Raphael Combo Discussion

Fendante said:
Anyway, about the Prep BBB CH stun...
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I think the only guaranteed options (with the most damage) off B stuns are 2B, A+BA (maybe) and CE.

66A+B catches right and no tech, and launches front and back tech.
1B catches left and front tech.
66B+K catches back tech.

Updated (still needs more testing though).
B stun, A+BA:
- A+B must hit as the opponent falls flat against the ground (unless they are right in front of you, then you can A+B right away), the A+B can be delayed for about the same amount of time it takes to tap a directional button.
- teching forward, teching left, being close (due to walls) and being Astaroth don't require movement nor a delay on our part.
- not teching requires a step forward or a step to our left.
- teching back requires a step forward or a step to our left. Against Tira (and other small chars I presume) Only the first hit will land (this needs more testing but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work).
- teching right requires a step to our left. Against Tira (and other small chars I presume) Only the first hit will land.
Additionally:
- If 4B hits from the back the properties are the same as the front.
- If 4B hits from the side the opponent will crumple off axis, step in the direction of their back to realign.
So always: tap 8, then A+BA to cover all options.
Unless you see their back: tap 2, then A+BA.
But, if the character is small, then everything is covered except the left side, you have to trap against right tech.
 
Found something interesting while working on the String Defense Guide. If Raphael's CE trades with certain moves, he gets the same stun as SE B, and it seems to give much more advantage depending on what he clashes with. To test these, perform your CE immediately after blocking the second hit of Algol 6BBB.

CE
  • 66(B) ~ Prep A+B - 76 damage
  • 236B - 69 damage, 80 Clean Hit
  • 6 ~ A+BA ~ 66A+B - 84 damage
  • 3(B) ~ Prep Bb(BE) - 84 damage / 1.5 meter
  • 33k(BE) ~ CE - 112 damage / 2.0 meter
So you can potentially get at least one more point of damage if you don't mind taking 20 damage yourself, though it's insanely easy to get the A+BA combo in this one and get a guaranteed 9 point damage boost over plain CE. This can actually be good if they have a bit less than half life left and you're sitting on meter, since you can come out of nowhere with a SE B stun and combo them pretty hard.
 
Not sure if already listed, but against Astaroth- 66A+B, BT B, 236B -is a fun combo that almost always works. Against everyone else I'd just go for 66A+B, BT B+K and then a BT 2K/BT 2B mix-up.
 
[I might get some terminology confused, but I did the best I could to make it understandable :p]

I came across a very interesting discovery today in Player Match. I watched a player spam (counter) 33Bs on an Astaroth player and at one point, the Raph player did a 33KB and had it connect as a 3 hit. At first I thought it was some lag BS because the (counter)33B grounds the opponent (so following with a :M: attack would be impossible), but it turns out to be possible after trying it in training mode. The problem with this, however, is that the opponent must ukemi forward for the 33KB to connect. In other words, it's probably a tech-trap. (counter)33B (ukemi forward), 33KB equaled up to 80 DMG and doing (counter)33B (ukemi forward), 33kA+B+K,CE can do 157 DMG. But since the players doing this turned out to be idiots (why would you even consider ukemi forward into the opponent) and it seemed to happen randomly, this might not be very practical to use. I don't think I could recommend anyone doing this as it only works for forward ukemi, but it was a nice find.
 
Gojira said:
Yeah, tech traps count as a combo in this game for some reason, even though they're not really.
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I figured it was a tech-trap, but I don't find it practical during an actual match, since any player in their right mind wouldn't ukemi forward into the opponent.
 
Sure, I guess:

Every time you get downed, your opponent backs off to start a slow-ass move / unblockable. You notice this very helpful trait he has built up, tech forward, and interrupt.

EDIT: Just want to add I can think of 1000 similar scenarios. Just because it is a response to something stupid, it doesn't remove it's validity, otherwise front tech would not be in the game.
 
Is this list a bit outdated now? I'm not seeing some of my favorites - CH Prep K 11BB etc (who am I kidding, I do the 11BB regardless of CH ^_^ )

Plus, if my opinion means anything, I think the best way to structure the list (in the event of an update,) is to sort it by damage based on starter move, and then include some extra finishers based on utility (and why.)

I can't help but notice some clutter in the form of extra combos that add no real utility, and do less damage. I even count utility as how an opponent is spaced to you once the combo ends, so some just don't make sense to me.

Maybe make a separate list of impractical combos, for those of us who can actually decide if putting in half an extra half meter into a combo makes the 3 extra damage worth it to end a round? Prep K (BE) WS shenanigans jumps to mind (confirming back-turned for a grab / NOT dumping 2 full meters into the combo etc)
 
Teching forward can be very useful if you play a short range character (Leixia, Maxi) and you're up against a keep away character (Nightmare, Hilde). Fortunately this isn't one of Raph's problems.
 
Zanaken said:
Is this list a bit outdated now? I'm not seeing some of my favorites - CH Prep K 11BB etc (who am I kidding, I do the 11BB regardless of CH ^_^ )
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2nd hit of 11BB can be teched to the right after CH Prep K.

11K is a combo + all directions tech trap after CH Prep K, though.

New find: After certain non-STN non-KND moves trade with Prep K, 3 > Prep BB BE can be used as a followup. 3 > Prep BBB > A+BA works also and is really consistent due to the stun putting them in a BT state.
 
Zanaken said:
I think the best way to structure the list (in the event of an update,) is to sort it by damage based on starter move, and then include some extra finishers based on utility (and why.)
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What are you talking about ?

Its firstly sorted by NH vs CH vs wallsplat. Within these 3 categories i've seperated prep moves right after the moves from neutral

Under those headers, it is arranged by impact frames (speed) of the initial combo launcher. The reason is simply if you want to learn how to maximize your guarnateed punish situations.

Thirdly, under each combo launcher it is arranged by no meter, 0.5 meter, 1.0 meter.. etc. In general, metered combos do more damage

Lastly, under each meter usage, it's arranged by damage.

So it is not some random arrangement, as it is already a considered and logical approach to arranging the combo listing.

I can't help but notice some clutter in the form of extra combos that add no real utility, and do less damage.
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Read above please

Maybe make a separate list of impractical combos, for those of us who can actually decide if putting in half an extra half meter into a combo makes the 3 extra damage worth it to end a round? Prep K (BE) WS shenanigans jumps to mind (confirming back-turned for a grab / NOT dumping 2 full meters into the combo etc)
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Impractical combos and traps should be popped into the thread and just discussed primarily which situations can help maximize the liklihood of it succeeding. I was on the fence for a lot of A+BA combos, but it's fairly doable against larger opponents and also fairly doable when the opponent somehow ends up near a wall/edge.

Slade said:
2nd hit of 11BB can be teched to the right after CH Prep K.

11K is a combo + all directions tech trap after CH Prep K, though.

New find: After certain non-STN non-KND moves trade with Prep K, 3(B) > Prep BB BE can be used as a followup. 3 > Prep BBB > A+BA works also and is really consistent due to the stun putting them in a BT state.
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A+BA working consistently against those lil freaks like natsu and pyrrha?
cool stuff if that is true.

From my understanding, to help increase the chances of A+BA landing after a stun/knockdownish move:
1) range (given)
2) opponent's head must be slightly to the right of raph's foot (not so much it's perpendicular , 45 degrees is pretty good
3) larger opponent
4) opponent somehow crumples near a wall/edge (which helps range)
5) combo from 3B connects on a BT opponent
 
I was talking about combos that stem from the same move, but one clearly trumps the other in every way. Be it damage, or damage and utility. There are instances of this.

I agree on the A+BA stuff, it's much easier to get it on bigger opponents. I find the trick for the smaller ones is to step in the direction of their head, but stopping when you are exactly 35 or so degrees to either side of their heads.

This sounds weird, but it allows you to visualize the time you have to step for (sometimes you step for only a tiny while, ) for A+BA to hit.

On bigger opponents you can just tell from the way they land that no motion is even necessary. As you pointed out, walls can have a great impact.
 
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