Yoshimitsu Matchup Discussion

How come you consider a:B+K optional? Even just using it on its own, it sets up a big damage on CH (though I guess it's quite hard to get a CH with it), and then you can use it after every launcher to set up the various unblockables or 22A+B. Maybe I overuse it... I'll do it after every 3B, to finish wall combos (into DNK), etc.

vvv ah, ok :)
 
Well guys, i've been waiting for some-one to do the missing chars on this list since July! So i've gone and done one myself now - ZWEI.

Please review and add to the main list if deemed acceptable.

I've listed the disadvantage on block that ZWEI will be at. I basically took the data from the future press guide so if some of his frames changed during the patches then I may have missed a move or 2 out.

I've listed not just the best punisher (usually first listed) but other possible punishes that i was trying out as well - in the hope that it provides a feel for the spacing you are at as well as some guidance to the options available to you post punishment (frame adv, oki, range, etc).

Also, didn't look too heavily at strings.. just those that came up as part of the lab session. Could probably do with extending that section more thoroughly.
 
Punishing ZWEI

A Note on EIN:
When fighting ZWEI it is important to know what direction EIN is coming at you in. There are two ways ZWEI players will use to get EIN out - 4A and 3B. EIN can be charged to come out at different timings.

Ideally, I believe you want the opponent to delay EIN as much as possible. This gives you some extra time to recognise how to avoid the incoming attack, as well as providing interrupt opportunities by hitting ZWEI himself.

Yoshi has a great tool to make the opponent 2nd guess his EIN timings in his auto GI. It repels EIN in both vertical form (charged 4A) and horizontal (charged 3B). You'll also get some IFP charges to use at your discretion. Do this enough and the opponent will probably try to bait your GI with delays but that's fine - because now you can interrupt him. If you are paying attention to the move ZWEI used to charge EIN you will know whether you need to duck or step when he does make an appearance.

There is one EIN attack that isn't worth Auto GI-ing and that is (A). Duck 2nd hit if blocked the 1st.

One final note - ZWEI can be hit by deathcopter in a grounded state - so playing dead in deathcopter traps is not good for him. Use it plenty in this matchup.

Punish List:


6A (-14) -- B/K
1A (-20) -- FC3K, FC1KKK, 4KB (4KB 46 dmg, can punish tip range. Step-able to either side at point blank. Slow, susceptible to FLE or DGF stance punish of choice or 8A… which could be worth it because SDGF B can hit ZWEI grounded.)
3A (-17) -- 3B/6K
4A (no charge, -16) -- 6K. Not punishable at tip range.
3B (-16) -- 6K. Step-able either side.
1B (-13) -- AA
4B (-14) -- BB, AA
2K (-14) -- his 2k pushes you out of range for punish, 2A whiffs, as well as 6B
1K (-16) -- 6K, AA, BB, 2A (2A not at tip range)
4KB (-18, -16). 2nd hit comes out very fast so if you see the start of the animation, wait a few frames before punishing with 6K (first hit only you can 3B punish but not worth the risk, you'd have to confirm the 2nd hit wasn't coming in a tiny amount of frames).
A+B (-16) - 6K, 3K, single B, 2B. Be wary of range.. 2B best at distance, will punish anything but max. Difficult move to step (advances enough to catch back step).
8A+B (-11) -- iMCF punishable but difficult. A rare move. ZWEI has to be careful of distance he uses it otherwise 2nd hit can whiff and lead to big punishment. Also, if both hits blocked, the distance between you is identical as to before he did the move so you are within throw/mid mix-up territory with opponent at -11. Linear, step to ZWEIs right for consistency.
4A+B/4(A+B)(-24!) -- you probably wont see this much outside of combos, but on the odd chance, if it's not the full charge version you can punish with practically anything within reason. Charged version has a lot of pushback but 4B will still reach.
22_88A (-17) -- CE, 3B, 6K. This move can sometimes throw you out as you end up side/BT almost
44_11_77A (-18) -- CE, 6K, FC1KKK. No pushback so If you've blocked this you are in CE range most likely. You have to be able to block this on reaction. It is slow, FLE and DGF punishes also possible . Might have to be weary of where EIN is in relation to punishing this.
66B (-12) -- iMCF on block. A+K will interrupt with body hit if he is close because of the amount of space he is advancing by.
Dependant on spacing, you can also use 9B+K to either land on top of him or go straight over.
It is possible if the opponent is telegraphing the move to go into IND stance and use a cancel into throw just as the move is about to hit. It seems that cancelling gives you a slightly lower profile to evade this move. It looks pretty damn swagtastic if you pull this off.
However, I digress - the move is easily step-able to either side, just don't attack too early or it can track slightly.
33_99B (-14) -- AA
22_88B (-16) -- 6K, BB, AA
22_88BB (-16, -15) -- 6K, B, A. A+K Trades with 2nd hit. Depending on range used, the 2nd hit of this string can whiff even if the first hit hits. 2nd hit very step-able to ZWEIs right for a punish of your choice.
22_88K (-12) -- iMCF. A+K-able.
11_77K (-17) -- FC1KKK, WRB, 2B, 2A. Range dependent. Slow move, block/DGF/FLE-able on reaction.
66B+K(-24) -- CE, 6K, 3B. Step-able but as the move tech crouches do not use 22K. You cannot duck it but you can IND stance out of it if you predict it's coming and there's also enough time to go straight into IND K for a launch combo.
Because it’s so punishable though you may as just block it unless you're feeling fancy or protecting a badly damaged guard.
Running K (-22) -- CE, 4KB, FC1KKK
BT A+B (-18) -- too much push back, if you want to punish you will have to JG it.
214A (-14) -- BB, a:B+K, AA, 3K, K, iMCF
3aA+B+K (-17, -16) --6K, WRB, WRA, WRK, 2A, 2K. JG 2nd hit for bigger punish (not a hard JG at all). You will be ground stun if you get hit though.
CE (-31) -- 4KB if close enough.

Strings:
3AA -- 2nd hit duck punishable. 214A evades, as does 1K - which if followed with 8A can lead to a 90+ damage meter-less punish combo with 8A, SDGF A and great oki. Can A+K either hit, mid string too.
4bA+B+K (-14, -8) -- This BE can be delayed and most likely will be, to act as a frame trap most likely. There are a few options:
- React to the delayed flash to time your just guard and punish
- If block first hit and spacing is ok, back step to whiff punish
- You can also side step to either side after first hit blocked on delay.

The non-delayed version is pretty obvious because the flash comes out before the first hit so just block both hits if they do that.
 
Many thanks again. Updated the small typo haha. The Yoshi match-up needs to get finished. And it's my fault for not dedicating time for Yoshi hardcore wise. I'm gonna have to work double time for this.
 
It is done, but one of these days I should test and make sure they're legit. Not saying they aren't, but us Yoshis have to make sure we check our stuff if it's right. Until then, keep contributing. I'll try my best to do so as well.
 
Punishing Voldo

Notes:
None of Voldo's moves are 3B launch punishable. A lot of his moves have push back that needs to be taken into account.

On the plus side, a lot of his moves that are technically punishable (if not for push back) leave him at -10, -12 frames - and I do mean a lot of moves. If you can JG well, all of these moves not only negate the push back that Voldo has but provide enough advantage to 3B launch.

It's pretty essential to be able to block his strong lows (BT 2A+B, 2A+B, CR A+B) - all CE punishable.

the 2nd hit of his 66B BE can be stepped left or JG'ed with practice.

Callisto Rush BB (the online srcub killer) 2nd hit can be stepped right then 3B will interrupt anything coming after.

You can also work the push back spacing to your advantage so bear that in mind. In a lot of situations Voldo ends up putting himself at risk of counter hits or at the mercy of your own mix-up options because of the disadvantage he puts himself at even on safe moves.


Punish List:

aBBB (-12, -12, -12) Pushback too great for iMCF punish and all WR follow ups whiff. 6K also out of range, so avoid trying to catch a Voldo step as well after this. Move impacts in i23 so might be react-able with 8A, 8K, FLE

6ABA (-8,-10,-14) BB, a:B+K, AA, 3K, 6B, 2A, iMCF. Not punishable at max range. 1st hit can be A+K'ed. 3rd hit can also be A+K'ed but not mid string (i.e. first 2 hits must whiff). 1st hit high but not much use duck & interrupt with 2A.
Timing on 2nd and 3rd hit is good for an option select JG though so if you can JG the 3rd hit, the string becomes 3B punishable.

6AB(A) (-8, -10, -10) JG 3rd hit for launch punish. Pushback too much for iMCF.
3A (-16) Pushback too much, therefore only punishable on JG. Can be A+K'ed.
1A (-16) WRB, FC2B, WRA, WRK. 8A will evade but whiff if not close enough.

6B (-12) Too much pushback for iMCF. Use evade punish (A+B, 214A) or just duck it.
3BB (-12,-14) Again, too much pushback. JG to punish. However, you are at good range/advantage on block after this to fish for CH on 44A, 3B+K, 4B, bA (example, tested with Voldo following with BB, all of those CH his BB). 2nd hit GI Interruptible.

2BB (-10,-10) iMCF but tight/hard to do. Better to step 2nd hit and punish heavily with 22K combo. Can also interrupt with A+K but this can also clash and be beat if not timed properly.
2nd hit also easily GI'ed.

1B (-16) B, 3K, 2A. Safe at max range. Can step and punish with 3B, 22B.

6K (-14) Too much pushback. Fish for CH.
6(K) (-14) Same as above
3K (-12) iMCF close range.
2K (-14) 6B
1K (-10) Too much pushback, mixup/fish for CH

A+B (-15) 6K. Safe at range.
6A+B (-14) BB, AA, a:B+K, 3K, 2A
6(A+B) (-14,-14,-14) BB, 3K, 2A. Safe at range.
2A+B (-18) CE, FC1KKK, WRB, FC2B, WRK, WRA

B+K (-16) 6K, BB, AA, a:B+K, 3B, 2A, iMCF. However, beware (B+K), as punish options cannot interrupt transition. However, the transition into MCHT can be stepped and surprisingly, 22K will hit MCHT.

BT 3B (-16) BB, 3K. Only punishable up close.

WRAA_CRAA (-14,-16) 6K, BB, a:B+K, AA, 3K, 2A, iMCF
WRBB_CRBB (-13,-15) B, K. Step right to evade punish 2nd hit (22B). JG 2nd hit for 3B punish
WRK_CRK (-10) Safe due to pushback, can be A+K'ed, JG relatively safely (low damage, no stun) for 3B punish. Can jump over if close and attempt for back throw.

66A (-14) BB, a:B+K, AA, 3K, 2A, iMCF. Can be ducked, can be A+K'ed
22A (-12) More pushback, safe from iMCF

66_33_99B (-10) iMCF. JG for 3B/CE punish
666B (-10) iMCF, JG for 3B/CE punish

11_77K (-16) WRB, FC 2B

Running K (-22) CE

MCFT B (-26) 4KB

MCHT A (-14) Too much pushback, JG to punish
MCHT B (-26) - 4KB
MCHT A+B (-16) BB, AA, 3K, iMCF, 2A, a:B+K
MCHT 66 (-14) WRB

CR A+B (-26) CE, FC3K, FC1KKK, WRB - very unsafe. Jump over for ring position change or bait it out at ring edge for CE punish (very risky as this can ring out).

BT 6ABB (-12,-10,-12) too much push back, best option is to JG 2nd hit and either step 22K combo to evade punish 3rd hit or for a more riskier option, interrupt 3rd hit after JG of 2nd with iMCF.

BT 6B6B (-10,-12) too much push back, JG 2nd hit to punish with CE or 3B combo.
BT 2B (-16) BB (sometimes 2nd B whiffs), 2B
BT WJ BK (-14,-22) You can interrupt the 2nd hit with anything. CH 6K is a good option for 66dmg. If you react to the jump you can DGF to avoid 1st hit then air grab for 73 dmg. Can also step 2nd hit and punish with 22B. You can even evade 1st hit with FLE, 2nd hit with IND and A+K suicide from IND for 80 dmg.
BT 4B (-11) too much push back, need to JG to punish. Block and use space to advantage.

BT 2K (-14) 6B
BT WJ KA (-15,10) Lots of options. 8A to avoid and punish for 61dmg. Duck and punish 2nd hit with 6K for 55dmg (requires timing not too strict). Interrupt 2nd with with a:B+K to smash to ground and follow up with move of choice (2A+B66, etc). Can also step 2nd hit left.
BT A+B (-16) 6K, BB, AA, 3K, 2A
BT 2A+B (-22) CE at anything but max range. If expecting/no meter, can evade punish with FLE B+K B combo. WRB range dependent, FC1KKK also works.

66bA+B+K (-10) JG 2nd hit for CE/3B punish. 2nd hit can be stepped left (88 from P1 side).
 
Vs Yoshimitsu

3AB: 6K
214A: WR K/ 6K/ 66B/ CE~(hard)
3B: AA/ BB
1B (close to mid range): 6K
6K: 6K
2K/ FC 2K/ BT 2K: FC 2A/ 6B
6KK: 3B (only close range)
FC3K: FC 3K/ 4KB/ CE
22A: FC2A (close), 6B (close range)
66B+K, A+B: Interrupt with BB
66B+K, A+B, K: 6K
6B+K(first and second hit): 2A, 6B BE
Running K: CE, 4KB, RCC3B
Flea K: 2A+B
Flea A: WRA, WRB, WRK
Flea [K]: FC2K
Flea 66: 4B/ RCC 3B/ CE
Flea 66(hit): 6K, BB
MED A: WRB
DGF K: 4KB/ RCC 3B/ CE
DGF A+B(on hit and block): 2A+B
SDGF K no recover: 66A+B, 4KB
SGDF K recover: 4KB
SDGF K Just frame recover: CE, grabs
CE: CE, FC3K

Credit goes to ZOMBIEBEAR666 for helping me with this. Many thanks.
 
Against Sig, if you attempt to 3B him out of SBH while they're doing SBH B it will whiff and you'll eat full dmg. Use 6B to interrupt SBH at close range, 2B also works well from a further distance.
 
Vs Pyrrha Omega

1AA: 3B, 4K(for wall splats or ring)
3B: 6K(close)
2BB: 3B, CE
FC 1BB: 3B, CE
FC 2K BT2K: FC2B
1K: 6K
B+KB: 3B, CE
2B+KBBB: 6K(close)
33B: BB
33_99_66K: AA
11_77_44KK: 6K
66B+KAB: 6K, 214A (TCs under the second hit of Omega's 66B+KBB).
Run K: FC3K, 4K(for wall splat), CE
NS A: 6K
DNS A: 6K
DNS B: BB(Yoshi's back to wall)
NS B: 3B, 6K, CE
NS K: BB(if close)
CE: 3B(Close to mid range)

Credit goes to ZombieBear666 again.

If there's anything wrong with this, please let me know. I will do my best to edit the match-up thread. No Yoshi will ever be blind to match-ups at this point.

All that's left is Dampierre, Ezio, and Devil Jin. Secrets that stay hidden will be revealed. Na-mu.
 
The last three. Credit goes to ZombieBear666 again.


Vs Dampierre

3AAA.....: BB
1A: 6K
3B: 3B
3BB(2nd hit can be delayed): BB, 6K(Back to wall. Perfect timing)
1B: 4B, 4K(for wallsplats and ring-outs)
3K: AA(perfect timing)
2K: FC 2B
FC 2K: FC 2B
BT 2K: FC 2B
B! E!: 3B
1K~FP: WR A, 4B, FC 3K, 4K(wallsplats and ring-outs)
WR K: 6K(perfect timing), BB
A+B~PB: 4K, 66A+B, Deathcopter G, 8B+K~A+B(AT)
2A+B: WR A, WR K
8B+K: FC 2B
88_22A: 6K, BB
44AB: 6K
66B~PB: 3B
33B: AA
33BK(This one is random): If mid, 6K. If low, 4K, FC 3K
11B: 3B, CE
66K~PB: 3B(to hit grounded)
11_77K~random PB: 4K
11_77KK~random PB: FC 3K
Run K: FC3K, CE, 4K(for wallsplats and ring-outs)
CE(Whiff GI): 3B(if far to close range), 1K(if mid to close range)


Vs Ezio

6ABB: 6K, CE(Perfect timing)
1A: 6K
4B: 44bB(Close to mid range)
WR BB: 6K(Yoshi's back to wall)
Jump B: BB
6K2: 4B, RCC3B, CE
6K2(if it hits or CH): 6K, CE
2K: FC 2B
FC 2K: FC 2B
BT 2K: FC 2B
A+B: 2A, CE(perfect timing)
22_88A: 6K
22_88AA: 3B(close), 4KB, CE
11A: 3B, CE
44A: BB
33_99_66BB: 6K
66B: 6K
11K: 6K
Run K: FC 3K, CE, 4K(wallsplats and ringouts)
CE: 6K, CE(perfect timing)


Vs Devil Jin

AAB: 3B(perfect timing)
6AAB: 6K
ABA: BB
6ABA: BB
1A: WR A, WR K
11A: WR A, WR K
77A: WR A, WR K
10 hit combo: 6K, WR K(duck 3rd hit)
46AA3B: 3B, CE(difficult)
22AA3B: 3B, CE(difficult)
WR B: BB
6kB: 6K
2K: FC 2B
FC 2K: FC 2B
BT 2K: FC 2B
1K: FC 2B
11K: FC 2B
77K: FC 2B
4K: AA(close)
8_9K: 6K, AA
B+KB2K: 6K, WR K(Block 1st hit, duck the 2nd hit, interrupt the 3rd hit)
2B+K: 6K(perfect timing), BB
22_88B: 6K
66KA2K: 6K, 214A or 1K(block first hit then interrupt)
66KAK: 214A or 1K(block first hit then interrupt)
33{K}: 6K
44K: 6K(close)
Run K: FC 2K
FLY B: 3B
FLY K: BB
623A: 6K, BB
623AK: 6K(Yoshi's back to wall)
623A2K: 6K
623K: 6K
623KK: 3B, CE
 
Pardon the double post to bump, but I added Devil Jin, Ezio, and Dampierre to the first page. Yoshimitsu Match-up thread is done. All that needs to be done is I need to double check all of these to see if they're correct. Then I'm gonna have to reorganize them again.

Gonna be a long task, but hopefully someone will help me, right?
 
I did want to mention that Ezio's 6K2 is completely unpunishable on hit if Ezio uses it at the right distance (agaisnt Yoshi). If you block it or he uses it up close and it hits you're fine and since it's i24 you should be able to see it.
 
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