not over board at all.viola is very good vs mid range characters who are average in terms of speed like ivy, cervy even algol.
even kayane who mains them both will tell you that leixia is a counter pick to viola you only need to look at mlg tourney where lost providence completely got destroyed by her,thats just an example

she is yet to win a major or even come close.
maybe its just one of your rants to get characters nerfed like you did with leixia. but i dont think we will see another patch unless namco wish to spend $100,000.
the viola you see now is just the one before patch 1.01, namco were scared a character a new character with long launch combos could seem over powered and due to0 feed back of testing players she was nerfed but every said she didnt do enough damage and was garbage tier now she gets a few buffs which is basically her originally damage and now shes broken wow.
 
If this keeps up I won't be surprised if maybe the thread will get locked, and therenovator just stop it...im sure Ring himself knows what he's talking about. You even tried to get on me when I been negative on zwei..which I still have mixed feelings about, His strengths just don't overcome his weaknesses against the higher up chars in this game. As for the leixia players here...dunno maybe it seems you guys would just be happy if leixia was back to prepatch. I actually hope another patch comes out for this game, there are still some bugs and lil balance issues to be fixed.
 
No, but a block punish that yields + frames yields a subsequent mixup.
I'm not in the mood to play theory Calibur with a player who is giving no practical examples, or any indication of experience of this matchup at high level.

Any Leixia players who have done care to save me the job? Kayane? RTD? Zeroeffect? Kalas perhaps? I'm playing KOF right now and can't be bothered XD.

Also, you forgot 4K and CE. =)
your logic alone is completely flawed you dont seem to get the message, besides h0w do you know those of us contributing have no tourney experience.
so according to you we must have won a tourney to give a valid opinion.
do you even take into account the push back on some moves and the fact that you have to be careful when using leixia so as not to whiff in your attempt to retaliate.

if you cant punish a move yes you get a mix up if in range but nothing is guaranteed leixia hasnt really got any mix ups to threaten cervy anyway.
except 2k but that even short range and does 14 damage.


are you clairvoyant because it seems to me you just make rash assumption. I just don't get how your able to judge a players ability based on posts and comments and even determine who they play.
it seems to me that its just your ploy to make people you dont agree with look inferior as you seem to use it in every scrutinizing post you make.
 
h0w do you know those of us contributing have no tourney experience.
Do you?

*Nope*

Also, please learn to read better: I said her punishers that don't knock down give you + frames on hit, which gives you a straight mixup oppertunity, i.e. a chance to double or even triple your damage. For this reason, people who are unhappy with Leixia's punishers and consider a free shot at high damage bad really need to rethink their gameplan - punishment for advantage ~ mixup when it pays off can be way more effective than the garunteed damage, its just not garunteed.
 
Do you?

*Nope*

Also, please learn to read better: I said her punishers that don't knock down give you + frames on hit, which gives you a straight mixup oppertunity, i.e. a chance to double or even triple your damage. For this reason, people who are unhappy with Leixia's punishers and consider a free shot at high damage bad really need to rethink their gameplan - punishment for advantage ~ mixup when it pays off can be way more effective than the garunteed damage, its just not garunteed.
how about you learn how to spell before accusing me of reading impediments.
listen, what part of leixia has no mix ups to fear arnt you getting. im not sure leixia excels at poking block punish alone like brain dead characters such as pyrrha and Mitsu. playing like that with her wont get you far as her damage is poor.

she may be able to punish moves that pyrrha and omega can but any move with push back and under -17 and shes not punishing for much damage. eg natsu AAB.

leixia does have good tools in close much better than cervy has but the damage deference and lack of mix ups make it it an uphill battle vs a patient turtle ling player.
 
(
how about you learn how to spell before accusing me of reading impediments.
listen, what part of leixia has no mix ups to fear arnt you getting. im not sure leixia excels at poking block punish alone like brain dead characters such as pyrrha and Mitsu. playing like that with her wont get you far as her damage is poor.

she may be able to punish moves that pyrrha and omega can but any move with push back and under -17 and shes not punishing for much damage. eg natsu AAB.

leixia does have good tools in close much better than cervy has but the damage deference and lack of mix ups make it it an uphill battle vs a patient turtle ling player.
Boo hoo - lol at how scrubby you are, you know jack shit and you're crying about it, lulz.I've heard some serious bull before, but Leixia has no mixups? HA!
 
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Boo hoo - lol at how scrubby you are, you know jack shit and you're crying about it, lulz.I've heard some serious bull before, but Leixia has no mixups? HA!
Please name these many good mix-ups Leixia allegedly has. Nobody ever can when tasked to.
 
Answer me this: How many ways can Leixia knock you down, get + frames or be in a situation where your opponent has to guess between 1B+K, 44B and WS B BE?
A lot.
 
Answer me this: How many ways can Leixia knock you down, get + frames or be in a situation where your opponent has to guess between 1B+K, 44B and WS B BE?
A lot.
huh please what are you talking about how is 1b+k ever used as a mix up.
and why would you ever want to use 1b+k when your at advantage its a move designed to evade when leixia is at disadvantage.
so these both mid option you named are the mix ups you speak off
fallen knows a lot more about leixia than you do not sure why you continue to argue.
 
Answer me this: How many ways can Leixia knock you down, get + frames or be in a situation where your opponent has to guess between 1B+K, 44B and WS B BE?
A lot.
Guess what exactly? Between a Mid, a Mid and, le gasp, another Mid, none of which actuaally hits OTG (I think, WS B BE might, but it's so friggin' slow I've never been able to actually catch people OTG with it) and all of which can be stepped (WS B BE needs to be stepped in the right direction, with the righ timing and possibly simply blocked on reaction if you're not confident you can 2A her in time)? 1B+K needs to be stepped in the right direction as well.

What the Hell is doing these moves on +frame supposed to be for? Do you play exclusively against mentally challenged players who always/often mash/attack from disadvantage/knockdown, after being hit?! Any non-retarded player will block after being it into frame disadvantage. A much better and less retarded mix-up would be 66K vs. grab. It's a 50-50 and on CH on 66K, you get a free mix-up between a grab/low and a mid. If 66K is blocked, you're safe (if your grab is ducked, you're unsafe, obviously).

All of the moves you just mentioned are mid, so what the heck is the mix-up here? Whether or not Leixia will step first? Easy solution: 2A her ass, catches both WR B BE ad 1B+K.

You're just advocating pulling stupid shit against players who don't know how to play against Leixia properly. If you'd pulled any of that shit against me, you'd eat the following:
1B+K: 2A/AA/block into free mix-up
WR B BE: 2A/block into a free mix-up
44B: Block into 3B. Seriously, that move is -22 on block. Or, if I'm feeling frisky, 44B on reaction. My move will come out later and hit Leixia. It's possible 44B+K will catch it also, I haven't checked. If I can 44B+K Leixia after 6B on reaction to catch 6BA, 44B is a cinch.

This "mix-up becomes wholly ineffective if the opponent simply isn't brain-dead. If they're knocked down and simply stay down, none of the moves will even hit them (except WR B BE but without launching?). If they simply block standing, they get free mix-up attempts after 1B+K and WR B BE and a free anything that's i22 or faster on 44B (which is to say: (almost) everything).

Also, it's not actually a mix-up since every single one of those moves hits mid. The only mix-up here is whether or not she'll TS or TC first, all of which can be easily negated with a simple mid horizontal.

What a great mix-up you just provided us with! 3 Mids that hit with varying timing, whereof 1 is wholly unsafe, 1 does shitty damage and 1 costs meter. And you have the nerve to talk derisively of me because, uh, your boyfriend is one of the best Leixia's in Europe? Did you run your little "mix-up" past him first? Have you actually seem him employ that "mix-up" on high level players?

You don't - I'm explaining that she has mixups at disadvantage as well.
Do I really have to teach you how to play Leixia? Are you *that* dumb?
Against players who don't know how to play against Leixia. Against certain characters, her "mix-ups" from disadvantage all fly out the window because they have fast (and sometimes safe) enough moves to negate any mix-up. Some of these either inflict a lot of damage or combo for a lot of damage.

Watch RTD, Kayane or, heck, possibly even your own boyfriend play against high level players and try to spot how many times they "mix-up" from disadvantage. Leixia's only viable mix-ups from disadvantage is to not pull off entire strings and instead "cancel" into another move (unless, again, her opponents are either mentally challenged or simply unfamiliar with the match-up).
 
Mid/Throw/Low with mixups at advantage AND disadvantage which makes the lows viable.

I'm gonna be frank: You are a scrub, you clearly suck at soul calibur and I'll leave the other good players to ignore you as well.

Bye!

(Also, I've had hundreds of casuals with Kalas - I know Leixia better than you ever will, stay free.)
 
Mid/Throw/Low with mixups at advantage AND disadvantage which makes the lows viable.
But her lows inflict horrible damage and don't combo (or they're slow, pick one). Most are -frames on hit, so the opponent gets a free mix-up on you.

So you're mixing up between good to decent mids and terrible lows to sloooooowly chip away at your opponent's lifebar. Sounds like great mix-upping to me! Most characters in this game have better lows (more damage/better combos/both) than Leixia so Leixia's low/mid mix-ups are sub-par.

I'm gonna be frank: You are a scrub, you clearly suck at soul calibur and I'll leave the other good players to ignore you as well.
This is rich coming from someone who just advocated Leixia mix-up with 44B on +frames/knockdown. 44B, out of which she can be hit on reaction! If I see that shit on not-knockdown, I'll just friggin' 44B her myself to show her how stupid she's being. Or I could just block it for a free 3B. If I feel like actually making an effort, I could step into 22_88B, delayed 3B, CE, iFC WR A or iFC3B.

Now I'm not the greatest player, I've never claimed to know everything about Leixia. I've never claimed credentials because "I've played X and Y" or "My boyfriend is the best Leixia in Europe" (apparently, your claim to fame and non-scrubbiness being "Knowing and playing against good players"). But at least I've never said "Use 44B on advantage/knockdown!".

It's quite telling how instead of actually managing to (and sometimes not even attempting to9 refute a single one of the points I've made in this thread, you've instead resorted to name calling, name dropping and elitist grandstanding. It wouldn't be so pathetic if you hadn't actually advised players to use 44B as a mix-up on knockdown/advantage.
 
Synraii, Fallen is actually right here. While I hate what he is saying, everything he's saying is backed up, and has thought behind it. Flawed or not (I'm more inclined to believe him at this point), he's putting effort into his posts. All you're doing is name-calling and waving around your "credentials" as if it makes you a genius on principle. In reality, it only makes you look foolish.

That aside, I really am tired of this. I've been taking a break from Soul Calibur V since last Wednesday, and I won't be putting the disc back into the drive until tomorrow night, maybe Thursday just to be safe. I've been frustrated and burnt out. Indeed, after everything I said in the 1.03 patch thread, I'm uncertain about my own character. And it's not helping me when I go to her soul arena to find Fallen waving the "Leixia is the worst character in the game" flag once again, and people are trying to fight back and frankly not doing a convincing job of it.

Leixia has a great number of 4:6 matchups, only few 5:5s, and 6:4s only against the low tier, and mostly everyone here seems to be in agreement that she's pretty bad. Let's get down to brass tacks. Is she viable or not? Because if I'm going to come back and try to hone my skills, I don't need any character-related insecurities holding me back. My improvement has been hampered severely by Leixia's questionable viability being a constant presence in my mind, and Fallen is partially to thank for that, having been waving the "Leixia is shit" flag for months now. That's why I hate what he says, even though I feel it is well-said. Let's get this taken care of now, because I'm sure it's going to be a concern for other new players who gravitate toward LX as well.
 
Ok. So I'll probably have to do a lot of moving of posts soon. But before that let me make something perfectly clear about this game. There are more to mixups than Mid/Low or Mid/Throw.

1. Do you... kill their step or kill their Gauge? (ie: 44A vs 66B/44K or 22A vs 33B)
2. Do you... kill backstep (like 66BB) or kill aggression with fast or evasive moves at disadvantage (like AAB, 44B).
3. You also have reverse mixups after people block your moves, especially if Lexy's in FC.
4. As people have said, she has a lot of mixups on wakeup. (see Ep 2 of video guide)

What I think people are really saying is, Leixia has no braindead 50/50s. You know like Mitsu, Asta, or Cervy. Mixups she definitely has, they're just used differently.

Most of Leixia's mix-ups aren't very good or are pretty easy to beat just by pressing buttons. Especially in the case of her WS game. This isn't so much an issue of Leixia not having mix ups, or not having good mix ups, its simply a matter of not working most of the time. Much of the reason why Leixia is lower mid, is just a bunch of fundamental flaws in her game. That said, a lot of this stuff above is actually pretty good advice.

I've read quite a bit of bickering back and forth in the recent posts. I see a lot of flaws and downright wrong information. 1B+K is high, not mid. 1B+K, 44B, and WS B BE aren't very good mix ups if you have to choose. All can be beat just by mashing a mid horizontal. Especially if up close.

I don't care to get into this bickering argument. I don't want to get into it. Partly because a lot its wrong and misses the point on why Leixia is a weak character (non-competitive? Hardly, I think). And partially because its pointless, off-topic, flame bait, and isn't promoting intelligent discussion.

What I will say is this; Leixia has a few options for beat several characters. Leixia's most challenging match-ups, aside from Natsu, aren't really the top tiered characters, but the mid and upper mid tier characters. Characters like Pyrrha, Patroklos, Omega and others who can easily interrupt her aB feints (the only moves in her arsenal that give positive to block) with simple 236Bs, and are dangerous to attack while at disadvantage.

Others like Yoshimitsu's iMCF and its BE equivalent that beat most of her WS game. Or many of Raphael's options that can interrupt 22B. Not to mention his incredible zoning and evasive options. The fact that its easy for him to B+K on reaction Leixia's WS B BE kinda hurts.

And then there's other moves like Siegfried's 6K, or Xiba's 6A, or Night's 4K and more. A lot of very powerful moves that Leixia will have trouble dealing with. Not to mention no real answers to 2A/2K/1K. Unless you want to 9B every attempt. A lot of these are fast, get-off-me's, or interrupts that can ruin many attempts at frame trapping, or setting up possible mix ups. What good are mix ups when most of them are beaten just by pressing buttons?

Then there's the steppable guard breaks, the low damage return, the difficulty in getting basic combos out. Trying to get 1A's slow mid to counter hit for big damage. AA BE K's mediocrity and more. Lots of risky stuff that doesn't always yield much return.

Despite all that, Leixia does have a lot useful options that players tend to take for granted. 4K is an excellent punisher. 3B - linear as it is - is a strong option for punishing risky stuff. WS K is arguably her fastest and best setup for frame traps. 22kAAB_K is a great natural combo that grounds your opponent. 44(A) is amazing against step and most highs and its easy to mix up with 44A, 44aB, and 44(a)B. Plus it leads to a 90 damage combo with AA BE, 6KK or 100+ damage combo with AA BE 3B CE. Plus her CE is a great 75 damage punisher on anything greater than -13. Poor Alpha and Cervantes only get 55 and 50 damage respectively on theirs (though they can punish more basic stuff). Not to mention her CE is easy to frame trap people into.

Then there's things like 6(A) or 66BbB4 or 66BB4. Anti-retaliatory options like 44B. 1A is pretty good at stopping evasive 8-way run options like Pyrrha's 22K, or Pat's 22A, or Siegfried's 2B+K, Yoshi's 22K, Mitsu's 22B, and more. Good guess work is all you need to capitalize on 1A. Nail those counter hits and you get a nice 90 damage combo with 50 meter.

Yeah Leixia's got issues, but she's lower mid, not low tier, or bottom tier. She has trouble against a variety of characters - mostly the middle tiered characters. But she can compete well against the higher tiered characters. It may not always be successful, but just keep at it. Eventually you'll find a way.


So says the guy with 4000 games played in SC5 (and thousands more in others), with a 21% win rating. Feel free not to pay attention to me. Your loss, though.
 
I haven't read everything you posted here, but in 90% Leixia's mix-ups consist of
a) a fast mid that does almost no damage
b) a slow mid that does normal damage, rapes guard and is + on block (but steppable, interruptable and easily JG'able)
See, every time I say "Leixia has sub-par mix-ups", people either go "You're a scrub!" or "No! Because!" and refuse to elaborate on why. Because they can't. And then the best Leixias in the world step in and say "Actually, her mix-ups are subpar". People who think Leixia has good mix-ups need to learn the friggin' match-up.

I suck at mirrors and I suck at lag, but my muscle memory and reflexes can be awesome at times. Whenever I play mirrors, I keep doing stuff on reaction that completely destroys the opponent. If the opposing Leixia does 6[A], I will reflexively AA or BB them on reaction. If they 6BA, I will 44B+K them on reaction (if they 6BaB, I think Leixia will have moved too far away for the aB to hit).

Because they aren't actually reliable mix-ups against good opponents. On a lag-free offline match where both players are high level players, Leixia's mix-ups will get blocked, dodged, stepped, interrupted, GI:ed and aGI:ed all day long.

It's the reason why the mix-ups touted as good and useful by people who have no clue how Leixia really works are never used in High Level matches. Because it'd get those Leixias raped.

And it's not helping me when I go to her soul arena to find Fallen waving the "Leixia is the worst character in the game" flag once again.
Actually, in my defense:
1) I have never claimed Leixia to be the worst (or even one of the worst) character in the game. I have only claimed that Leixia has been over-nerfed, that her mix-ups are sub-par and that her lows are among the worst in the game.
2) This actually started out with me arguing against Synraii on the Cervantes-Leixia match-up. I claimed that Leixia has trouble block punishing Cervantes. Synraii said that Leixia is excellent at it because she can punish with AA/BB/6KK/any move that gives +frames on hit and then mix-up for more potential damage, at which point I busted out the "What great mix-ups she has" argument. I didn't just come out of nowhere for no reason.

My improvement has been hampered severely by Leixia's questionable viability being a constant presence in my mind, and Fallen is partially to thank for that, having been waving the "Leixia is shit" flag for months now.
She's not shit. But she just keeps getting worse due to patches, her short-comings aren't magically going to vanish in the future with the discovery of some new awesome stuff (because they are flaws in her fundamental game!) and in my opinion, one should keep a Pocket Secondary if one plans on maining Leixia, possibly Mitsurugi since he's basically Leixia only better at almost everything.


Ok. So I'll probably have to do a lot of moving of posts soon. But before that let me make something perfectly clear about this game.There are more to mixups than Mid/Low or Mid/Throw.
But even those mix-ups of Leixia's are mediocre to sub-paar.

1. Do you... kill their step or kill their Gauge? (ie: 44A vs 66B/44K or 22A vs 33B)
2. Do you... kill backstep (like 66BB) or kill aggression with fast or evasive moves at disadvantage (like AAB, 44B).
3. You also have reverse mixups after people block your moves, especially if Lexy's in FC.
4. As people have said, she has a lot of mixups on wakeup. (see Ep 2 of video guide)
1) 44A is i25. If they're stepping, they're probably not going to be open for that many frames. You can block it on reaction, quite easily. The only way to catch step with 44A is if they're throwing out a High (be it 8wayrun or not). A much better stepkiller is 3A+B (i17), though its range is a bit laughable. 44A is highly risky and gives very little reward because it's -13 on block and only inflicts 20 damage unless it's on CH, at which point you can combo for some minor damage. 3A+B meanwhile inflicts 32 damage and is only -10 on block. That said, bad range. Leixia's stepkillers are either High, Special Mid, sluggish and/or give little reward. 33BB can be stepped in the opposite direction, 22A is High and yields laughable damage.
2) AAB can be stepped. 44B i highly unsafe and yields mediocre damage. And you're not going to be able to rely on those two against High Level players. You can catch them with them once or twice a round, maybe, but it's nothing something to rely on.
3) Reverse mix-ups are just that, reverse mix-ups. And even in FC it's a bit laughable since Leixia's mix-ups are still "Mediore low vs. Mid". And you're basically counting on the opponent falling for frame traps. Not gonna happen (much) at higher levels.




As for what Leixia needs (some or all):
* More useful cancels. Especially less gimmicky ones. Her cancels now are either aB feints or cancels which come off slightly slow moves so you can block them on reaction for the most part. I miss SCII Xianghua. Cancels, cancels everywhere. Why did they remove 6B+K (I think that was the input, you know the one where she lunges at the opponent with a vertical slice?)?
* Make WR B cancellable, the way Xianghua's 66A+B was in SCIII. It's still a WR move, so it'll be less broken.
* Give us 11_99B and its cancels back. God I miss that move!
* Low throws. Seriously, Xianghua's low throws were pretty finely balanced.
* More damage. They gave Viola a damage boost. Why not Leixia?
* More lows. Why did they remove Xianghua's 3A? It's not like it was broken. Why remove the 6BB/6BA mix-up?
* Bring back aB (i.e. the aB feint, only as a standalone move)
* Give us non-gimmicky step catchers that are mid. Some people have pretty fast ones that can friggin' combo!
* Gimme back bK or whatever the heck that SCIII-IV move was where Xianghua lay down and breakdanced. That move was hilarious.
* Give us some Just Frames. Why doesn't Leixia get any Just Frame combos/moves? Xianghua had, like, 1, and they removed it (because they removed the throw).
 
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