Cervantes Matchup: Discussion

Slade said:
Oprah can DNS K or CE punish bA on block. 4AB → DNS B will work on whiff.
Pyrrha's options are shittier. She gets 6BK/CE on block and 4A series on whiff.

No disrespect intended, but I think you're overselling bA a bit. Most characters get a pretty strong punish on it due to it giving a free CH—even shitty/low damage punishers get pretty good damage on it for the most part (Aeon gets 4B → 66K/6B BE, Asta gets 6AA, Raphael gets 6B BE, Leixia gets AA BE, Nightmare gets CH 6K, et cetera). I see it as being similar to Nightmare's GS A. Both give great damage in the right circumstances (bA aGIs something, GS A gets a CH), but are also unsafe, high, and prone to a generalized form of counter (highs/lows for bA, horizontals for GS A). It's a useful niche tool and a handy aGI to have, but not something to orient an entire playstyle around.
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If they predict you're going to do it Pyrrha gets a free 4B.
 
Nobody tells you to use bA just on close range. Also you simply dont use it in those matchups where opponent have strong punishers. Pyrrha does not get a 4A, wtf. 4A is so slow the moment you realize its already too late to punish. She has to anticipate it and then do 4A.

For the other chars you are listing moves which 1) have horrible range and 2) nobody ever said to use bA in those matchups.

One uses bA when the opponent has a lot of midrange mid attacks. Nobody would ever use it against Nightmare or Asta due to AGA, 4A etc.
 
bA is an anti-whiff punishing move. Meaning, its use is limited against most western-style play. Very good against people with solid whiff punishing.

And cervantes is an okay top tier. you all just dont know how to fight him.

Cerv Pyrr is 4-6 pyrr favour. Xeph thinks so too (last time i spoke to him) and xeph plays hates and hates is goooooooood. so goood.
 
How about you guys come to Singapore? We'll teach you how to play against Cervantes.

P.S. Docvizzo already came here for durian, no count. :P
 
docvizzo said:
Nobody tells you to use bA just on close range. Also you simply dont use it in those matchups where opponent have strong punishers. Pyrrha does not get a 4A, wtf. 4A is so slow the moment you realize its already too late to punish. She has to anticipate it and then do 4A.

For the other chars you are listing moves which 1) have horrible range and 2) nobody ever said to use bA in those matchups.

One uses bA when the opponent has a lot of midrange mid attacks. Nobody would ever use it against Nightmare or Asta due to AGA, 4A etc.
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4A is only i18.......

ShenYuan said:
bA is an anti-whiff punishing move. Meaning, its use is limited against most western-style play. Very good against people with solid whiff punishing.

And cervantes is an okay top tier. you all just dont know how to fight him.

Cerv Pyrr is 4-6 pyrr favour. Xeph thinks so too (last time i spoke to him) and xeph plays hates and hates is goooooooood. so goood.
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The way I see it is if you're whiff punishing you should know what it is they whiffed and what move to use. bA is distinct enough and the recovery is slow enough, that anyone should be able to realize what was whiffed before they take action.
 
CapnCrump said:
4A is only i18.......



The way I see it is if you're whiff punishing you should know what it is they whiffed and what move to use. bA is distinct enough and the recovery is slow enough, that anyone should be able to realize what was whiffed before they take action.
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Thats is not how bA works. Yes 4A is i18. So is Cervys bA. So if Cervy does his bA 2-3 Frames before Pyrrha attacks with either 66A, 3B, 3A, 66A+B etc, you will get the GI. If he whiffs and Pyrrha didnt do a move usually bAs recovery is so fast its super hard to punish (except with her CE)

Imagine a situation where both players just step around at midrange and one has to make a move. And usually Pyrrha makes a mid on this range or she tries to get into close range. You use bA at the same time, anticipating an attack from your opponent. You will whiff bA, the opponents mid hits you 2-3 Frames later if you timed it right, he gets GIed and you get a free iGDR, 3B, 4B Be whatever.

Of course the bA needs to be timed well and you need to read your opponents attacks etc well. But especially against Phyrrha its very strong since she doesnt have long ranged high attacks like AGA etc. In other Matchups its quite useless.

Jesus Christ take it or leave it. Im not saying this move alone wins the matchup but Cervy has every possible tool one could dream of to fight Pyrrha.

Top Spacing, top throws, top punishment for ducked moves, top soul gauge game, good lows, one of the best Antisteps in the game...how can he possibly be in disadvantage against Pyrrha.
 
docvizzo said:
Of course the bA needs to be timed well and you need to read your opponents attacks etc well. But especially against Phyrrha its very strong since she doesnt have long ranged high attacks like AGA etc. In other Matchups its quite useless.
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It's useless in this matchup just like in most others. 4A IS a whiff punish for bA. It IS a long ranged move. And since you're in CH state 4AB works as a whiff punish. So that means IF the Pyrrha attacks you get a GI. But that also means when you whiff and she does nothing you eat a 100% free 64 damage (78 if she decides to use some meter with it) combo. And you're stuck in the wake up hell that is Pyrrha's oki game.

Also there is no need to get defensive. :/ It's just a simple conversation. Something this SA was in need of.
 
CapnCrump said:
It's useless in this matchup just like in most others. 4A IS a whiff punish for bA. It IS a long ranged move. And since you're in CH state 4AB works as a whiff punish. So that means IF the Pyrrha attacks you get a GI. But that also means when you whiff and she does nothing you eat a 100% free 64 damage (78 if she decides to use some meter with it) combo. And you're stuck in the wake up hell that is Pyrrha's oki game.

Also there is no need to get defensive. :/ It's just a simple conversation. Something this SA was in need of.
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So what? Risk/Reward is in Cervys favour. Thats the whole point. It is massively in Cervys favour. It counters 80% of her midrange moves except 4A. Thats perfect. What more do you guys want? This is not SC4 where you try to be safe all fucking day. You guess wrong and you eat damage, thats how this game is designed. IF she does 4A sure she gets damage, who cares? If she does the other 10 Moves i get damage, much more than she does.

If you think its useless you have no idea, sorry. Or you dont understand how risk/reward works. The risk of eating a 4A is way below the reward it gets. Thats one of the reasons why top tiers are top tiers. Imbalanced risk/reward on moves. bA is such a move in certain matchups. In addition it forces Pyrrha to be more passiv in those situations, giving you more time to space her. People complained about Cervy not beeing able to punish her 3B, like this is a big fucking deal. IF she spams 3B then use bA in anticipation and counter it.

I know Kira thinks its good, i think its brilliant, even Shenyuan said its good, i annoyed the fuck out of top players with this move etc. Its not theory talk. Really cant say more than that. Its not like im playing with scrubs and make up these things.

Just try it instead of pointing out that 4A beats it. Like 4A was ever a problem to anyone. If she counters all your bAs she deserved to win. Mindgame etc.
 
bA is -50 on whiff. That's about on par with most moves, although bA's recovery does seem faster than usual. Getting hit during the aGI window with a high/low gives a CH. 4AB → DNS B is 85 damage. If it stays as effective as it currently is, it's because people aren't learning to recognize it and punish with the proper moves. As for its efficacy in certain matchups, only a select few don't have good options against it:
αPat: 44B+K BE (block/whiff) ⎸100+ damage
Aeon: 4B → 66K/6B BE (block/whiff) ⎸63/80 damage
Algol: 6BBB (block/whiff) ⎸≅35 damage, sets up bubble; 6AAB (whiff) ⎸≅60 damage
Astaroth: 66B → 4B/66K BE (block/whiff) ⎸46/74 damage
Cervantes: aB (close block) ⎸40 damage; CE (block/whiff); 4KK (mid range block)
Dampierre: 6A → 1B (all but tip block) ⎸34 damage
Ezio: 6B/6B BE (block) ⎸28/70; 6AAB (whiff); CE (block/whiff); 6B+K (long range whiff)
Hilde: CE (block) ⎸95 damage; 6AKB or 66B BE on whiff for loop combos
Ivy: 6B8K (block/whiff) ⎸40 damage; CE (whiff punish/block mixup) ⎸100 damage; 6[A] (long range whiff punish) ⎸34 damage
Leixia: AAB (block) ⎸40; AA BE (block) ⎸60; 4K → CE (block)
Maxi: CE (block/whiff) ⎸80; bA is a strong counter to WR B+K (whiff over TC, aGIs the hit)—can be beaten with WR b+kG → RO AK; 6A+B will stuff bA's startup in many situations but loses to the aGI if done too late. Maxi's options for dealing with bA are among the worst.
Mitsurugi: 6B8 (block) ⎸32 damage; B6 (block/whiff) ⎸STN, damage depends on followup
Natsu: AAB (block) ⎸48 damage; A:6 (block) ⎸42 + KND; 4B → 3KKK → 1A (block); 66AB (block/whiff)
Nightmare: 6K → 1A (block/whiff); 6(B) → NSS K → 2A+B (block/whiff); iagA (block/whiff)
Patroklos: 6K (block) ⎸24 damage; CE (block/whiff) ⎸90 damage
Pyrrha: 6BK (block) ⎸30 damage; CE (block/whiff) ⎸70 damage; 4AAA or 4AB → 66B BE (whiff)
Pyrrha Ω: NS K → DNS B (block/whiff) ⎸49 damage; DNS A → NS B:4 (whiff) ⎸70ish damage; 4AB → DNS B (whiff) ⎸83 damage; CE (block/whiff) ⎸90 damage
Raphael: 6BBB (block/whiff) ⎸38 damage; 6B BE (block/whiff) ⎸66 damage
Siegfried: 6A (block/whiff); CE (whiff) ⎸70-93 damage. One of the few with shitty options.
Tira: JS 6AB (block/whiff) ⎸36 damage; JS 4A → CE (whiff); CE (block/whiff); 4K (block) ⎸damage varies
Viola: No one cares, fuck this character.
Voldo: 6B BE (block); 6ABA (whiff); WR AA → 66B BE (whiff)
Xiba: 6A BE (whiff); AAK (whiff); 66KB (whiff); only K/2K on block
Yoshimitsu: CH a:B+K combo (block); 4AAAAA (block/whiff) ⎸60 damage; 6K (block/whiff); CH 44b:B combo (block/whiff); CE (block/whiff)
ZWEI: CH 6A combo (whiff); 4KB (block); [A] (block)
Of course, punishing it becomes much harder at longer ranges (many options become unfeasible unless bA is blocked or ducked up close), but it still gives them an opportunity to run in at advantage. Still, players acquainted with this matchup should be able to avoid the pitfall of attempting to whiff punish bA with mids simply on the merit of bA being distinguishable from other moves when whiffed.
Caveat: I'm not commenting on Cerv's matchups or tier placement, just on bA.
 
bA is really good against players who are really good at whiff punishing. It also plays a part in killing step and it's really deadly at the corner. However it is not a 1-move wonder, if it is used with other moves as a charade, this move is amazing good in set plays.

CapnCrump said:
The way I see it is if you're whiff punishing you should know what it is they whiffed and what move to use. bA is distinct enough and the recovery is slow enough, that anyone should be able to realize what was whiffed before they take action.
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Sorry I have to disagree with this.

bA is distinct enough yes, but as soon as you know it's bA, Cervy will be able to block your whiff punisher.

As my game is built upon whiff punishing, some moves can only be whiff punished when you see your opponent twitch. At high level play, no one is going to be whiffing for free. You don't have the luxury of looking at what move did he whiff and punishing it according because at high level, it's not about big moves anymore, you're punishing 2A or even single B whiffs. That's why moves like Cervy's 44B/44A+B rarely work in clutch situations. You're taking a risk so high some people don't even know it.

It should be in your strategy to take into account bA baiting when you fight Cervantes either by using Pyrrha's 4B/4A to whiff punish for example.
 
CapnCrump said:
bA is distinct enough and the recovery is slow enough, that anyone should be able to realize what was whiffed before they take action.
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The way I look at this is what do most competent people whiff punish with on reaction when they see a sword fail to hit them? As Ezio I think 66BB, or in other words a mid, for my mid range whiff punish. I personally attest to wanting to buffer my whiff punish ASAP so I don't end up getting blocked and die forever, so bA can potentially throw a wrench in this thought process and force hesitation during a whiff situation which can cost you the game, not a tool to base entire games around mind you but something I can personally see getting a fair deal of mileage. I typically think Cervy 3B, Raph 236B, Pat 66B, Pyr stab, and others, all mids, potentially falling prey to this tactic. Because Pyrrhas don't typically think and whiff punish with 4A of all things during an actual fighting situation, they wanna stab.

The Shens and Doc have more or less said what I'm saying here, this is just my outsider, Ezio scrub opinion.


I personally now view Cerv V Pyrrha as a very dangerous game that can cost either character a ton of health in a game. Cervy seems to carry significantly more risk in certain situations like a post 1K hit but even then he has the tools to make the right read and kill her momentum, same with her. Pyrrha has them frames and speed, Cervy has damage and a magic teleport by pressing 4.
 
Just try to use bA in matchups where you know that their whiff punisher of choice is a midranged mid, you will see it works very well since people whiff punish immediately they see you doing a move from a weird range.

As ShenChan said the moment you realize its bA whiffed its usually too late and they already did the 3B input etc or if you want to confirm the whiff and punish with 4A its usually too late due to its short recovery.

Also you should really use 3B as a whiff punisher. Tip Range launch is nuts good and also 80-90+ Damage if you have the execution down. At least if you are up close its better than iGDR imo.
 
docvizzo said:
Also you should really use 3B as a whiff punisher. Tip Range launch is nuts good and also 80-90+ Damage if you have the execution down. At least if you are up close its better than iGDR imo.
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I swear there's no guaranteed way to get 90+ on tip? B2 will usually miss and aB is the only option, which is like 80max iirc.
 
3B is the preferable whiff punish for cervantes, and you can always get a full combo.

Whiffing bA, however, is mostly a parlor trick. You'll catch people MAYBE a couple of times if they've never seen it before, but in my experience it loses its usefulness very, very quickly. Even if the Pyrrha in question doesn't 4A to punish directly, she can just let bA whiff and get in for free, which is all sorts of bad news.

Unless French Pyrrha play has improved significantly from the vids that made the rounds of Kira winning a tournament vs her, you guys really don't have a solid representation of how that matchup works. Yeah, the match is in Cervantes' favor if Pyrrha doesn't punish things and generally tries to turtle, but that's not especially important; you might as well say Viola is the worst character in the game based on a player never using the orb...
 
Hates said:
Yeah, the match is in Cervantes' favor if Pyrrha doesn't punish things and generally tries to turtle, but that's not especially important; you might as well say Viola is the worst character in the game based on a player never using the orb...
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I dont know why you guys cry about punishing.

If we dont count her CE then
-3B tip range is safe
-2A+B is safe
-33B is safe
- 66B is safe if not from super close range, misjudged range gives Cervy a free punishment
-1B+K Cancel into BT B+K is blockstunish on wakeup etc,
-4B BE is blockstun
-22K is safe, has an Auto Gi and evades a shitton of moves
-You have bK blockstun
-66A is safe antistep (AA punishment only)
- huge ranged 2A and blockstun 6A for spacing
-7A jumping on close range to avoid throws and have advantage (blockstun as well)
-bA we talked enough about

Throws etc....what more do you need to beat this character? Safe mid, sick throws, good lows...I dont even use more moves...you can use so much.

really dont get it.
 
docvizzo said:
I dont know why you guys cry about punishing.

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I'm talking about stuff I've actually seen in match videos: namely, the majority of -14 moves not being punished at all, which is ignorance or incompetence on the Pyrrha's part. If Pyrrha's on point, the risk/reward is overwhelmingly skewed in her favor. If not, it's not really a valid matchup comparison. Nobody's arguing against the fact that Cervantes is a really good character who can run over Pyrrhas who don't know the matchup or have bad reactions.
 
Hates said:
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Maybe you have some old vid in your mind where people just played badly etc...dont think Kira has played since a while.

The only -14 Move which needs to be used imo is 66B. And as i said 66B is only 236B-able from point blank. From midrange she will either whiff her punishment or it will get block.

The rest of his movelist are either safe or only AA-able. I do agree though once she has a CE it gets a bit different. I really dont understand where he needs to use anything unsafe in this matchup.

I actually dont even know why she should ever get a 236B apart from ducked throws or ducked 1AB, 2K in this matchup. But once you have her ducking i think its a good thing anyway.
 
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