A+B?

ShenYu

ShenYu

[11] Champion
So I always thought this move was shit. I mean two hits and the second whiffs most of the time for free punish fun time. What the hell?

Well I was playing yesterday and I randomly threw it out once and noticed it actually had a lot of range. Then I tried it more and not only that, at that range, it feels like it has this inexplicable property that allows it to crush a lot of moves. Maybe it has a weird hitbox. If you space it properly, the second hit also won't whiff. I'm thinking it might be a worthwhile tool to move in against spacier characters. Does anyone else use this move?
 
After a sidestep left, both hits of A+B hit. Outside of 33B combos, I rarely use this, but given that it may be a powerful TJ option, I might begin to use it afterall. There are alot of tech traps afterwords as well, but thats Lags story to tell, not mine.

-Idle
 
I remember how much better this move was in SC2 and in SC3, so the move looks lackluster to me. That said, it does TJ pretty well, but I generally use 9B, because it's more straightforward. Against spacier characters, I often find it's just a tad too slow to be all that useful, but it does have it's place. For example, against characters like Mina who have a lot of lows with range.
 
I've been trying to apply this for a long time now, but Im not really into cass that much. lots of underused moves have good potential though.
 
jep like her 6K,but anyway..i like to use B+K after an good range 6B...that helps a lot..because almost everytime i hit with the second hit(dont ask me why) ..but everytime i play against the com K.i. he uses after B+K, 2B(yeah i know someone gonna tell me know,the com sucks,but i`ve learned many things from the k.i.) =)
 
LGInfinite said:
I remember how much better this move was in SC2 and in SC3, so the move looks lackluster to me. That said, it does TJ pretty well, but I generally use 9B, because it's more straightforward. Against spacier characters, I often find it's just a tad too slow to be all that useful, but it does have it's place. For example, against characters like Mina who have a lot of lows with range.
Click to expand...
That's the thing. I've been finding it flat out beating stuff like Xianghua 3B and 6A. It's weird.
 
It does have its uses. Mainly after 33B though. But, it does hit from a fair ways away (you can hit someone from the start of the match), and you can use it to jump over some stuff. Its great for slamming a throw-spamming yoda back down to the ground... I sometimes toss it out as an opening move, which you can follow with a 236B if it hits, particularly if your opponent tosses out something low right away.
 
A+B will beat out X's 44B in a lot of cases. That being said, I play this game so little now that I still throw it out too much as a force of habit from SC2 when it was golden.
 
Since it was asked, here are my thoughts/analysis:

Outside of 33B combos, I tentatively want to say that A+B is only generally going to be useful for its TJ properties against slow, ranged lows - or if you want a decent TJ punisher when you think your opponent is going to 2A/2K you while at disadvantage. The move TJ's late. A+B is an i25 move that has TJ properties starting on the 17th frame and lasting all the way until the impact frame.

A+B is really unsafe if the first hit gets blocked and the second hit whiffs. When spaced properly, or when your opponent is just somehow on the proper axis so that the second hit gets blocked though, then the move becomes safe and it force crouches your opponent as well (see the frame data thread for the difference in safety at close vs. max range). Also, it is sometimes possible for the first part to hit but have the second part whiff because your opponent is off-axis or something even though the move is technically a natural combo.

You get guarantees if the second hit of A+B lands and knocks your opponent down. 3B is probably the safest guarantee to not screw up somehow (plus it was a combo back in the SC2 days so it stuck with me); however, there is one potentially very annoying tech trap option as well. Either ways, your basic guaranteed options after A+B knockdown are:

3B
236B
1K
1B
2K

If you are looking to tech trap after the A+B knockdown instead of your guarantees (with the potential of a RO on both options if they tech), then you get two choices:

1A
4BB:A

4BB:A will catch tech in all directions, but it will whiff against grounded and rollers (there might be character specific exceptions to the grounded/roller thing - but the move definitely whiffs against Cass). Also, normally, A+B grounds face down; however, if you somehow ground them face up (such as hitting them with A+B when they are back turned) then 4BB:A becomes guaranteed as it will give them a minor ground re-bounce which 4BB:A can then pickup.

1A deserve special mention because the situation it generates is somewhat unique and can be really annoying if your opponent does not know how to avoid it.

If your opponent is on the 1P side (left side of the screen), then 1A is basically guaranteed after the A+B knockdown. If they tech, then they will be regrounded.

Now here is the first tricky part: if your opponent is on the 2P side (right side of the screen), and if they tech to their left, the 1A gets blocked. In other words, your opponent has to hold 1_2_3G. If they do anything else, the 1A is guaranteed. If they tech wrong, the 1A will re-ground. Also, it should be noted that the semi-avoidable 1A cannot be delay 2G'ed. They MUST commit to the tech early. Another difference when they are on the 2P side is that if you somehow knock them down face up (again, such as if they were in a back turned state when you nailed them with A+B), then if they tech left using 1_2_3G, instead of blocking 1A, the 1A just whiffs completely.

Here is the second tricky part about them being on the 2P side: Even if they block or avoid the 1A, the 1A is somehow "safer" than usual. Normally 1A on its own is -17 on block, but for whatever reason, when used as a tech trap after an A+B knockdown, the 1A becomes -15. Unfortunately, that means you can still be crouch thrown; but it does make the move slightly less punishable for most of the cast.

Also, one additional note. If they make the mistake of teching and being re-grounded by 1A, then FC 1B is basically guaranteed similar to if you had performed the regular 1A,FC 1B combo. If they try to tech the FC 1B after their mistake of teching the 1A, then FC 1B will hit and put them in a BT state as they get up. If they take a regular grounded hit of 1A though, then they can block the FC 1B or whatever else you throw at them while they are on the ground. I wouldn't use 236B after they get re-grounded by 1A because it has some random whiffing issues for some reason. FC 1B seems to be more consistent if you are keeping up the offensive pressure.

Here are so fun relative numbers to chew on though if you are concerned about damage comparison on NH:

A+B,3B = 30+18
A+B,236B = 30+24
A+B,1K = 30+13
A+B,1B = 30+12
A+B,2K = 30+10
A+B,1A (ground) = 30+21
A+B,1A (tech) = 30+29
A+B,1A (tech), FC 1B (ground) = 30+29+13
A+B,1A (tech), FC 1B (tech) = 30+29+18
A+B,4BB:A (tech) = 30+37

Anyways, the move is pretty interesting and has some merits, but not something I would personally abuse since it is launch punishable if you do not space it correctly.
 
"You get guarantees if the second hit of A+B lands and knocks your opponent down. 3B is probably the safest guarantee to not screw up somehow (plus it was a combo back in the SC2 days so it stuck with me); however, there is one potentially very annoying tech trap option as well. Either ways, your basic guaranteed options after A+B knockdown are:

3B
236B
1K
1B
2K"

I thought none of these are guaranteed if they don't tech at all...
 
ETB said:
"You get guarantees if the second hit of A+B lands and knocks your opponent down. 3B is probably the safest guarantee to not screw up somehow (plus it was a combo back in the SC2 days so it stuck with me); however, there is one potentially very annoying tech trap option as well. Either ways, your basic guaranteed options after A+B knockdown are:

3B
236B
1K
1B
2K"

I thought none of these are guaranteed if they don't tech at all...
Click to expand...

A+B knocks them down in a state that you get guarantees while they are on the ground afterwards. All of those moves can potentially hit grounded and should be considered part of her oki game anytime you generate a knockdown at close range. Of course, there are other moves you can use for her oki as well (33K and 1A come to mind).

A+B,3B has been a combo since SC2 and is the option I generally use just out of habit.
 
With a bit of prodding from Idle/KDZ/Rigel after they did some experimentation, I went ahead and did some more testing on A+B to see who Cass can "more consistently" get both hits of A+B blocked instead of just having the second hit whiff.

Testing was done vs the 1P models of the cast and at various ranges and with various axis alignments.

Basically, some character have some sort of blocking hitbox that allows the 2nd hit of A+B to not just straight up whiff if the first hit gets blocked. Obviously you WANT the 2nd hit to be able to land because the Force Crouch on Block property makes the move basically safe.

The following characters will end up blocking the 2nd hit of A+B most of the time regardless of spacing or axis alignment:

Lizardman
Astaroth*

*At point blank you want to be a bit to Cass' right - if you are off-axis to her left you tend to whiff the second hit


The following characters will end up blocking the 2nd hit of A+B fairly consistently, as long as you have a bit of space (so do not be at point blank range):

Mitsurugi
Voldo
Kilik
Seong Mi-Na
Rock
Cervantes
Zasalamel


The following characters will end up blocking the 2nd hit of A+B, with a bit of spacing, close to probably a 50/50 chance. So, use at your own risk:

Siegfried
Nightmare


The following characters will end up blocking the 2nd hit of A+B, with a bit of spacing, probably less than 1/3 of the time. You are definitely taking a wild gamble here, so, again, use at your own risk:

Yun-Seong
Yoshimitsu
Algol


The following characters are characters you should not be using A+B on, unless you space it correctly. Otherwise, you are probably going to whiff the second hit and eat a launcher if they block it:

Darth Vader
Yoda
Apprentice
Sophitia
Amy
Setsuka
Cassandra
Raphael
Taki
Hilde
Maxi
Tira
Xianghua
Ivy
Talim
 
Yah...I always tried spacing it for effectiveness...but absolutely no abusing...

To be honest 66 A+B was my medium heavy hitter, just enough to be safe, has some distance on it, and tracks just a bit.
 
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