BD tier list impressions

Ooofmatic

Ooofmatic

World Warrior
Official SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

Something-Unique said:
Oofmatic:

Hilde #1 (again)
Setsuka #2 (have u seen the changes I posted for her in the SC:BD thread for Setsuka) Jesus christ she is beast.
Dampierre #3 (11B is enough in itself even though its unsafe and that's not even considering the things u were telling me)
Kilik #4 (Still uber strong even with the Asura nerf)

Edit: SC:BD: (God Tier - Hilde) (Top Tier - Setsuka, Dampierre, Kilik). Not sure about Amy because she is the same and the new GI window plus super buffed step game hits her hard. Not to sure about Voldo either now that I think about it with all his nerfs but imagine he is still strong. Yoshimitsu might have moved up a noticeable margin and he might be in top now.

Something like that!
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Replace Dampierre with Kratos and I think you might have something more accrurate.

Here' my quick chart based on my current impression on them based on my experience using them, and fighting them in Vs mode and against the AI:

Top - Setsuka, Amy, Hilde, Kratos, Kilik
Upper Mid - Dampierre, Voldo, Cervantes, Astaroth, Yoshimitsu, Zasalamel, Cassandra, Sophitia
Mid - Ivy, Algol, Taki, Raphael, Nightmare, Siegfried, Lizardman, Mitsurugi, Xianghua
Lower Mid - Rock, Yun-Seong, Maxi, Talim, Tira
Bottom - Seong-Mina

I'm sure I'm way off in some of those, such as Yoshimitsu like you mentioned. But this is just a quick mock up chart to start off with.

Even though Dampierre has powerful combos, (and not just 11B which I don't even view as one of his best moves), he has major flaws that hold him back. Mainly his randomness, lack of range, and the fact that all his good moves can be easily stepped and he doesn't really have any good step killers aside from 4A.

Perhaps a new thread should be made in the BD section for this discussion.

/edit/ copied over
 
Official SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

Something-Unique said:
Dampierre #3 (11B is enough in itself even though its unsafe and that's not even considering the things u were telling me)
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I don't think you've taken a look in Damp's SA recently. A+B is better than 11B in almost every case, has more applications, and it's safe.
 
Official SC4 Tier List And Character Guides

Tiamat:

Can't speak for others but I know that belief does not apply to me whatsoever.

I base tier placings on what tools a character has, how practical and applicable are they, and matchups. To me it doesn't matter how much damage a character does if said tool can't be applied in practical terms. Setsuka was one of the characters that had me fooled and now that I use her in and out its obvious that her application is lacking among other flaws.

Hilde in SC4 is another case for me in that sure she can ring u out like no other but in reality what happens is that she doesn't. Not to mention there are a number of stages that help eliminate that ability if u pay attention to ur surroundings. If every stage in this game was The Labyrinth or that raft stage then she would be broke as fuck. That's the reason I don't think she is broke because if she is not ringing me out I have all the time in the world to kill her no matter how safe she is because of her low damage output.

Oofmatic:

Yeah a new thread may be needed. Dampierre is so strong at his basics though even with his randomness from other tools its hard to imagine they impact his game that much. Don't know much about Kratos (honestly) and Amy I totally disagree with mainly because of the new GI window and the insane buff in step game for SC:BD. Setsuka is beast without question in SC:BD not even mentioning her property buffs but she is not better than Hilde (that I do not believe at all). I mean Setsuka is my main in SC:BD now as I have dropped Kilik to a second hence the sig. Rock should also be in mid.

Eyce_Theon said:
I don't think you've taken a look in Damp's SA recently. A+B is better than 11B in almost every case, has more applications, and it's safe.
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Yeah Oofmatic was telling me about it the other day in chat.
 
Suddenly, BD discussion. That's cool.

On the topic of Dampierre, I feel that Oofmatic's opinion is mostly correct on why he wouldn't be top tier in this game. He has excellent damage potential, but only off of easily stepped moves. His RO game is rather good, but very linear and situationally to the right. His only real anti-step game is made of highs, slow/short range lows, and grabs.
 
lol that was faster than I thought lol.

Something-Unique said:
Oofmatic:

To coincide with what I responded to Tiamat with in regards to Hilde and to provide better info to continue my reasoning for her being broke in SC:BD I provide u with this info.

My reasoning for her being God Tier is a cross reference to those exact statements. There is no longer situational Ring outs to be concerned about. Instead u have to worry about ridiculous damage from tools that are spammable and safe at all times. You can't be as risky in stepping because one C2A or C3A charge will have u questioning even pressing her.

How will u pressure Hilde? What will be the one flaw u can actually expose without being at a higher risk of eating a shit load of damage? In a sense u can say the damage from SC doom combo is apparent all over the place minus the ring out capabilities which in SC4 u shouldn't be getting hit by that much if at all anyway if ur a smart competitor. She is totally safe with plus frames to boot and there is no reason as a Hilde player in SC:BD to be scared of turtling because her keepout is monstrous. Seriously she can dictate the match from start to finish at all times. Every advancement in design to the game also benefits her more than anyone else (that's even considering Dampierre's possibly better post GI game).
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Ripped from the other thread as I did not know u were creating it so fast lol.

Eyce_Theon:

The Dampierre info does sound reasonable. Hmmmmm
 
S-U, like I said it's just a quick chart thrown together, but yeah I can agree that Rock is mid and Amy upper mid rather than top.

Just having good basics isn't enough to make a character top tier, so I don't think Dampierre should be up there because of that. Top tier characters have great strengths with very few weaknesses, and Dampierre most definitely has big weaknesses that can be taken advantage of.

I haven't gone too in depth with him, but from what I've learned with Kratos, he seems like a powerhouse. Just his B+K CR K is 'godly' with it's evasive ability (tech jumps and evades backwards, safe, and good damage). Kratos has a lot of potential, so nothing can be set in stone with him yet. If he comes to console and is tourney legal I'm sure that's when we'll truly find out what he's capable of.

Eyce_Theon said:
On the topic of Dampierre, I feel that Oofmatic's opinion is mostly correct on why he wouldn't be top tier in this game. .
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I'm assuming you said "mostly" because you probably disagree with me saying his "lack of range" is a weakness.

While he does have good range with some moves (especially 33B), the majority of his moveset has given me problems when it comes to range. Moves like 3K end up whiffing when I expect them to hit because of the range. Aside from those few ranged moves he has, I do consider his range to be a weakness.
 
Oofmatic:

Amy is clearly the same character and hasn't received anything. She already had step issues in SC4 and it can only be a bagillion times worse in SC:BD because of the buffed step. She hasn't benefited like other characters from Post-GI and especially those up there in the top. She can only fall.

Rock's new no repect for damaging scaling in SC:BD makes him a problem but because it's still 50/50 he can't move up that much realistically but enough to be noticable if u start guessing wrong which will happen as the way the game is designed that's what will happen. Its the main reason why Astaroth is such a bitch for any character in SC4 no matter if ur the smarter competitor or not. Guessing wrong against damaging throws like that will cost u because its out of the player's ability (which is why I yearn for Tekken design throw escapes). Hence Saitoh's Astaroth and it being so scary as he gets down to the nitty gritty which is forcing throw pressure and maximizing bullrush. It's just so many throws to be concerned about.

Your logic on dampierre makes sense.

Kratos I will probably never go in depth with unless he was thrown in my face since I pay no attention to guest characters lol since they are subject to bans etc.
 
Hilde is not god tier anymore, but still top to me... Now I can GI al her charged moves :), even tough, her dmg buff makes her as fearful as ever.
Setsuka is better witouth a question, but I think it´s she has the same problem that she has in SC4, exectuion in order to get the best of her, I mean, almost every char has JF´s, but the real deal is if it needs it, so Setsuka can be played without all of her JF´s, but it´s not so fearful, but I´m sure there will be skilled players that can deal with that as always.

I can speak of Yoshimitsu, the scale dmg helped him a lot in every combo that u can use 4A series (I only used that for specific RO´s, but now is the bread and butter), and the new height of 3B+K:B giving him powerful combos and deadly tech traps... Anyway, even if those ain´t aplied Yoshi is like he used to be in 1.02. Oh, and getting 4 "44bB´s" after CH 3B is priceless, char specific tough, but I´m not just talking about Asta, Rock and Zasa, but others small chars like Tira.

Mitsurugi is upper mid or top in BD to me, he is faster, stronger and it seems that the programers were fans of him back in SC2, CH 33K knocks down hehehe, 4KB being mostly safe, 3B is -12 or -13 now and even 66A+B, 2A is back, new k:B combo in juggles, and a few other aditons.

Even Tira is more competitive now, but she´s still random as far as I know... But her dmg is great.

Mina, still the same or worst to me, but I still like her.

Astaroth seems nerfed, but as long as he has his super grabs and bullrush, he is a respectful char.

And I agree, I´m not sure about Voldo, he seems nerfed for the most part, as well as Amy, but I´d have to wait to see the best players.

Xianghua... I only noted standard dmg buff in her combos so far.
 
Ivy is probably the most changed character in the game again. Im listing all her changes here.I think she can still be high-mid.
 
lolo:

Nice info!

Ring:

So she is essentially the same in terms of placement or is she slighter better or slightly worse. I can't tell since I see alot of buffs and nerfs.

Also I notice u have WP 3A (CH), CL A, A+K as a combo. Does it really work cause I could not get that to work?

Angrel-San:

I'm not sure why myself either.
 
So far I think she is slightly worse, but I keep finding new stuff all the time. Today I found that CL 1B,B+K gives a wallsplat in combos now. Most of her best tools from SC4 got a slight nerf, while they buffed some other stuff nicely (like, WP BB and CL BB are now NC with + frames on hit)

And yeah, CH WP 3A combos, but its advantage on CH varies depending on range. It's +12 at close range (nothing is guaranteed), and +14 od mid and far range (CL A,A+K is guaranteed) but the move is worse. It's not i16 anymore, I think it's i18 now. But they buffed WP 4A now, it knocks down on CH and CL236BB is guaranteed.
 
Its good to know i'm not crazy when told yall that combo didn't work! Didn't know it was a range thing (why would they do that).

Good to know. At the rate things are going she will probably end up being slightly better to u in the long run.

General stuff:

Did I ever mention that it takes 10 GI's to crush the SG and 5.? JI's to crush the SG in SC:BD. It's insane and the same rules apply to auto-GI's/JI's as well.
 
Without the threat of force blocks, there was just no reason to have Mi-na's soul gauge damage decreased. None.

In IV, whenever she knocks you down you're most likely to suffer major damage to your gauge with safe moves or face mixups. And when you're in the red, you're shitting yourself in your Fruit of the Looms because she suddenly metamorphs from bottom-tier to not-really-bottom-tier.

Her applying her soul gauge/mixup strategy from knockdown moves is critical to playing her to utmost potential. I always thought she was designed with that in mind; that it just took a lot of thinking and clever play to make her competitive. She's still a flawed and difficult character to make the right decisions with, but at the very least she could be a threat.

However, NOW, in Broken Destiny - stepping has been buffed. Opponents appear to be able to roll and tech faster off the ground. Not only can she no longer force them to block 66_44A+B after a knockdown but the block count has been increased from 8 to 11 on 66A+B and 7 to 9 on 44A+B. Seriously? After all the stupid shit that other characters have that stays in, they nerfed this? Guess we were all wrong after all. She was never designed that way to begin with. We are just lucky enough in IV to be able to take advantage of the system.

Don't confuse this post with whining or complaining. It's just stating my opinion on the matter. Because to be honest, if anyone were to ask if I'll drop her, the answer is no. I'll just do what I can.
 
Haven't checked many characters in BD yet, but I have to agree with Setsuka and Hilde. Setsuka is even better in terms of damage, but I was shocked mostly by her step. It's so good now (it's the same with most characters now). Hilde again will rule the game, but at least C2AA doesn't give that retarded slide RO anymore. The damage buff is really big, but I still prefer to loose 1/3 of life instead of getting KOed after one hit =]

Something-Unique said:
Its good to know i'm not crazy when told yall that combo didn't work! Didn't know it was a range thing (why would they do that).

Good to know. At the rate things are going she will probably end up being slightly better to u in the long run.
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WP 3A is probably one of the best SS killers in SC4, so it was too good for BD. I'm not sure if you ever knew, but in SC4 1.02, WP 3A was safe, and neutral on NH (-6 in 1.03), 70dmg combo on CH. That was just broken.
 
Okay, Rock's ground throws do damage scale if comboed into through stun, which is the main problem to begin with. So that problem has not changed.

That being said, Rock's damage buff may not mean as much since I'm hearing the huge damage buffs everyone is getting. The same for Tira. Rock's game lies in taking hits until he gets that one big hit that changes the flow of the game. But if everyone is hitting harder, he may not actually get there.

Tira hits hard now, but it was landing a hit that was the challenge to begin with. I haven't tried it, but there better be something I'm missing about Setsuka and Hilde, cause they're looking pretty good right now.
 
Ring:

Setsuka:
Her best 33B [CH combo is 89-Damage. Hot!
Her best 4A [CH combo is 100-Damage. Hot!
Her best Post-Step tool (ag:B) combos for 100-Damage (It also fits in the GI window). Hot!
Her 1B:B NH combo is 82-Damage and can no longer be GI'ed or JI'ed in between and is safe and pushes back. Hot!
Her Fc 3B:B [CH stuns from first hit now making it more viable to play around with as a CH hunting tool and leads to 73-Damage. Hot!
Her Umbrella now punishes for 49-Damage as a i12-Frame move. Hot!
Her 214B+G leads to 83-Damage. Hot! (Her A+G issues have all been cleaned up)
Your also correct in that her step game is beast now as well!

Taken from my post in Setsuka BD topic!

"1B:B, 1B:B, 214~3B:B, 214~3a:B, 33B = 91-Damage (This combo might be guaranteed and if it is the most absolute perfect timing for it is required in terms of buffering the 214~3B:B)."

This shit might be guaranteed cause when the computer does it I keep getting hit trying to shake it but I need more testing!


I can understand the preference in how some people feel about Hilde. It's reasonable but I swear if its the last thing I do I will main her and make people see otherwise (if it becomes playable in tournaments).

Damn and I can't stand WP 3A in SC4 as its one of the moves I hate the most. I guess you really can't be mad at it if it was like that before. That's insane!

Khent:

Mina was ass to begin with lol!

D_Matt_Ma:

So even considering that u don't believe he could be in the same tier as mid now. I'm asking because I thought it would be enough to at least propel him that high. So does the computer cheat there ass off in this game or something because I swear in some of those traps that shit rips my health apart. It could be possible as Hilde almost fooled me as well seeing her do C3A's back to back no charge time etc.
 
I know Hilde's got her damage buff now, but I don't see why anyone's exploding about it. Especially since all of her charges seem alot easier to step now (even C3A). If you refuse to play her game, she will no longer dominate you.

Mina and Ivy's changes definitely don't make sense is a "this is what we wanted this character to be" way. I seriously think Broken Destiny was rushed out of development before their changes were completed. I'm just glad they gave Rock a higher priority when they started making changes, he gets more legit ground throw attempts now.

OOFMATIC said:
I'm assuming you said "mostly" because you probably disagree with me saying his "lack of range" is a weakness.

While he does have good range with some moves (especially 33B), the majority of his moveset has given me problems when it comes to range. Moves like 3K end up whiffing when I expect them to hit because of the range. Aside from those few ranged moves he has, I do consider his range to be a weakness.
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Well, Range probably is his greatest issue =/ all his long range moves are either very steppable or slow high moves. He can somewhat make up for that with his collection of TC/TJ moves, if you're good at reading the opponent. step forward>A+B has some great range, but that makes it even more steppable.

I don't think his other two detriments are as harsh as you put them though.

33B is the only randomized move he should use as a combo starter, and the benefits far outweigh the risk. It's a long range, tech crouching mid or a long range, tech jumping Poker Bluff transition; if it works, you're either starting a combo for at LEAST 82 damage, or putting yourself in close crouching proximity to them on block. If it falls into PB, you either just jumped a low that you now have the opportunity to punish, or you got hit by something that likely won't be comboing you because you were airborne or grounded at the time. (though, it is rather weak to step...)

His anti-step is kinda bad, but he's got some options. 4A/8A/WR A are rather slow for highs, but they're useable. 1A GIs weapon based highs and lows while sweeping around him, I usually have pretty good luck with that. His best anti-step imo is a delayed grab, or step>grab, he's got excellent grab range for his size. If you use grabs enough, you can start kGing to fake them out and hit with a good mid (a slower kG looks ALOT like the start of a grab)

EDIT: lol SU, the computer does cheat like hell, but not with Rock. With Hilde they can release any charge they want at any time as you said, and with Dampierre they're not affected by randomness. They can 33B all day and never fall on their faces.
 
Setsuka's damage is just slightly worse than in SC3. That's pretty crazy. I checked 2x1B:B and the second one gives a stun that is a mix between shakable and nonshakable. That means moves up to i?? are guaranteed. I recorded on another Setsuka 1B:B, 1B:B, 214K (i14) and the last kick always hits. Which means there is something guaranteed after that, you just need to find what's the best followup. 1B:B, 1B:B, JF umbrella, 33B is definitely a combo (btw was 33B a guaranteed followup after 2143a:B in SC4?) FC 3B is i15 so it might be connectable as well.

I can't believe how dangerous she is now. Ivy's damage seems garbage compared to Setsuka now.
 
Eyce:

Yeah the computer definitely be cheating. Hilde is broken as the CPU!

Ring said:
That's pretty crazy. I checked 2x1B:B and the second one gives a stun that is a mix between shakable and nonshakable.
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This intrigues me cause I think I know what u are talking about but never understood it. Sometimes when u connect 1B:B into 1B:B their is a different stun and damage. I just chalked it up to maybe a difference in timing the second 1B:B. If one is truly un-shakeable its worth exploring as it does the same thing in SC4.

The i15 214~3B:B sounds even more reasonable as guaranteed after the 2x 1B:B if i14 is guaranteed. I'm starting to think it is cause the computer always gets me and when I do it myself in training it doesn't work which leads me to believe it has to be done in the fastest buffer or its as a result of that other unshakeable stun u speak of.

Not sure about the 33B being guaranteed after Umbrella in SC4.

Sets definitely is scary in this game but I think she deserves the majority of her damage if not all since all her outrageous damaging combos are insanely difficult hence the pro tags next to them in the topic.

As far as Ivy goes at least ur iCS and SS are easier to do now (lol).
 
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