Yoshimitsu Matchup Discussion

Discussion in 'Yoshimitsu' started by Pocky-Yoshi, Feb 8, 2012.

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  1. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja [07] Duelist

    Could use some anti-Raph tips...if only A+K would aGI verticals....he just manages to stay right out of my reach and come in with the stun to BE combo, over and over again...plus, for most cases, transitioning into a stance either reduces disadvantage to near zilch or gives him advantage, so essentially a lot of my punishment options are limited. []
     
  2. DrDogg

    DrDogg [09] Warrior

    I haven't taken Raph into the lab, but when I play a decent Raph I tend to use 1K more often than normal. A lot of Raph players like to use highs, so 1K techs under them and launches. Of course, after you hit this a few times, the smart players will shift to mids, but at least you've limited their options.
     
  3. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja [07] Duelist

    Yeah...the person I play most (DigitalCount) knows my Yoshi game pretty well...we've been playing each other since SC2. His Raph is just devastating. []
     
  4. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    VS Raph work in progress...I'm getting sleepy... I'll finish off the general punishment tomorrow.

    THINGS TO CONSIDER

    -He is very linear and easily stepped from a distance.
    -He can be harder for Yoshi to punish at tip distance of his pokes.
    -He is flamboyant and irritating.
    -His Prep pressure is essentially shut down by 214 A and moves that step to his right. Even his Prep A and K can be Quick Stepped to his right (against A a clean step takes a bit of timing but 22B TCs under it while stepping with no timing required). 22_88B can punish but against Prep B,B you have to delay the attack slightly or you'll whiff up close.
    -His CE can be stepped to Raph's right just by mashing step during it's zazzy start up cinematic for Yoshi's CE as punishment or a backthrow.
    -His 6B,B BE and it's Prep variant cant be JG'd pretty easily for Yoshi's CE or a 3B combo or just step the last hit and punish with 22_88B.
    -Step PREP pressure to Raph's right, Step CE to Raph's right, Step 6B,bA+B+K to Raph's left just before final hit and punish with CE or 22_88K, duck 2nd hit of PREP kA+B+K for easy punish.

    GENERAL PUNISHMENT

    A,B- 6B
    1A- 6K
    4A- 6K
    6A,B-CE. Will push other typical punishers out of range however though it's NC you can duck and punish B if 6A is blocked.
    6B,B- B,B/6B
    6B,B,B- 6K/CE
    B,B,B- 6K/CE
    3B- 6B
    FC2K, 2K- 6B
    1K- 6K
    A+B- 6K
    A+B, B-2A
    8A- A,A
    66A- MCF
    33A- 3K/CE
    44A- 6K
    11A,B- CE
    11B-6K
    44B- 6K
    33K,B- CE. Pushes other punishers out of range
    33K-6K
    22K-MCF
    11K- 6K/CE
    44K- MCF
    BT2K- 6B
    PREP A+B CE / 6K close recovery ie back to wall
    PREP A,B- CE. Pushes other punishers out of range
    PREP K- 6K/CE
    SE K- 2A close
    PREP K BE- Duck 2nd hit and punish
    6B,B BE/PREP B,B BE- Step last hit to Raph's left and punish with 22_88K combo
    CE- Step to Raph's right and punish
     
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  5. JT_the_Ninja

    JT_the_Ninja [07] Duelist

    No kidding? Would never have guessed.

    So wait, do you mean stepping to Raph's right or mine? Just checking. []
     
  6. Gabedamien

    Gabedamien I Want To Be Happy

    My brother mains Raph (and is better than me, haha) so this is a welcome post.
     
  7. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    VS Xiba

    -Some stuff is range dependant and you'll whiff at max but typically it's not much of an issue. Fiddle around with it to get a feel for it.
    -3{B} REM options are cut down by B,B and A+K If you block the 3{B} at far range A+K will miss REM A however. A+K gives you wake up though!
    -Annoying 6B, K and 6A, K strings are evaded by 4B+K for 3B combo.
    -214A beats all REM options! It evades REM B and REM K as well as ducking REM A! Takes care of that cheap spam for a cool 60 ish damage!

    General punishment

    A,A,K- This isn't a natural combo except on CH so you can duck the 2nd hit and punish quickly with 6K. It will both punish the whiff and cut off the K. If you block the K, punish it with 6K also.
    6A- punishable by MCF but it's tight and the K follow up dodges it. Use 2A to cut off the K follow up if you're opponent has the habit of throwing it out.
    6A, K - K is evaded by 4B+K for 3B combo and can also be interrupted by 2A if you don't have the life for 4B+K
    1A- 6K if you're close. It will push you out of range typically.
    4A- 3B combo. Also be wary of range.
    B,B- It's safe on block but in between hits you can step to Xiba's right and punish with a tasty 22_88K combo.
    B, [ B ] - 3B combo
    3[ B ]- REM options are cut down by 6B/ B,B
    3B,K- A+K interrupts and send Xiba flying! Pretty funny!
    3K- 6K
    3kB- 3B combo
    FCK/2K- 6B
    A+B- B,B
    A+B,B- 6K. It will cut of the final hit of the string too so no need to worry.
    1_3 A+B- 6K
    4[B+K}- 3B combo
    FC A+B- step 2nd hit to Xiba's right and pubish
    WS K-A,A
    7_8_9 K- A,A
    33A- 8_9K. Depends on range. If you are too deep in you'll miss the kick if he does the 2nd hit. Either way the jump kick will punish a single swipe and also avoid a 2nd.
    22A- A,A
    22A,B- B,B
    22A, [ B ]- 3B
    66B- 6K
    66B,B,B- 3B combo
    22B- 6K
    66K, B- 6K
    66K, [ B ]- step to Xiba's left and punish with 22K combo
    22K-4B,K
    BT2K- 6B
    BT B+K- 6K
    REM- 3B > everything if you are fairly quick.
    REM A,K- 6K
    REM K- 6K
    OTG A+B- RCC 3B combo
    33A, A BE- 6K
    Xiba CE- 3B combo

    Just Guard

    4 B+K- 3B or CE
     
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  8. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    VS Pyrrha

    -Some stuff is punishable frame wise but you will often be pushed out of range such as 3B. So know when you can and can't punish.
    - Remember that anytime you can punish with 3B you can typically punish with CE as it is a frame faster, range permitting.

    A,K-B,B
    3A- a single B will land. So take the single and play a 50/50 afterwards.
    1A- 4K,B
    1A, A- 3B combo
    4A,A,A- 3B will interrupt the second hit on block to launch. If you block the string instead, treat it like 1A and 1A, A
    4A, B- 6B or you can step the B to either side to punish for bigger damage.
    6B, K- 6B
    3B- if you're close you can poke with a 3K if you are really close, like back against a wall, 6K.
    2B,B- 6K
    3K,K- really close 6K otherwise step and punish second K.
    2K- 6B very little in terms of block stun so your retaliation must be quick!
    1K- 6K
    B+K- MCF really tight as usual.
    B+K, B- 6K
    6B+K- A, A when close.
    2B+K,B,B,B- 6K after any. Can block after 2 second hits on normal as well to punish any following Bs.
    8B+K- catch it with Flash out of the air
    8{B+K]- also catch with Flash out of the air
    FC1B,B- 6K
    33B- BB
    22B-3B combo
    22B,A- 3B combo wait till landing
    22B,A,K- 3B combo
    11B- B,B
    33K- A,A
    11_44_77K- MCF
    44K,A,B- just 6K the A out of the air to cut the string off for CH damage
    44K,B- also cut off with 6K
    66B+K, A- 6K
    66B+K,A,B- 6K also can duck A and interrupt with MCF for CH combo
    BT2K- 6B
    Angel Step A- 3B combo
    AS A,A-6K, can Flea [B} after first A to launch for bigger damage
    ***treat side step variants the same
    AS B- 6K
    AS K- 3B but it will whiff as max range
    4A,A,A BE- back step last hit and the punish with 33B, B+K
    AS A,A BE- can step last hit to Pyrrha's left but it's quite tight. Safer punish is jump it with 8K
    66B BE- quick step and back throw
    CE- 3B combo
     
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  9. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    Vs Lexia

    -This is essentially a big list of bad news. You can mostly poke punish her good tools if at all.
    -Yoshi's poor range really hurts his ability to punish even in situations where frame wise he should be able to
    - Lexia's 22K-22k.A series is a true mix up. Seeing the proper option to block on reaction is very, very hard and 22k, A series is a combo in it's entirety even on NH which is ridiculous. Cutting it down is the best option. Learn to see the start up and cut it off before you even have to deal with it.
    -Anywhere you can 3B you can CE remember!
    -As a strange little oddity, if you jump into Leixia and let her ground pound move hit you in the air rather than break your guard you can immediately get up and 6K her instead of taking the guard break.




    A, A, B- 6K
    6{A}- B, B but impossible on reaction essentially.
    66k/ FC3B/ 1A+B/ 2B/ 1A- MCF on 1st available frame
    3B- K/ A (2nd whiffs) or a:B+K on 1st frame
    1B- MCF 1B forces crouch so you have 2 frames to punish
    4B, bK- 6B on quake block or jump and 3B combo.
    6K- 6K
    6K,K- B, B
    FC2K/ 2K- 6B close
    A+B- B, B
    {A+B}- step or 4B+K 2nd hit and 3B combo
    2A+B- 4K, B
    4A+bB- jump 2nd hit and 3B odd timing or cut off with 8K
    2B+K- block quake 6B or jump and 3B combo
    B+K options- 2K cuts them all off but can be blocked if she doesn't attack
    3B+K, B- step after first hit and 22K or 22B combo. Leixia can block 22K if she cancels 2nd hit.
    WSB- 6K/CE
    WSA+B- 6K punish first hit and cuts off all options for follow up.
    WSA+bB- if you read the GC move early enough, jump and 3B combo.
    7_8_9K- A, A
    66A- A, A
    66A,A- MCF
    11A- 6B/ CE
    11A, A- if you block the 1st 8B cuts off following options.
    44A- MCF
    44aB- step 2nd hit and 3B combo
    22B- K
    66B, B- 4B+K 2nd hit and A, A
    66B, B4- 22B if she throws out the auto GI recklessly. Other stuff may reach depending on range.
    66B, bB- step 22K combo 2nd hit
    22B+K, B/ 22B- 6B if close or A {2nd A whiffs}
    44B- 3B combo
    44B4- 4K, B
    22B+K, K/ 22K- 6K/ CE
    22B+K, kA, A.../ 22kAA... Crap- 4B+K after 1st hit and 3B combo
    22B+K options- MCF beats all for CH or 2A also beats all
    44B+K- 3B combo close
    Sliding K-4K, B universal for all I believe
    A, A BE- step last hit 3B
    A,A BE K- block quake 6B jump quake 3B combo
    CE- 3B combo/ CE
     
  10. mkl

    mkl [00] Signia's Cheerleader

    Nice work. I will check this LX guide over tonight.
     
  11. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    The more brains we get together on this one the better. She's so safe and can do things like spam lauchers on us virtually free. I wonder if the intent was for Yoshi to really lack this much range.
     
  12. mkl

    mkl [00] Signia's Cheerleader

    After facing Heaton's Sieg and getting bodied pretty hard 4-1 it's becoming clearer and clearer that Yoshi might have the worst reach in the game. Resorting to MED bullshit is not how I want to close in. Shark attack can only do so much.
     
  13. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    I'll throw out 8A+B2 to get in from time to time. 4K, B is one of my main get in tools now that it's safe aside from aPat's broken i8 CE. I like 4K and then after they realize I'm not throwing the B out they often run into a second 4K, B.
     
  14. Gabedamien

    Gabedamien I Want To Be Happy

    It won’t work multiple times, but as a hail mary 9B+K K can get in with some good reading or luck, especially since it TJs. Most of the options already listed are better, but random 9B+K will surprise a lot of people the first time. I especially love 9B+K (K) > DGF K DNK 3B, works well against turtles.
     
  15. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    vs Astaroth
    -range as always is a factor you'll need to get a feel for some of your options.
    -CAN ESCAPE ASTAROTH'S CE AFTER IT BEGINS BY MASHING QUICK STEP AND G TO HIS RIGHT. 88G88G88G88G88G etc...

    A, A- interrupt 2nd A with MCF or duck and punish of course.
    A, B- step B 22K combo or interrupt B with MCF
    3A- A, A
    2A- 6B
    6A- A, A. MCF or 2A will interrupt 2nd A for CH
    1A options are slow and best evaded and punished. You can jump or duck the 2nd hit for essentially whatever punish you want. Blocking pushes you too far away but these moves are easy to see.
    FC A/ 2A- 6B close
    214A- 1st hit can be B, B. 2nd and 3rd 3B/CE and 4th, 5th and 6th punished with 6K or CE
    33B/ 3B- 6K/CE
    2B- B, B
    1B- 3B combo
    1B, B- 3B combo
    6K- B, B
    WS B/ FC 3K/ B/3K- A, A maximum closeness
    FC K/ 2K- 6B
    1K- 6B/ CE or interrupt A with MCF on CH
    4K- MCF will punish and interrupt 2nd K. 6B won't punish but will interrupt K and throw follow ups!
    4K, K- 6B
    4K, throw- just holding guard will cause throw attempt to whiff and you can punish with 3B combo any moves that are TC will get interrupted for the throw.
    2_8A+B/ A+B- if used at anything other than max range you can punish with 4K, B or 3B/ CE if close enough.
    3A+B- 3B very close or CE from further
    4A+B- 3B
    6B+K- A, A
    2B+K- 6B very close/ CE from further
    FC B- 6B
    WS K- 6K but A follow up will duck it. B, B/ 3K/ CE will punish and cut down A follow up.
    7_8_9 B- 2A
    7_8_9 A- B, B
    66A- 3B. MCF interrupts B follow up but step options do more damage.
    22A/22A, A- A, A punishes both
    66B- B, B
    11B- 6K/ CE. B follow up whiffs a lot and you can land 4K,B or 3B combo after he sails past you.
    66K/22B/44A- you can land MCF on 1st available recovery frame if extremely close.
    BT B- A, A close
    BT2B- B, B
    BT2K- 6B
    66K BE- can step 2nd hit and punish or A+K interrupts! MCF will trade but it's pointless.
     
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  16. Heaton

    Heaton I'm Bane

    PSN:
    Kestryel
    Hello,

    My name is Heaton. I come from a land known as Germany, where we play characters with giant swords, long flowing hair, troubled patricidal pasts, and bang really smokin' redheads and romani. I have journeyed here today to give some wisdom on Siegfried. Since I, personally, am a very deficient Yoshimitsu player, I can only really give insight on what I do and why, and what it is you do that annoys or otherwise troubles me, and not really give specifics like "Punish my SCH 462A+B+G with 66(A+K)". I hope that you find my information sufficient. Namu.

    First, you need to know his stances, and be able to quickly identify them in a match. I am going to assume you have a working knowledge of his stances, but here's a quick primer:
    • SCH, or Chief Hold 2*8B+K - sword is held behind his back similar to Cloud Strife's win pose. Used mainly for ending combos and punishing whiffs.
    • SBH, or Base Hold B+K - sword is held on the ground, Siegfried is on one knee. Used for horizontal aGI and TC.
    • SSH, or Side Hold 4B+K - sword is held behind him in his right hand. Used for backwards evasion and punishment.
    • SRSH, or Reverse Side Hold 6B+K - sword is held behind him in his left hand. Used for 50/50 mid/low mix-up and long range pressure.
    On Spacing

    For most of his game, Siegfried is going to want to keep you at around agA and B6 range, with B6 having just a bit more range than agA. This is the "sweet spot" that Siegfried wants to be at because it means that Yoshimitsu can't really do anything against him and is forced to back off and try to get in some other way, or to guess between a step and a duck to beat one option or the other. This is going to sound really shitty for you guys, but you don't really have any options at that sweet spot...the only thing I could find are his Tekken moves, specifically Lee's Blazing Kick and Paul's low knockdown I forget the name of. Anyway, I'm pretty sure you don't want to leave your option in the hands of the Random Number God, and not to mention you need at least one successful A+K GI to use either of those.

    Basically, your plan needs to be to just get out of that sweet spot and try to re-position yourself. His long range tools are extremely telegraphed - 6B, 2A+B, SRSH A, SBH A, and his CE have flashing strobe lights that say "I am doing this move now" so he can't pressure you at long range as well as he can in his little agA sweet spot, so you're a bit safer back here. To get in, though, assuming you're not running in after a heavy whiff, you'll need to guess his moves correctly and then step yourself in. This is where you need to know the moves.

    B6 is an i15* mid that is neutral on hit and -10 on block. Its neutrality is both its strength and weakness - it can essentially be spammed against someone that can't match Siegfried's range, but it also means that someone that can match his range might be able to beat him to the punch on it. -10 also means he probably won't feel guilty about using it again on block if you're at its tip range, especially since your range is so lackluster. However, it's linear by virtue of being a completely straight line, so a successful step means a chance to close the gap and possibly punish depending on the distance. Note that the move sort of** tracks so be careful of accidentally whiff punishing into the move. You should be fine if you step it fairly close to him, but at tip it's a bit iffy.

    agA is an i16-i18 high that is anywhere from +2 to -5 on block, with it being better on block the farther out he is, and it also has slight pushback - naturally, he'll want to spam utilize it farther out because of its range and properties. It is one of his best moves for controlling space, and iagA coupled with a Run Counter and a Clean Hit can do about 25% of your health bar in one step kill. It also knocks you back a fair way on hit, and will wall splat if you're close to a wall. The move's weak point comes from the fact that ducking it is disastrous for Siegfried. agA's animation steps Siegfried forward while also pushing the opponent back farther on block while keeping Siegfried at somewhere around neutral frames. However, whiffing the move only steps Siegfried forward while not having any of the awesome on-block properties, and a Siegfried that would have been totally safe and out of range on block is almost always in range (in Yoshi's case to FC 3K) if it's ducked. You have to make the read on this one, but if you can't get around this move you'll be stuck fighting it for the entire match.

    MED/IND (I don't know what you guys use, I'll stick with IND for the rest of the guide) stance is actually not that bad if he is adamant on staying far, far away, and doesn't know your stances well. However, if a Siegfried player who knows what IND A is sees you enter it at long range, he is going to go into SBH immediately and wait for your IND A, because SBH B combos give him sexy damage. Even if he doesn't go into stance, he can punish IND A on block for up to 110 damage if he has the meter (1.5) and if there's a wall around, it'll either be more damage, or similar damage for less meter. I'm really not too sure on how good IND is, since others and myself have been able to just do a launcher or some such and hit him out of everything, but the timing seems fairly strict. I'd...use IND sparingly since CH 3(B) can really hurt - 73 damage before Clean Hits and walls, with good Ring Out potential.

    NOTE: There used to be a way for Yoshi to teleport behind you when doing his IND moves - did they take those out? I can't seem to find them here but I heard there was a way to do them. If there are, let me know and I'll add an addendum about that.

    A final note - if you're at long range and Siegfried has meter, don't enter any stance. And if you are in a stance and his CE time freeze animation has already started, don't make it worse on yourself by trying to teleport or something, which can add 20 damage or so to it. The only except to this rule is Flea, which can avoid his CE even after the animation with FLE 2*8. Pretty sneaky.


    On Stances

    Siegfried's stances aren't always the focus of his game, especially in a match-up where raw out-of-stance spacing is the better option, but they will inevitably come up sooner or later in a match. However, some of them are extremely reliant on you not knowing better - I advise you educate yourself before your wreck yourself, as the saying goes.

    3(B) ~ SCH
    • Backstep after the 3(B) and guard. Everything he can do from the stance will whiff, but you have to guard because Yoshimitsu seems to scoot back maybe a single pixel's length when he guards - the distance is still enough to make everything whiff.
    SCH B
    • This move is +2 on guard. There's nothing else special about it, but I'd thought I should bring that to your attention because it catches a lot of people off guard. His 66K(BE) is i15 which effectively becomes i13 after SCH B on block, and that can lead to some killer damage on its own depending on his meter, Clean Hits, and ring positioning - it might be in your best interest to either keep blocking or throw out an iMCF.
    • NOTE: For those of you who remember fighting SC4 Siegfried often, this move doesn't force crouch anymore. It sounds easy to remember on paper, but I've caught myself just pressing K for a WR K attempt way too many times to safely assume that no one has this problem.
    SCH k(BE)
    • This move is inconsistently "beaten" by A+K and gives you a charge for Tekken moves, but I can't seem to figure out what makes it work and what doesn't. It doesn't give the GI, and Siegfried acts like he's lost a weapon clash. The problem is that it also seems to Counter Hit Siegfried and just flat out lose to him at what seems to me to be the exact same timings. You guys will have to go to the lab on this one. Failing that, it's also Quick Step-able to either side, with your right side being easier, and you can also 4B+K if you don't want to risk messing anything up and have life to spare.
    SBH
    • If you do your CE at a range where your sword will connect make contact with his sword before it makes contact with his body, you get aGI'd. Namuuuuu.
    SBH A/SBH A2
    • This move has the most range out of his entire moveset save for his CE and SBH k(BE), which use meter. It also is extremely predictable because him entering SBH tells you that he plans to hit you with a long range move. He CAN cancel it, but that just leaves him at negative frames and he won't be able to do much unless he did it at super long range. If he does it while you're in IND at range, get out of IND immediately, because if haven't already initiated your teleported before he starts his move, you're getting hit. In that scenario, SBH A will also beat your IND A and IND K - don't be a hero. This move is also -19 on block, but the farther out he is, the safer he is - if you block it, it might be a better idea just to run in.
    SSH BBB
    • You can punish the first hit and interrupt the second at the same time with your A, but that's really paltry and should only be used if you need just one more hit to end the round. Stepping to your right will allow you to punish him hard for whiffing, and it's also -18 at every hit. If you blocked this move, the Siegfried player made a bad read - punish him for it.
    SRSH
    • If you stay on the ground, he CANNOT hurt you in this stance whatsoever. If he keeps doing 6B+K to sort of jiggle his crotch above your body, just chill - he can jiggle his crotch until Hilde calls him back to the bedroom, he still can't hit you in the stance, and SRSH B and SRSH K are punishable on whiff with either your WR move of choice, or a wake-up CE if you have the meter. Peace be with you, indeed.
    SRSH A
    • This is his ONLY long range option from SRSH, and it is slow and high. If you see him doing something from this stance and you're not at range for the 50/50, duck. On the chance that he hits you with this move at anything other than tip range, DO NOT TECH - 66B tech traps all sides for great damage with a chance of Clean Hit. On the chance it hits at tip range, you can safely tech backwards.
    On Being Annoying

    So let's assume you've taken this advice and have somehow gotten in on a Siegfried player. Well done. But now what do you do? Well, this is where you are at an advantage, because Siegfried's close range game is fairly lacking compared to his mid and long range game. I'm not going to tell you how to poke, prod, and all around hurt me in here, since you probably know far better than I do. But there are a few things a Yoshimitsu player can do that really get under the skin of - or at least slightly irritate - a Siegfried player. Note that these are my personal experiences and may very well change from player to player drastically, but it should give you a rough outline of how a typical Siegfried player thinks at close range.

    iMCF
    • You know how sometimes when you're at that agA sweet spot against Siegfried, you sometimes feel like you can't do anything at all? This is roughly how I feel when I'm at kissing range against a Yoshimitsu player who has iMCF down. Being punched in the dick sucks, and the threat of being punched in the dick makes me hesitant. Generally I try to either grab after I block a safe move, or try to back step when I have the chance, but those both present their own problems. Throwing can still be unsafe if you duck, and Siegfried's backstep is still very short compared to the rest of the cast. I might 4B+K here and try to get an SSH BBB, but that carries severe risk not only in the 4B+K, but also in SSH BBB as I covered earlier.
    1K
    • Safe, TC launcher that can Clean Hit? And it leads to around 95 odd damage on NH? That's supremely annoying. Siegfried's close range moves are a mix of mids, highs, and lows, but it makes me wary of using options that suddenly become very risky, like 6A - if you didn't have 1K, I could 6A you with relative impunity and put you back to my preferred spacing easily.
    FC 3K
    • Similar to 1K, except it's quicker (invisible?), low, and doesn't lead to damage as good. However, I don't like being on the ground against Yoshi, because I feel oppressed and have to struggle to get back on my feet and back to my preferred spacing.
    DGF
    • You know what angers a Siegfried player more than anything in the world? Having a better 50/50 stance than SRSH. Why is it better than SRSH? Let me count the ways:
    1. One of your 50/50 options is safe on block - neither of his are.
    2. Both of your 50/50 options ring-out forward - neither of his do.
    3. You can pressure grounded with DGF - you cannot with SRSH.
    4. The typical damage output on DGF exceeds the typical damage output of SRSH, even taking into account Clean Hits and meter.***
    5. DGF A is applicable in more situations than SRSH A.
    • It's only real weakness is that DGF K is like -22 or so on block, which is pretty bad, but I feel its other strengths put it far above SRSH. I feel that DGF is a really good 50/50 stance, and just a really good stance in general. I might be totally off base with that, though, but you can definitely taunt Siegfried players with it - remind them who has the better 50/50 stance.
    6B+K Spam After Winning A Round
    • HOW'S THIS
    • HOW'S THIS
    • HOW'S THIS
    • HOW'S THIS
    • Some random Yoshi did this to me online and I wanted to strangle him.
    • HOW'S THIS
    Conclusion

    Getting past his spacing is definitely an uphill battle, and you're inevitably going to take some heavy hits against him getting in against him. However, there is an old German saying that we use in the Siegfried SA: "Fear makes the wolf bigger than he is." You must respect his options and the damage he can do to you, but do not give him more than that. Realize that he has to take insanely high risks to get his damage, and that one wrong guess can get him punished heavily for it - he has his own holes in his game that you need to exploit, just like any other character.

    This is by no means a comprehensive guide, but I think it will help you to understand how a Siegfried player wants the match to go and what he will do to make it go his way. Siegfried is a character with many problems, in my opinion, but this match-up is probably one of his better ones if he can keep you spaced out at his range. Once you get past that range, however, you're allowed a lot more room to breathe as he struggles to get you out of his face.

    I hope to see some of you sharing some of your knowledge over in the Siegfried SA some time - new faces are always welcome. Namaste, my friends.

     
  17. mkl

    mkl [00] Signia's Cheerleader

    When I get home from work I'm going to scour over this. I need some help with Sieg and his stance frame traps. And the reach of course. Thanks for the work man.

    As far as MED/IND stances: it's pretty bad unless you disguise it with another stance such as FLE. You cannot teleport behind them at will any longer, it does it very randomly. Back step everything from it. I use it only when I see you entering stances and hope I get mad lucky with MED K for 100 dmg.
     
    Heaton likes this.
  18. Heaton

    Heaton I'm Bane

    PSN:
    Kestryel
    Interesting...give me a second, I'm going to go try something...

    ...

    IND: An Addendum

    So I went into lab and fiddled around with Stance-to-Stance combat. Basically, I found out a few things and made a graph to help represent them to you.

    [​IMG]

    Key
    • Blue represents Siegfried's option beating that IND option, and the damage he gets
    • Beige represents IND option beating Siegfried's option, and getting whatever the BnB damage for that is
    So more or less stance movement is in Yoshimitsu's favor. Siegfried DOES get good damage for guessing right with that, but he's really sticking his neck out there, and IND K's damage is really killer if it does hit. Siegfried has to be extremely careful when he's in stance, because a wrong guess can spell disaster for him. I don't recommend stance-to-stance combat for Siegfried at all.

    ...or that's what I would say, if it weren't for this next graph:

    [​IMG]
    Key is the same as the above graph. Basically, SCH B beats out all of his options, and with at least one meter punishes them for one of his most damaging combos - SCH B ~ CE. Even if Yoshi somehow ends up getting a BT teleport, SCH B also hits behind and will launch him over Siegfried's head for even more damage than usual. Essentially, Stance-to-Stance combat is not at all in Yoshi's favor.​
     
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  19. Oboro

    Oboro Namunamunamuna...

    Vs Siegfried

    -214A is handy for cutting his options when he transitions to Chief Hold. It can be blocked but will evade and punish any attacks.
    -33B shuts down 3{B} pressure. After a blocked 3{B} 33B evades all stances options and scores CH on K,K and A follow ups.

    A, A, B- 6B, so many evasive options with this string. On block duck 2nd A and 6K hit punish and cut off B. MCF interrupts between any hits and the whole string is easy to evade and punish. If hit you can still step B to Sieg's left and punish.
    A, A, {B}- If you have been forced to block the entire string and Sieg does enter SBH 2A or MCF will cut off all options.n
    a:G:{A}- punish with 3B combo/ CE
    6A- very close B, B
    6{A}- 4K,B has the range and speed to beat stance options and punish. So does CE if you can buffer it quickly.
    3A- K
    3aA- K close
    FC 2A/2A- 6B
    1A- 6K/CE
    1A, A- 6K/CE 2nd hit can be evaded and punished with DGF B and or interrupted with MCF with very strict timing.
    4A- B, B
    4{A}- 3B punishes and cut down all stance options except SCH to Sieg's left. B,B / 3K cut down all and punish but for less damage.
    B,B- 6K/ CE punishes and interrupts A. If B,B hits Flea evades A and allows a fully charged FL B for launch.
    B, B, A- 6K/CE. 4B+K, B evades A for 3B launch.
    B,B, A4- essentially anything reasonable punishes and interrupts stance follow ups if you read the transition early enough. 3B/6K/ CE
    B,B,K- can duck K if B, B is blocked and punish with 6K
    B6- MCF on 1st available frame
    6B- 3B close/ CE further away
    33B/3B- 3B combo/ CE
    33{B}/3{B}- MCF cuts down all options
    2{B}- MCF cuts down all options
    1B- 6K close/ CE
    4B- MCF very close
    3K, K- punish with 4K,B/CE. Flea will jump 2nd hit and Flea be will interrupt 3rd hit or CH launch. Flea {B} can punish 2nd hit for launch.
    3K, K, B- 6K/ CE
    2K...- Guide has it's properties described as SHIT hahaha!!! Punish blocked with 6K. If Sieg pushes you out of range and whiffs punish with 6K also if he continues to stomp nothing.
    FC K/1K- 6B
    4K,K- B/K can duck 2nd hit and punish with 6K
    A+B- K follow up is not interruptible
    A+B, A- 6B
    2A+B- 6K/ CE
    2{A+B}- 2A/ MCF cut down any stance options.
    9K- A,A
    44A- leaves Sieg +2 but MCF interrupts follow ups.
    44{A}- 3B punishes and cuts down all stance follow ups.
    WS {A}-2A/ MCF cuts down all follow ups
    WS A, A- 6K/ CE. 9K will jump second A to punish and eliminate mixup potential.
    WS B- 3B combo/ CE
    WS {B}- MCF cuts down all stance options.
    WS K- B, B
    44{A}-3B beats all options including blocking and stance evasion.
    66B- 4K,B if close enough, JG allows 3B even from a distance.
    22B- 6B if you are left close enough.
    22B-CE/ 6K if you aren't pushed back due to a wall, also the move should be stepped to Sieg's left.
    22B4-6K will be all options including block.
    11B-3B combo/ CE
    11{B}- 6K/CE will beat all options including block.
    44B-6K/ CE
    44{B}-MCF beats all options.
    44bG-if recognized early enough anything pretty beats it including launchers and CE.
    44B{B}/44B, B- 3B second B can be stepped to prevent from being pushed too far back to launch.
    33K/66K- MCF on 1st available frame
    22K,A series- can be ducked at any point on block or A+K or evaded with 214A. B finisher can be punished with 4K, B or CE or stepped for more damage.
    22K, {A}- MCF beats all options on tight timing. 214A beats options as well.
    22K, A, {A}- MCF, 2A beats all options. 3B punishes and TCs K for combo.
    22K, A, 2A, A- Flea B to evade and punish 2A will also interrupt 2nd low for launch. On block punish final hit hit 6K/CE.
    22K, A cancel 2A- punish with 6K
    22K, A cancel 2A, A - punish with 6K/CE
    22k{A}-MCF/2A/A,A/K all punish and beat K follow up.
    22kA,2A, A- 6K/CE
    22kA,2A just- 6K. MCF/2A will interrupt 2nd A. 6K will trade.
    22kA,2A just,A- 6K/CE
    22K, K- 6K/CE
    11K- A, A
    44K- 3B (grounded)
    66A+B- 6K
    FC A+G/B+G- WS K
    BT B, B- 6K/CE
    BT 2K- 6B
    SBH A- 4K, B/CE
    SBH A2- MCF beats all options.
    SBH K- B, B
    SRSH B- 3B combo/ CE
    SRSH K- 6K/CE
    SRSH {K}- MCF/4K,B/2A/CE cuts down all options
    SCH K,K- B, B or duck and punish. Can duck RCC 3B or duck CE if quick.
    SSH A-6K. 6B will punish and cut all options from here.
    SSH A, A- 6K/CE
    SSH {A}- CE/ 4B, K/ 6K cuts all options
    SSH B- 3B combo/ CE
    SSH B, B- step and punish between attacks. Delay 22K slightly.
    SSH B, B, B- can 4B+K, between between 2nd and 3rd hit and land 3B combo. Will also interrupt stance change options. If they shift to SCH
    SSH K- B, B
    66kBE- 3B combo/ CE. Can step to Sieg's right between hits.
    66k {BE}- step after first hit to Sieg's right with 22_88K. If done quickly will beat all stance options.
    SBH kBE- A,A
    SCH kBE- can step 2nd hit and punish either side.
    CE- Can 4K, B if super close. Can evade by mashing quick step and guard to Sieg's right. From distance 4B+K projectile and punish. If in MED A+B GI is easy timing and works from far also give maximum hilarity points.
     
    setto-kun, Frostheart and Pocky-Yoshi like this.
  20. Senzait

    Senzait Steamed Buns!!

    Some corrections:
    Xiba doesn't have a 6A, B. If you meant 6A,K its safe unless you interrupt the second hit.
    3{B} is only punishable by i8 moves. Otherwise you can get hit by REM A. (Unless 3B TC's the high, doubt it, but ill just have to test that when I get home)
    3BK is safe. You probably meant you had to duck the second hit and punish but without doing that there is nothing Yoshi can punish it with.
     
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