Siegfried SCV Non-Gameplay Related Discussion

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NEW MOVES
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Expand on A+K series eg; A+KKA, A+KKB - 11th_dimension

Add A+K move to SCH/SBH/SRSH/SSH - ZOMBIEBEAR666, Heaton

Add A+G_B+G to SCH - Jink, ZOMBIEBEAR666, Heaton

Add a horizontal unblockable - 11th_dimension

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NEW PROPERTIES
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Change 3A to 33A - ZOMBIEBEAR666
Make 4A less punishable - Slayer_X64
Give 2A better on hit frames - Slayer_X64
Give 2A better tech crouch - Slayer_X64
Make WR A not launch punishable - Slayer_X64

Make B:4 faster - 11th_dimension
Give B:4 GB properties - 11th_dimension
Make 4BBB less punishable - Slayer_X64, onlywingedangel
236B cancel into SCH - Jink, Heaton
Make BT BB safe - ZOMBIEBEAR666

Make 3KKB NCC - Slayer_X64, SolidSonic
Make 3KKB NCCC - catch-me-slippin
More pushback on 4K - RT0wn

Change 22_88A to 77A - ZOMBIEBEAR666
Make 11B safe on block - ZOMBIEBEAR666

Safe stance entrance from 44A on block - Heaton, Synraii
Give 66KA combo opportunities - ZOMBIEBEAR666
Unblockable 44K - Synraii, Slayer_X64 Heaton, ZOMBIEBEAR666, Luff_The_Talim2, Seven7Swords

2A+B with RO properties - Sacharja
A+KK safe - ZOMBIEBEAR666, Sacharja
Make a+ka2A an actual JF - 11th_dimension, Heaton

Make SCH A i13 - ZOMBIEBEAR666, Heaton
Give 2_8B+K good evasion properties - Jink, Heaton

Enter SBH from FC - Leinahtan, Heaton
Fix SBH's aGI window (ie no period of non-impacting) - Jink, Heaton, Slayer_X64, 11th_dimension
Give SBH (K) UB/GB properties - 11th_dimension
Fix SBH A+B issues - Slayer_X64

SSH A+B cancel into BT SSH - Jink, Heaton
Give better frames on SSH transitons on hit - Jink, Heaton

FC A+G_B+G become crouch throws - Synraii

Increase Siegfried's back step - Slayer_X64

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RETURNING MOVES
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SC3 4A - Sacharja
SC4 iagA - 11th_dimension, Heaton

SC3 (B) frames - Sacharja
bgbK - Slayer_X64, Heaton
9B - Sacharja

SC3 WR K saftey and advantage - Sacharja

SC3 66B tech traps - Sacharja
66KB - Slayer_X64, Heaton, Sacharja
SC1 236KKKKK_(K) - Synraii

Running in SCH - Leinahtan, Synraii, Heaton
Old SCH A clash properties - Sacharja
Old SCH B frames - Sacharja
SC3 SCH A+B - Sacharja

Old SBH K - Sacharja

SC3 SRSH A back - 13lackswordsman, Heaton, Slayer_X64, Jink, Sacharja, Leinahtan, 11th_dimension
SC3 SRSH B back - 13lackswordsman, TadeMasu, Sacharja

SC3 FC A+G_B+G properties - Sacharja

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FROM NIGHTMARE
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Make iagA comparable to SC4 Nightmare's - Slayer_X64

SC2 Nightmare BB - Slayer_X64, Heaton

11K_77K similar to SC4 Nightmare's 11_77K - ZOMBIEBEAR666

NBS bA/2A - Slayer_X64, Heaton

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GENERAL IDEAS
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Gameplay that focuses mostly on stance roulette - IdleMind, Heaton, Sacharja
Better reward with regards to Risk VS Reward situations - Stryker, Heaton, Sephalump, IdleMind
Increase the evasion/auto-parry windows on his stance moves - IdleMind, Sacharja, Heaton
Faster movement - Slayer_X64, Sacharja, 11th_dimension
More just frames - 11th_dimension

WS AA can be hit confirmed - there's no need to make it NC.
And since when was 44K useless? Best finisher to the base launcher techtrap and it tech jumps obvious lows.
Personally I'd like FC A+G_B+G to be straight crouch throws like Cass' or X's.
Or better yet, 66B made safe - I'd love that!

His while landing moves back, and make ->B+K stance (I forgot what its called, prolly SRSH like Heaton mentioned) A long range stab again, like in sc3, and change back ->B+K stance A like in sc3 again too. I also miss soul charges, but that goes for any character obviously.

Acually, scratch what I said earlier, make the dropkick unblockable.
People will fear the boot!

44K is not the best finisher to SBH B...
Anyway, fix SCH A, make it a legit i13 please because this nonsense about clashing with Taki's A etc. bugs me still...
His 11*77K (I agree) needs to be changed or at least made into an 8WR version of his 4K, that would be nice...
11B yes is another issue, if it were around -13 on grd without going into stance it would be a very nifty poke, you could go into stance for combos and stay neutral when using it as a ranged poke without worrying about getting Launched...
A+KK needs to be safe, please make it -10 on grd, please, maybe -2 or +0 on hit, please!!!
Add a+kK to his arsenal of A+K slide inputs... And, add an A+K attack to each of his stances, whether it be a blatant slice or a new Seig only mechanic, fill the gap...
a+kA[A], SSH A+B, 33B would be an awesome NC and an ideal punisher, right now the frames into stance are OK but are not good enough to see a common use... Increasing the frames into SSH would add to Seigfrieds SSH game even if that combo could only connect on a Stunned opponent...
Agreed!!! One thing that MUST happen, 44K NEEDS to be Unblockable!!!

2_8B+K should step all verticals at neutral & roulette, from instant input to end of transition.
SC4's 2_8B+K can be hit by almost all verticals regardless of timing & is because timing is the problem. Most Sig's into-stance moves on Guard leaves him at specific frames for some 2_8B+K dodges to work, but all characters have at least 2-5 verticals that hits Sig during (early or late) 2_8B+K, leaving him back turned most of the time at disadvantage, only rely & prey that your opponent's next move to be a horizontal & not a vertical or a throw.
2_8B+K should have instant, reliable dodge regardless of frames & range, its supposed to be an option against opponent's momentum, not a move with lots of mistaken programmed advantage for your opponent.
2_8B+K (and all dodge or tech step related move should in all characters) should dodge just like Yun's B+K'n (without the idle-auto part) or like Kilik's 1B or Ivy 214B or Mitsu's 4B+K'B. 2_8B+K should make Sig invincible against verticals from the moment the input is pressed to the end of transition. Sig could also have 2_8[B+K] hold option where he could double side spin to dodge multiple quick verticals like BBs (where in the case of "2_8B+K vs BBs" the 2nd B would hit Sig most of the time).

B+K's GI should impact instantly after inputting B+K & should impact full-time.
SC4's B+K doesn't impact instantly & the GI effect goes OFF when Sig is sitting down for few -enough frames to get hit by horizontals- then the GI effect turns ON again for the Reborn Basher auto counter. This is ridiculous, Sig has an all horizontal GI move that doesn't GI horizontals at a specific in-between time, while the visual effect stays ON, the effect does NOT. I've gotten hit many times by horizontals while trying just plain B+K (not pressing anything afterward). I'd research on Training mode & found out of its OFF-frames. This is stupid from NAMCO's programmers, why does this happens? Why add a GI move that fails to GI at a certain time? Why add a GI move with demotivating effects? Is it for use or not to be use? Since I can get hit on counter by verticals already, why make it like this? Is just plain stupid.
B+K should impact instantly at neutral & roulette situations. Sig should have the OPTION to GI horizontals at all times during roulette instantly upon opted input. 3B,B+K, 22_88B,B+K, 11_77B,B+K etc.. should all be legit 100% reliable OPTIONS.

Fixing those will improve Sig's game without making him overpowered or win friendly. This will just make his Horizontal Impact/Dodging game actually legit & practical while still been an optional mixup factor. Back in SC2 NM (Sig) had the "G2 glitch" to guard instantly after doing 3B or other into-stance moves, it was a broken factor because it covered both horzontals & vertical in one input, G2.

But by FIXING the attributes or/& properties of both 2_8B+K & B+K, Sig can have a two-way gamble mixup & not being as "broken" as SC2's G2.
Sig vs Xianghua example:
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does B+K, X does AA, Sig Impacts X's AA.
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does 2_8[B+K], X does BB, Sig dodges X's BB.
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does B+K, X does 2A_B+G, Sig gets grabbed by X's 2A_B+G.
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does 2_8B+K, X does AA, Sig get hit by X's AA.

IMO, to have ^^those^^ even-possibilities ^^from above^^ is better than:
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does nothing, X does AA, Sig gets hit by X's AA.
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does B+K, X does AA, Sig gets hit by X's AA.
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does 2_8B+K, X does AA or BB, Sig gets hit by X's AA or BB.
Sig does 3B, X guards, Sig does SCH'K, X does AA, Sig gets hit by X's AA.
Sig goes to Namco's office & ask: hey wtf?, X comes out of the office & AAs, Sig get hit by X's AA.

This idea is not just for 3B (as for I don't use it anyway), this idea applies to all Sig roulette, I'm just using 3B for plain example of how bad programmed Sig's 2_8B+K & B+K are, & how it would improve the balance mixup for Sig in those situations where there's no mixup, just plain punishment which leads to some move to go unused for the sake of winning. Winning, but with no fun. Tourney matches goes like AA, BB, AA, BB..., hey! what a fun game! :/

4B+K'A+B or SSH'A+B should have less recovery frames to make it safe or to give advantage on Guard, it is after all a retreating slow low with no forward range that leaves no combo & no RO possibilities, why does it have to be unsafe (-20 on grd) specially on whiffs? IMO, it has too much recovery frames after hit frame.
Mitsu has his 4B (-14 plus cancel into MST option), X has her 44B (-19 plus H/M IMP option), Kilik has his 4B+K (-12), all of them auto-steps/jumps back & forward from easy fast input while Sig's just moves backwards from entering into stance first. I mean, what? lol.

Sig could have stance options during or after SSH'A+B:
How about SSH'A+BG to cancel into Back-turned SSH, it could work nice even for dancing loops (SSH'A+BG, BT-SSH'A+BG, SSH'A+BG...). Perhaps a late Just Input with G to cancel just after the low back hit comes out canceling the front hit only, it could be for a back-turned combo like BT-SSH'A+B:G (hits), SSH'B or A+B.
How about SSH'[A+B] to go into RSH. If SC3's RSH'A comes back this idea would be great for range set up after hitting with SSH'A+B.

BT-SSH'6B+K back-turned forward jumps should be available for normal SSH' to back jump like SSH'4B+K, 4B+K, 4B+K.. until opponent catches me, HA!

SSH'B's GI should Impact High horizontals the entire time his sword is in front of him instead of just during short brief frames at start up.

2A+G Flap Jack, after flipping & knocking down opponent, it should leave Sig at +22 & far enough to give Sig time & distance to mix with 6B & 2A+B. I used to do it in SC3, Flap Jacked opponents couldn't roll away from 2A+B, it forced them to get up crouch guard, it was sweet :)

236B should have cancel options into stance, for example: 236B to cancel into SCH. Or 236b:4B+K to cancel into SSH.

SBH'[K] should have follow up inputs 2 or 8 to steer Sig's run to the background or foreground, similar to Cerv's 124'2_8B or/& Asta's 33_99[K]. This could allow YOU to manually chase your opponent, which would be fun, & possibly to purposely whiff the last hit to back-turn Sig for more (or/& actual) back turn set ups.

22_88A's input should go back to 77A along with 3A as 33A, both should be i25 with instant TC & -9 on Grd.

I got more ideas, but these are my main concerns, because I know that if at least Sig's B+K & 2_8B+K were working properly to their meant purpose, Sig would be more competitive & fun.

EDIT: Oh, btw.. before anyone starts saying stuff like: "ohh Sig doesn't need this or that, its just you, blah blah.." Before anyone starts up with that, let me tell you first: "Fuck you :)" I want Beastfried in SC5, & this is just my opinion, K?, k. :)
This is based on my BoguS findings from Sig plus experience vs other characters Online & Offline, against good & scrub players.

Headbutts should:
4B = H / i16 / -2g / +2h / +4ch (shorter range, almost exclusively for CQC)
4BB = HM // -10g / +5h / +7ch (more range, force crouch)
4BBB = HMM // -17g / +13h / +16ch (more range, force crouch & push away)

3B's animation should be replaced by his old WS'B, with at least counter hit launch at tip range & full-time TC.

Edit:
3A new move: Sig does a back-forearm slam upwards that shoves opponents away from him on both hit or grd. Or a forward Hilt shove from belly to head, Special Mid, close range, with very minor damage like about 5 damage points. A new move specifically to bounce off opponents away from YOU.

3A = SM / i17 or i16 / -1g / +0h / +1ch (CQC short range, pushes away up to b6's tip range)
Like a "get out of my face" kind of move.
Edit::

44A's animation should be replaced by his current RSH'A's animation, but moving backwards instead of forwards. As an instant retreating move with massive anti step range. With 44A hold for SBH from far:
44A = H / i30 / -2g / +0h / ch STN+KND (Stun similar to Setsuka's 4A on CHit)
44A~SBH = // +4g / +6h / ch STN+KND (to combo with SBH'K max hold, sweet)

b6 should be i16 / -6g / +4h / +6ch

2A & FC'A should:
2A at close range = i17 / -17g / -8h / -4ch
2A at tip range = i19 / -14g / -4h / +0ch
FC'A at close range = i16 / -15g / -6h / -2ch
FC'A at tip range = i18 / -12g / -2h / +2ch

Zombiebear, when I said best followup, I meant most stylish =P
Anyways, I could save everybody a lot of writing:
Bring back SCIII Siegfried and say no more, god knows we all miss him.

From SC3:
I miss his RSH'A for sure, & the RO of 2A+B, & the RO of SBH'K, & his 66KB, & even his RSH'B. I miss punishing Sophy's 236B with 4A then mixup time. I miss his old WS'B, it should be in SC5 as FC'3B at least.

I miss his 3A, 2A+B combo even if it was rare to connect. Lol, I miss his 22B,22B,22B... tech trap loops ;)

I miss JagA being +4g. I miss his CHit B]SBH'K NCC, & his CHit WS'B]SCH'A+B,4A combo.

I miss when getting up with BT-SCH'GI was more available.

Goods from SC2:
bgB, CHit bgBB]SCH'B, 22bgBB Mid-Low poke, bgBK Mid-Mid RO poke, mixup :)

Actual walking & running during stances, specially running on SCH "charge!!" :D, & SCH'8wr'AA, I used to make it come out almost instantly by quickly tapping/sliding 66b+k~1]~A. It was like an animation bug, the range, speed & forward momentum were awesome. Also 66B+KG was great for getting close & throw.

99A was very fast compared to SC4's 22_88A. I used to mix it with 8WR'A+K, his "hell-sweep" :). I even faked delays with A+K, A+KK, 3K, 3KK, & 8WR'A+K.

his old 4A:G cancel into back turn, I used it to set up BT-2K for KND mixed with BT-B for KND too.

B7 cancel into SCH, it was one of my favorite ways to go into SCH.

66K] hold into SCH & 66K]2_8 for TS SCH. I also miss 3_9B+K6B, TS SCH into b6, sweet.

6B4B+KG, one of the fastest flashiest cancels ever. Lol, I miss doing 88b+k~8b+k~8b+k~8b+k... to endlessly glitch spin lol "got-got-got-got-got-got you!" XD

Goods from SC1:
66aB or 66bA

All sound effects & voices, war cries, intros & winning poses speeches, SC1 had the best sound IMO, epic.

Goods from SB:
Heheheh, back then his 1B didn't need the opponent to be so close for the AT, in SB Sig had 1B:4B just input to AT RO opponent almost from tip range, so cheap :)

A+B+K:236B+K or was it 623B+K? anyway, Critical Edge was great!

His English voice actor & his quotes, lol "I never had such an easy victory.." Epic trolling right there.

Goods on SC4:
b:4, B4, & B>4 (quick version)

SCH'A+B, & SBH's prolonged GI state.

kA'strings & mixups, & Overtoss.

More ideas for SC5:
SSH'B to have a G-cancel into SCH.

SSH'K to have an input-hold option to go into Back-Turned-SCH, possibly to combo with BT-SCH'B.

WS'AA to have an input-4 cancel into Back-Turn.

BT-SCH'A_A] to be retreating high-mid (in one horizontal swing) & high-SSH from opponent into turnaround & turnaround SSH.

BT-SCH'K to be a turnaround mid back left-kick & safe if guarded.

BT-SSH'B to be a retreating mid, starting with the SSH'B animation & at the double hand hilt grab to end with a turnaround-retreating upward bat-swing motion. And pobbible to G cancel into BT-SCH.

BT-RSH'A should be quick retreating back hit turnaround version of SC3's RSH'A.

Overall I think that all back turn, turnaround options & moves to get into back turn are essential for all 3D fighting games. Take for example VF4evo & VF5, all characters have turn away moves & back turn moves, & their use is quite common for many things (checkout Lei-Fei's stances & his back turn versions for example). Namco should work on all characters back turned option & add more ways to get back turn, then let the frames to balance the safe/punish factor, but I personally want more option in SC5. MORE OPTIONS = MORE MIX UP. MORE MIX UP = MORE GAMEPLAY. MORE GAMEPLAY = MORE FUN.

Edit:
3A new move: Sig does a forward Hilt shove from belly to head that shoves opponents away from him on both hit or grd. Special Mid, close range, with very minor damage like about 5 damage points. A new move specifically to bounce off opponents away from YOU.
New 3A should = SM / i16 / -1g / +0h / +1ch (CQC range, pushes opponent away from point-blank up to b6's tip range)
Like a "get out of my face" kind of move.

Agree. Perhaps SCH'A+K could be his old SCH'2A_bA low sweep that Sig (NM) had back in SC2.

A stomp in SCH similar to 2K or mitsu's RLC K would be a good move for chief, thus giving a good point blank mixup - paticularly handy as a WS B followup.

2A+B could have an: 1A+B input for making the move while retreating with less forward range but to work great as a sway back step low long range attack. 3A+B input for making the move while advancing with almost twice the range of 2A+B.
This will serve Sig to have an option range for this move to ease keep up at tip range without having to obviously get into distance. Its nice & sneaky.
One move, three different purposes. ;)

FC'A should have a hold input into SSH, and it could look like NLS'A] from NM in SC2.
Or maybe the input could be FC'1A], & Sig would retreat while going into SSH in contras with WS'A] which advances.
Aaand Sig could have a FC'3A] into SSH while advancing.
Low sweep into SSH from neutral, nice.

A good Idea for empty inputs, what did you have in mind with regards to speed? About i26 sounds fair to me, what do you think man?

I preferred his older costumes, crystal armour is too holy. He looked better as a knight IMO.

Sounds fair. How about this?:
2A+B = i25 / -16g [-4g] / KND+RO (At tip range: i27 / -14g [-2g] / KND+RO)
1A+B = i26 / -15g [-3g] / KND+RO (At tip range: i28 / -13g [-1g] / KND)
3A+B = i27 / -14g [-2g] / KND+RO (At tip range: i29 / -12g [+0g] / KND+RO)
How about an G-cancel input into SSH? It could be useful have an advancing option into SSH.
2A+BG goes into SSH on same Sig spot.
1A+BG goes into SSH retreating 1 entire Sig spot.
3A+BG goes into SSH advancing 1 entire Sig spot.
This could work well if the current 4B+K would have instant SSH'input, since its plain stance. Then the 1_2_3A+BG cancels to have a slight SSH'input delay.

SCH should have an 1_7B+K option input into SCH while retreating 1/2 Sig spot, but with less TS duration.

4B+K into SSH should have an attack Just Input option, like 4b+k:A. Sig does his 4B+K retreat while swinging a horizontal mid attack into SSH. This mid horizontal swing would have 1/2 less forward range than his current 3A. The input should an ASAP input, at least to slide A before Sig moves his right foot backwards.
4b+k:A = i20 / -2g / +4h / +8ch

Got another one:
How about replacing his current 66KA & older 66KB with a manual input animation of his B+G & add a new throw for B+G. His current B+G starts with a shoulder push, pretty much like 66K's shoulder push. It follows with a jumping A then finishes with a landing B.
The input could be:
66K:236A:41236B (just my opinion, I like fast long just inputs, like Akira's 3K+G:6P:466P+K on VF)

I'd say 3A+B should be -20 - -25 or so to justify the range + RO otherwise at tip range you'd get away with spamming it to an extent. After all its effectivly a buffed version of NM's 11_77 B, at least I think thats what yiou're aiming for yes?

honestly all of the weaknesses that people mentioned here are legit complaints. But I don't see enough people that are happy with the way he is. Siegfried is a character that has great pluses, and terrible minuses. A lot of his moves stun, his mix up game is insane (if you dont play predictable), he has good punishers that are also long range, he's reasonable fast for his reach, and his damage is high. His combos are simple and very damaging. No need for a godfried, he's enough as he is.

I'm one of the few people who actually think that SC4 SIEG is slightly better than SC3 SIEG. Sure he might be a bit slower, but he hits harder, has more move options, and seems to have more stunning effect on his moves in general.

playing siggy is all about making your opponent do the guessing game. He has many "fakeouts" that bait your opponent. If you made the stance transitions any faster (from doing moves and holding button down), he might be broken. If I get hit in the middle of a stance transition, it's my fault for not baiting them correctly. Don't blame namco for your own shortcomings.

I agree that he should get back his 66KB from SC3, there was nothing wrong with it. It wasn't broke, and it was even slightly punishable.

Namco was smokin some serious crack when they made IVY, sure she's not as broke as hilde or algol, but cmon man? a throw that does 90 damage? give me a freakin break. Her range/speed/damage ratio is waaaayyy too high and unbalanced. If shes faster and has more range than sieg, SHE SHOULD NOT DO MORE DAMAGE. And for the love of god.. whats that move where its short reach and she double stabs you, and the second one is gaurd breaking?? No move that guard breaks should be so fast that you literally cannot do ANYTHING before her next attack comes, not even BLOCK!!! That move should leave you with enough time (on block) to guard the next quick attack, but it doesn't. AND THIS MOVE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A FREAKIN COUNTER TO WORK LIKE I SAID ABOVE. An offline buddy of mine abuses this move, and it's the only way he wins at all (most of the time I kick his a@@) Its retarded, fix that move namco.

okay im done whining about ivy.

-sigh- What is it with Siggy's and Walls of text. I was this close to not reading and posting. -.- Dylan...

Anyway. Hello everyone! I'm Luff. You know me as the #1 online Talim and amazing Tira user. I fight siggy so much. And i've noticed that the moves of his that have the most range are kinda punishable. like that Uhh. b+k~a+b is hella punishable and bad and all. But it's range is huge! So i'd say maybe give him a move with tremendous range that can help him with his many siggy ways...