[MATCH-UP] Natsu

kPc

kPc

[09] Warrior
Damn this bitch is fast, so then.....

Natsu's moves/ siegs punish
AAB (2 highs into 3 stabs)- she can kinda whore this out against sieg since he has nothing to punish it besides K and thats only if his back is to the wall to avoid pushback. I dont think natsu players will whore it out too much unless you really like to step or press buttons or both since this leaves her at dis advantage on block and we can start on our offense. If however you feel like being a beast, you could JG the last 3 hits and launch after, not too hard to do in a casual but if we are talking tournament, I`ll leave that up to you.
66K- this move used to be launch punish in 4 but alas all you are getting is a B6 or 6A (I personally like 6A since it pushes back further)unless you have meter then I highly encourage you 66K BE her. If you try 4KK the second will whiff.
66B- B6, 6A whiffs. I dont see natsu's use this too much outside of you being in Red gauge but if they do, punish with B6 but watch for the BE which should be ducked then knock that bitch off her feet.
B,K- duck the kick and punish the kick with a WS B, if she tries for the A she gets countered. She can also do B,B,K so 2 mids into the high.
3KKK- I see natsu's mainly use 3KK but if they go for the third its really no big deal for them unless they abuse it and the sieg knows how to JG. on block its only a K punish.....quite annoying if you ask me, the first 2 are safe and NC.
KK- I only put the 2 Ks cuz the 3rd one sucks and she has a low as a mix up....so not a mix up. If the low is blocked its a WS K, if they try to attack with a WS K after, both WS K and WS B will interrupt. The 2 Ks by itself is a high NC that jails on block.....yay.....
1K- WS K
4 A+B- safe and she can also go into possession. If this hits and she does her air grabs its around 80+ dmg....block this. If you do block....continue blocking since when she goes into possession she can interrupt with POS K unless you predict it and even then WS K will trade.....not really worth it. (see POS K below)
2 A+B- this is her tech trap tool, traps all but back and even that is dependent on the move. Its only 7 damage. Just sit there and take it then hop up to your feet unless you have practically no health and 7 damage can kill you in which case make a prayer to god and hope the back tech will escape.
A+B- oh damn this move......ok by itself its a ranged safe horizontal mid with good speed.....sounds fucked up just typing that but thats what it is. If you do catch her with a B+K it sends her airborne and that will guarantee a SBH B and depending on how close you were when you caught her, you might get a 3B after that.....a whopping 40+ damage that is range dependent and if you predicted her correctly. If she hits this some natsu's will attemp a 2 A+B UB, Back tech will go out of range but she can chase you down with a 66B and if you are in red gauge....well....you know
WS AAA- do not get the last hit confused with A+B, this one is unsafe in the 3B section, if she cancels, still 3B the bitch just dont be too late with it (which is tough but one thing to note, natsu's know the last A is unsafe so look for the cancel....this is really a guessing game rather than reaction)
FC 3 A+B (caltrops)- its safe, not a low though
WS K- safe
66AB- second hit is B6 on block but of course this comes with conditions, if she does the second move, block and punish, she can cancel into POS and interrupt with POS K....annoying. If she tries for the A instead of POS K 3B can tag her
6 B+K BBB- if you block the first move.....please....step....wait til she lands....then 3B

POS- ugh....where do I begin
POS A:6- second hit is high and does not jail. both hits are high. NC (6A+B POS A:6 is also a NC)
POS B- GB, mid, fast, highly steppable in both directions
POS A+B- UB, puts her in TC, highly steppable in both directions. If noticed at the beginning of animation, can take a step back then 4 B+K out of range
POS B+K (low kick)- kind of annoying since WS B doesnt hit grounded. If level headed enough you can stand then 3B or just FC 2B
POS 466 B+G- yes she can throw from POS but only B throw
POS K- finally a move that if blocked we get 3B

Hover- sigh as if there wasnt enough
Hover B- vertical, guarantees alot of damage on hit without the use of meter, very steppable, safe
Hover A- low, if the first hit whiffs and the second hits, causes stun for good damage. can B+K, safe
Hover A+B- GB, mid, highly steppable

Analysis- ok IMO this strictly calls for solid defense and I`m talking about 1970s Steelers. We dont have option selects against this woman from what I gather. Its either G and hope for an unsafe move -.- or pick an option and fly with it. You have to pay attention to your opponent. If they are going for strict lock down there are ways around it (EX K beats out POS A and POS K from 6 A+B but not POS B+K) If you know they like to go in POS, know what you can do against each move whether it could be stepped, ducked, and straight up punished. Pay attention....read your opponent, and always punish when possible and hopefully by doing that you can force them to use moves that they rather not. She can punish 3B at close range, keep that in mind. She is so fast that not one particular move is the real go to move IMO. Poke...poke again....the poke some more then when you start to see her fuck up, unleash on her. OUR REAL SAVING GRACE? Her WS punishment is straight up garbage. against moves like 2A, 22_88 kA:2A, 1K, etc, she gets WS K....14 dmg. Yea I`m going for them ankles. and once she starts ducking then I can start my game. Care against the big lows though, a good natsu could get 6 A+B POS A:6 1K for 47 dmg but even then its worth it because the hey have to work hard for that damage.
When you think natsu, think blocking and ankles.
 
Nice stuff. Just want to add, when she does 6 B+K BBB, you can double QS for a free Backthrow.
 
I don't use Siegfried, but I find this helpful. I find her less threatening after the patch, but this helps me even further :)
 
Sandman said:
6 damage per throw
Click to expand...

Funny context : tournament (yeah I know, not for all of you...)
FT3, 3 round.
Imagine the final score is 3-2 and the average of round per match is 4. You're use to succed 2 throws per round (this number seems totally ok).
So you loose : 2X4X5X6 = 120. It's half bar.

Now imagine for a FT5 and a FT10...

The character is already slow (so doesnt make freeze the oppenent = less throws opportunities); and doesn't have any command throw or nice wake up game with it.
The nice range could have compensate all of this, but with the nerf damage it's really not enough...
Nerfing throws damage is the best way to kill a character on my point of view (for nightmare the problem is the same...) since throws are VERY important in this game.


But now, instead of complaining I have a question, for people who are thinking that it's normal/balance.
Can you explain me this :

Natsu : Excellent overall damage, Excellent spacing/zoning, Fastest character of the game (combining with the spacing abilities, she can make freeze every one=> more throw opportunities), pretty safe.
= Excellent throws (65/60 damage + RO very far).

Siegfried : Ok overall damage, Good zoning, One of the slowest character of the game, pretty unsafe.
= Low tier throws

Where is the logic here ?

Thank you.
 
Pantocrator said:
= Excellent throws (65/60 damage + RO very far).
Click to expand...
Natsu's throws are not 65/60, they're 65/38, which gives her an average of 25.75 damage per throw, or 2 damage more than us. The 60 comes from her BE throw, which requires meter to use. That meter gives her an extra 60 - 38 = 22 damage if it connects, but it doesn't connect half the time, so it gives her 11 damage per half bar of meter (roughly the same amount of extra damage Astaroth gets from his throw BEs, which (I think) are executed AFTER the throw connects, meaning it's impossible for your BE throw to be broken and your meter wasted). 11 damage for half a bar is usually not the best way to spend meter.

You also completely left range out of your analysis. The logic here is that Natsu must close distance on Siegfried to do damage, and in closing distance, she's expected to get slapped once or twice (like the ho she is). Her speed flat out beats Siegfried but she must be close to do it. She may have good spacing, but it's not in her advantage to space a character out with better range than her. She wants to be up close as much as possible.

Not saying it's perfectly balanced, but when people forget about Siegfried's throw range (or his range in general) they pay for it.

Ask Party Wolf.

(Sorry Party Wolf Kappa)
 
Natsu is more dangerous than Siegfried at close and mid and long range.
At long and mid range she is doing more damage and she is safer too. (and She never whiff... but well it's a other topic...).

Her spacing game combinated to her whiff punish abilities prevent here from every keep away strategy.

And of course the BE throws does count. Especially when you can mix it with the main command throw.
Metter are in this game, she doesn't have problem to build it.
11 damage point more for a throw it's a LOT, I aldready made the demonstration with 6 points...


But the main question was : how can a fast character with an amazing range and excellent overall damage have insane throw damage since she can make freeze the opponent on an easy way ? Why instead of this Night and Sieg have the worst throw damage in the game then they are not able to make freeze anyone ?
Throw range is important, but when you don't have the damage or even the wake up game, it's not enough at all.

Oh by the way, I choose natsu, but it also works very well with Alpha...
 
Pantocrator said:
Funny context : tournament (yeah I know, not for all of you...)
FT3, 3 round.
Imagine the final score is 3-2 and the average of round per match is 4. You're use to succed 2 throws per round (this number seems totally ok).
So you loose : 2X4X5X6 = 120. It's half bar.

Now imagine for a FT5 and a FT10...

The character is already slow (so doesnt make freeze the oppenent = less throws opportunities); and doesn't have any command throw or nice wake up game with it.
The nice range could have compensate all of this, but with the nerf damage it's really not enough...
Nerfing throws damage is the best way to kill a character on my point of view (for nightmare the problem is the same...) since throws are VERY important in this game.


But now, instead of complaining I have a question, for people who are thinking that it's normal/balance.
Can you explain me this :

Natsu : Excellent overall damage, Excellent spacing/zoning, Fastest character of the game (combining with the spacing abilities, she can make freeze every one=> more throw opportunities), pretty safe.
= Excellent throws (65/60 damage + RO very far).

Siegfried : Ok overall damage, Good zoning, One of the slowest character of the game, pretty unsafe.
= Low tier throws

Where is the logic here ?

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Well i think here the idea is that we're supposed to use grabs in areas such as frame advantage, while creating guard crush pressure, or simply after creating fear advantage after a number of situations. We could also use them to compensate for poor punishment situations where we need extra damage(45 is at least better than 20 if they guess wrong). I admit siegfried's grabs aren't the best and I think they should have more damage, but I do also think that the range at least makes them a useful tool - we may not get oki off our grabs, but we get about +30, which is enough to lock the opponent down after a grab. Plus we can use our spacing capabilities to contain an opponents movement and open up opponents for throws - not nearly as well as natsu can, but effective enough that they can still be utilized.

However I do see where you're coming from, and personally I think natsu's damage is universally too high. But thats just my opinion.
Sandman said:
Natsu's throws are not 65/60, they're 65/38, which gives her an average of 25.75 damage per throw, or 2 damage more than us. The 60 comes from her BE throw, which requires meter to use. That meter gives her an extra 60 - 38 = 22 damage if it connects, but it doesn't connect half the time, so it gives her 11 damage per half bar of meter (roughly the same amount of extra damage Astaroth gets from his throw BEs, which (I think) are executed AFTER the throw connects, meaning it's impossible for your BE throw to be broken and your meter wasted). 11 damage for half a bar is usually not the best way to spend meter.

You also completely left range out of your analysis. The logic here is that Natsu must close distance on Siegfried to do damage, and in closing distance, she's expected to get slapped once or twice (like the ho she is). Her speed flat out beats Siegfried but she must be close to do it. She may have good spacing, but it's not in her advantage to space a character out with better range than her. She wants to be up close as much as possible.

Not saying it's perfectly balanced, but when people forget about Siegfried's throw range (or his range in general) they pay for it.

Ask Party Wolf.

(Sorry Party Wolf Kappa)
Click to expand...
Not quite sure where you got the average throw damage for natsu's throws from - according to my calculations thats an average of 51.5 damage per throw. And her BE's give her an opportunity to raise that damage ratio even higher. Perhaps its not optimal use of meter, but in clutch situations is where that sort of thing actually make a difference - it could mean the difference of a match.

True she has to close in on siegfried and he can zone her out, but shes got decent range herself, and shes very good at actually getting in because of it. Once she's in she can double Siegfried's damage output if you're not careful. And its not like her long range moves are terribly slow either - and they also deal quite decent damage. pretty much our saving grace is that we get a b6/b4 punish off most of her "get in" moves. Even so, while its possible to space her out for a time, we have to be very conservative about it, and eventually she will get in. our job is to try to just delay her long enough and get enough damage so that when she gets in we've done enough damage so that when she does get in and hurt us, we can get her back out and still maintain a health lead so that she still has to keep trying to come to us. after that we keep going till we hopefully win, we screw up and she murders us, or we win by timeout.

TBH throws can be good, but its a bit matchup specific on where and how they can be used effectively. essentially grabs in this matchup are only another tool for re-spacing natsu, and well, its very difficult to get it off unless you can actually get her to freeze from hitstun, and even then she's got a6. you'd be better off with tools like 4B or 66K to try to score a simple KND so that you can back up and GTFO of her optimal range.
 
Slayer : I mainly agree except for the throw punishment.
Throws are i17. Even without meter iagA is doing the job. At -16 trying to throw is risky, especially because a lot of character in this game can punish throws very well.

On my point of view (well...) throws are here to open the guard, to attack. And I guess it's an other problem for Siegfried.
I mean, ok, I can space at least, even if the game mecanic make it risky (most of characters can move and whiff punish very well). But when I need to attack ?
SRSH and low grab (like you said) are very MU specific. When it doesn't work, you have to go to the side throws.
This is not easy in this game since a lot of character have a lot of amazing crusher (so they wont' freeze so much).

I have a true question. You are talking about 30 frame advantage with throws. But if the opponent, for exemple after a B throw is tech rolling back , how do you use them ?
When you have the life advantage it's perfect, but when you need to come back and to attack...
 
Well by throw punishment i meant more along the lines of giving up your i13 punisher against a -13 move and going for a grab to help catch up in damage if you're behind. Its risky, but if you're far enough behind in damage that you've a good chance to lose otherwise, i figure there's no harm in trying.

After grabs, if the opponent likes to back roll, i'll either let them so that they respace automatically for me, or i might run up, 1K to lock oki and then try to respace or bait damage through reverse mixup. My chosen actions depend on the matchup, but normally the farther away you are the better, and even if i can increase my life lead by so much as a 1K damage wise, its at least another reason to force my opponent to come to me. Not only is it pressure by stalemate, but it also gives me even just that much more of a life lead to fall back on should I truly find myself in trouble.

If i find i need to come back and attack, i'll usually just try to lock my opponent on oki, and try to force a predictable situation that i can try to take advantage of by looking at how they have reacted previously in the match. i tend to move alot towards run up 1K/3K after grabs if i absolutely must pressure my opponent simply because they're fast enough to lock them down from doing anything. And if i find myself in a position where im very very far behind, I'll either turtle up and try to be very careful into baiting them for those last few hits so that i can aim for some decent whiff punish damage, or i might start doing extreme things like trying to take advantage of the fact that i've attempted to lock my opponent up in oki, and over abuse the frame advantage i get from these situations, by say, running up into grab/3B, or running up into SRSH. Of course by the time you start resorting to things like this, it's very likely you've lost the match anyways.

Certainly its not optimal, but it at least starts the momentum off in your favor with a grab, which if we're losing badly at that point, is pretty much all we can expect unfortunately. The more behind you are, the more you unfortunately have to roll the dice to try to get back onto even ground - of course risking things blindly without considering the consequences can also only hurt you more anyways, which is why its definitely something you have to actively think about. It really depends on the character, the opponent, and ultimately what you have found to be working in that particular match.

When none of those things work, really our only option is to turtle it out, try to score some damage off pokes, play keep out as best we can, and wait for our opponent to make a mistake so that we can capitalize off it. If that doesnt happen then we're SOL. Unfortunately its just a shortcoming that we have to deal with.
 
Slayer_X64 said:
Not quite sure where you got the average throw damage for natsu's throws from - according to my calculations thats an average of 51.5 damage per throw.
Click to expand...
Sandman said:
Assuming you're mixing up A and B randomly, your opponent is guessing randomly, and there are no factors such as wallsplats or ringouts, your expected per-throw damage is (A throw dmg + B throw dmg) / 4. So, Sieg deals on average 23.75 damage per (front) throw.
Click to expand...
 
Pantocrator said:
Natsu is more dangerous than Siegfried at close and mid and long range.
At long and mid range she is doing more damage and she is safer too. (and She never whiff... but well it's a other topic...).

Her spacing game combinated to her whiff punish abilities prevent here from every keep away strategy.
Click to expand...

Can I get some elaboration here? I'm not quite seeing how Natsu is a massive pain for Sieg in his preferred range. I understand Slayer's points on sacrificing guaranteed damage in exchange for a little dice roll for more damage but I'm not quite following your own points.
 
Of course you can.

Natsu's tools :
-66B : This sh*t is tech step and tech crouch in the same time. What does it mean ? That means that this move can evade agA (high), 3B and B6(both linear). This move is also i17. So it's faster than 3B.
This move is also doing 48 damage (and more with clean hit), so during this time Siegfried will try to catch her with B6 (24 damage, +o on hit) or 3B tip range (30 damage).
On block this move is -16. Siegfried can go for B6 to punish. But if she is using 66B4, she can punish the B6 with POB. So to punish it Siegfried will have to guess. At least she only risk B6.
33B is too funny to since it's giving a side step bonus.
-A+B : Tech jump, antiside/backstep : That will just prevent Siegfried to move (if you want to side step 66B for exeample) and to escape. Since Siegfried backdash is already the worst in the game, it doesn't really help. It also prevent Siegfried to use 1AA to try to catch 66B (but most of the time it will just be too slow...). This move is totally safe on block against Siegfried. This move is also doing 36 damage...
-22B : Evading move, safe launcher, super range, tracks a lot, ridiculous recovery (so no real risk if whiffing), totally safe on block. Can be use for zoining, or also to evade if Siegfried is still trying to use B6/3B or even WRB.
-Bombs : Siegfried hit box is very huge. So he can't really side step this porperly. It's also a very nice anti-backdash. Again it's tottally safe.

Siegfried Tools :
-agA : Very nice move, damage, very good range, very good en block. Very small recovery, so hard to whiff punish. But Natsu's 66B is really crushing it too often...
Very dangerous in this MU.
-3B : On block even at max range Natsu has tool to force him to use reverse mix up. At some range 66BBE can also beat SCHK. If Siegfried's 3B is whiffing.... well you now. Can also be evade very often by 66B.
-B6 : quite fast, nice range. Can be evade by 66B, but less often than 3B and agA. On block you have tu press G because A+B will prevent you to move. If she did dash~guard she can also punish you since it's -10 en block.on hit it's 0. So because it's against Natsu you should go for a defensive action...
In fact the recovery of this move is pretty big too. Whiff punish possible. But well, since it can catch 66B, Siegfried has to go for this move.
-3A : Slow, unsafe on block, huge recovery. The range is not so amazing in fact. I don't like it in this MU.
iWSB : 3B with tracking, well minimum i21. You really have to anticipate a lot because it's slow. So that means that you have to use it from pretty far. That means that you increase your whiff risk. If you whiff it... well.
-22A: Slow. So you have to do the same as WSB. And the recovery is also very huge. But this time it's safe on block and it can beat crusher.
-22B : Best tool if you want to autowhiff or to get hit in CH. One of my favorite in this MU.

Whiff punishment :
Natsu can also whiff punishing Siegfried very hard if he is insinsting with poke/zoning.
For this she has 22B, 66BBE, Bombs. 22B or bombs are giving very nice damage even without Meter.
Siegfried is a slow character, that means : huge recovery = easy whiff punishment. Natsu is covering a very nice distance with her back/side step, it also helps a lot to make whiff Siegfried.
Only because of natsu's whiff punish potential, it's dangerous for Siegfried to go for zoning/poking.
Siegfried won't have so much opportunities to whiff punish. Natsu's recoveries are pretty fast. Because of this Siegfried has to go for 3B, but it's doesn't launch at any range. Siegfried also need BE every time to do true damages. Siegfried movements are not helping him to make whiff Natsu.
So, Natsu is talking less Risk than Siegfried to attack at long/mid range.

Auto whiff
Siegfried is one of the best character for this.
Natsu is the worst. I never saw her doing this.


To resume :
Natsu is doing more damage than Siegfried at long and max range.
Siegfried is taking risk to poke/zone her because she can do spacing with crusher and move and whiff punish .
Natsu is not taking so much risk. Siegfried doesn't have good crusher and his whiff punish abilties are weaker. His movements are also not good.
Natsu is also taking less risk because she is more safe on block/whiff than Siegfried.
So of course, even with this Natsu has no interest to stay at mid or long range, because here Siegfried can still try to do something, even if it's risky etc.
But all of this stuff will just prevent Siegfried to keep her away. So it will allow her to come to close range, and then....well... you know :p.

So here's my gameplan :
A : against a bad natsu :Zoning, poking, keep away. If the Natsu player doesn't know how to deal whith Siegfried range it can work very well.But a MU discussion is about players with the same level.
B : against a natsu at least as good at me : hold G and make the good decision other and other again in mix up situation. Guard mid, duck throws.... Siegfried WSB is doing good damage and you will need it here. Since she can't punish throws very well (I still never saw any Natsu's player using 66B for this, so I guess it's not really possible... but maybe I'm wrong). you can other abuse of your high damage throws :-D. But again be carefful with A+B and 66B...
Of course with this strategy you will still need a better mind game than the opponent to win. If it's not the case... well you can guess.

I hope that my english is clear enough... it's pretty long.


PS : to make it clear. I never lost against any Natsu in any tournament or FT5/10. Every time plan A is enough, or I'm just stronger mentally.
In this game people don't really care about MU. Most of the time they use the same gamplan against every character. The last time I did a FT5 against a Natsu I won. It was only because of the knowledge (plan A) and because he lost his nerves during the third match :
!
So I'm not complaining because I'm loosing. For me it's really how the MU is.
I only have to use plan B against a sparring partner (Kerrigan), and here I can loose of course.

PS2 : maybe this post deserve to go in the Natsu's MU section.
 
This match-up reminds me a bit of the Cervantes match-up. It's important to focus not so much on what she stops you from doing, since that just makes you sad and depressed, but rather on what she doesn't stop you from doing. A quick look at her punishment:

Code: 
Standing
--------
i8 - 4a+bA / H / 8 / 4
i10 -  A:6 / HMM / 42 / 0
i13 - KK2K / HHH / 32 / 0
i14 - 4B / H / 12 / KND
i15 - BK / MH / 30 / KND
i16 - 3B / M / 28 / LNC
i17 - 66B / M / 48 / KND
i20 - A+B / M / 36 / KND
 
===
 
Crouching
---------
i8 - 4a+bA / H / 8 / 4
i12 - FC A / SL / 10 / 8
i14 - WR K / M / 14 / 5
i16 - 6A+B4 / 20 / 2 / 11 (into PO)
i17 - 66B / M / 48 / KND
i19 - WR B / M / 18 / 4

As kPc pointed out almost a year ago, Natsu's FC punishment is pretty nonthreatening until -17, where she can 66B. Siegfried has quite a few moves that fall just short of this number and are either low or leave her in FC, and others that fall much shorter.

Code: 
No Punish
---------
6A (tip, mid)
3aA
1AA (tip)
1B (tip)
6B (tip)
2A+B
66B (tip)
22B (tip, mid)
22BB (tip)
44K
66A+B (tip)
22kA2A
SSH A (tip)
SSH AA (tip)
 
===
 
Weak Punish
-----------
4B (AA)*
8*7K (AA)
A+BA (WR K)
44K (1K)
22ka:2A (WR K)
 
*If A:6 is attempted, second and third hits whiff.

Looking at that, it doesn't seem like our options are really limited all that much except by the opponent's yomi. You have plenty of opportunity to apply these moves, especially after getting a 3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ JagA combo. It might also be worth it to trade some damage for guard damage with 3(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ 66A+B if you're way up on life. The pay off in the next round is her guard gauge flashing red, and that's always a pretty sight.

The key to not getting punished for a lot of the ones that require tip spacing is to not be moving forward, since the closer you get, the strong she gets. Instead, be working backwards - Siegfried makes excellent use of the Backdash Cancel (4214214), and especially so in this match-up, where you can punish a whiffed 66B from backstep with a buffered 22BB4 into combo. Patience is the key.

Be annoying, turtle, and spam those slow ass online lows that she can't do shit for. Good luck, brüder.

EDIT: Also, entering stance on block is just as bad for Natsu as it is for Siegfried, if not worse. Will get that up in a bit...
 
I certainly agree this is a hard matchup for sieg. Want to add that 22a for sieg is not safe vs natsu at close to mid range.

6a+b4 po a:6 is a decent i16 FC punish. 39 guaranteed damage, with potential to up it to 65 with no tech, and if you guess right on a tech then it can go up to 80 for a back tech or over 100 for side tech.

4b is also a decent ducked throw punisher. 36 guaranteed 44 if they don't tech and as usual bombs or 66b if they do tech.
 
kAb said:
6a+b4 po a:6 is a decent i16 FC punish. 39 guaranteed damage, with potential to up it to 65 with no tech, and if you guess right on a tech then it can go up to 80 for a back tech or over 100 for side tech.
Click to expand...

The problem you run into on a lot of punishes is the range. In my testing, some of the -16 (and -17) stuff recovers fast enough to block the 6A+B, and that's mostly due to spacing. Natsu and those tiny arms.

kAb said:
is also a decent ducked throw punisher. 36 guaranteed 44 if they don't tech and as usual bombs or 66b if they do tech.
Click to expand...

Why not just take 6A+B4 here, also?
 
Was just adding another option, and distinguishing it from normal FC punish since its a high and usually only punishes ducked highs.
 
I personally play this MU very turtly. Her ability to contain movement at range is quite good but she almost always puts herself at -16, so thats a B6 punish for you.

So i try to keep her out as much as possible and force her to commit with annoyance 2A pokes at range. Cant say if thats a decent strategy.

I find it a bit hard to find spots were i can apply stuff like 66B on tiprange in this MU personally. For example, i normally followup 3B~SCH K BE~iaga with 66B, which is only avoidable by rolling back but natsu is one of the few chars who can still punish at that range with 66K.

Btw 66B actually has a different hitbox on tiprange, it gets additional pushback and becomes -19 on block instead of -22/23. This means only a small handful of characters can punish it when you use it as followup after 3B (it actually spaces out apats twister for instance).

66A+B sounds like a really nice alternative though, considering her FC punishment is not that good.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back