Character specific strategies

Belial

Belial

King of Hundred Swords
About this thread (read first):
Here is collection of character specific and/or cool unobvious stuff. I will update it as I see fit based on your comments below. There are two categories a) Useful b) Fun. Those can be unconventional applications of Auto-Gi's , stances, char dependant glitches, character dependant moves, interesting punishment options etc.

I consider strategy useful if:
- It completely shuts down opposing characters set up/mix up
- It deals more damage than conventional counter.

I consider a strategy fun if:
- It shuts down opposing characters set up, but is easy to counter.
- It deals less damage than conventional counter.
- Fits "useful" description but is inconsistant.

I will only give out info I've already posted, seen in videos or PM'ed or read somewhere else and add a few my own notes. However as you share I will share more.



Amy:
Useful:
Her 66A is A+K'able on reaction. (Belial)

Astaroth
Useful:
His 44[A] can be 6B+K~MST 4B6_6B on reaction. (Belial)
His A+B can be k:B punished (except far range) (Belial)

Cassandra
Useful:
Her (4A)B can be B+K'ed on reaction. (Belial)
Her 236B is A+B6 punishable. (Genver)

Cervantes
Useful
His 4B+K_[B+K] is B+K'able on reaction (Genver)
Hilde

Ivy
Useful
Her 214B is punishable with 66BB (need strict buffer though) (Belial)

Kilik
Useful:
His B+K,6B (asura dance) can be 1B'ed inbetween. (Legend)

Fun: His B+K,6B (asura dance) can be 88B inbetween but not really reliable due to range and angle issues (Dullyanna)


Lizardman

Maxi
Useful:
His 66A second hit can be A+K'ed. (KS)

Fun:
His (4BB)K can be 1B'ed denying him mind games along with blockstun from K. slightly angle dependant. (Belial)

Mitsurugi
Useful:
his 2KB is punisable with A+B6 for 78 dmg. (Belial)

Fun:
66A+B_66A+B~G can be B+K'ed, denying him a mixup (Belial)

Nightmare:
Useful:
His 33B_33B~GS is 2KB punishable (KS)
His GS K_KK can be punished with 3B if you i-duck the second K. (KS)
His NSS b:A is punishable by k:B (Belial)
His GS B is ib:A punishable. It also beat all stance options (trades with GS A) (KS)
His 6B:B is punishable by k:B except far range (ex : start of the round) (Belial)
His (4K)K can be 6B+K MST 4_6B ducked and punished. (Belial)

Fun:
His NSS is weak to 1B unless he 236 GS A (KS)

Raphael
Useful:
His VE A second hit is A+K'able (Belial)
His 44B is B+K'able on reaction (Belial)

Rock
Seong Mi-Na

Setsuka
Useful
Her FC 3aB is A+B6 punishable (Belial)
Her 1B:B second hit can be evaded by 4B+K (RLC) (Belial)

Siegfried
Fun:
His 66KA can be A+K'ed (KS)
His 3B is AA punishable even if he enters SCH. (KS)

Sophitia
Useful
Her 236B/B+K,B are A+B6 punishable. (Genver)
Her 236236 AA is punishable by 66K (Belial)
Her 236 AA second hit can be jumped and then punished with a buffered A+B6 (Belial)

Fun
Her 236236 AA second hit can be jumped and punished with a buffered 3B. (Belial)

Taki
Useful:
Her hover can be 4~MST punished on reaction. This applies to exorcism as well. (Belial)

Talim
The Apprentice
Tira

Voldo (new stuff)
Useful:
His BS A+B is bugged versus 66A. Gi will happen, but move itself will wiff, leaving mitsu with aproximately 3~4 frames of advantage. (Belial)
His 66A+B can be punished with k:B (Belial)

Fun:
(3B)B can be B+K'ed (Belial)
His (66A+B),K can be 6B+K~MST 4B punished if you delay it past 66A+B second hit impact frame. It is useful but seems to be not very consistant. (Belial)
His 66A+B,K can be 44A,A juggled inbetween for back RO. Will not work with 66A+B. (Belial)

Xianghua

Yoshimitsu
Useful:
His 3AB is punishable with A+B6 for 78 dmg (Belial)
His DFG K and FC 3K are 4KB punishable. (Belial)

Fun:
his 9B+K,K can be 66 BT B+K inbetween. (Belial)
his 66A+B_66A+B~G can be B+K'ed, denying him a mixup. (Belial)
his 66B wiffs vs A+K if A+K is hit during start up of 66B, its not hard to reproduce if you know 66B is coming. (Belial)

Yun-seong
Useful:
His 6_6BB is countered with B+K. Slight delay of B+K required. (Genver)
His CR [A+B] is B+K'able on reaction. (Genver)

Zasalamel
 
Against NM, if he does 33B > GS. 2KB is guarantee, nothing from GS can beat it. Even if he does 33B without going to GS, 2KB is still guarantee. (This is the biggest advantage Mitsu have against NM)

Also 1A beat all move from NSS except NSS A+B. And 1B beat all move from NSS except NSS >GS A. This two move use in combination beat out NM stance game pretty badly. All his strong stance option will be gone.

After blocking NSS K, 3B is garentee. So if NM try you ring you out with NSS K, you can do block and do 3B>44AA to ring him out instead.

NSS bA on block can be punish with 66B,B

After blocking GS B, if you do an instant bA, you will beat out ALL his follow up option except crash hit with GS A. (It doesn't look possible, but I test it and it work)

When NM does GS K,K, is possible to duck first hit then get up then do 3B combo. (But this require lot of practice, I'm still working on it, if you find it hard to do in real fight, then just duck get up and do B,B)

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Anti NM's anti mitsu tactic...

- When Mitsu's in relic, GS A will beat out all of mitsu option except B+K transition and Relic Duck. (First hit of relic A is also a vertical attack that can be GI by GS A) But if knew he is going to GS A your relic, you can B+K to evade GS A, then do Mist 6B, relic A, Mist 6B,B combo for major punishment.

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Anit Kilik's anti mitsu tactic...

- Kilik's Asura dance will beat out Mitsu relic option except relic GI (So if you are in relic, don't move until he make a move first)
- Kilik's A+B will beat out all of Mitsu relic option except B+K, (B+K will evade the entire set of A+B for major punishment)
- After block Kilik 236K, if he does 2K, it is uninteruptable even by Mitsu's 2A... (yes mitsu is very slow when not in stances) so if you fight against a kilik player who abuse 236K>2K, then learn to jump then punish upon landing.
 
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  • #3
KS:
The most basic and troublesome transitions to NSS are 1K on hit (or your generic BB blocked) B+K , WS and NSS [A] , In some cases NM can just not go into NSS and punish 1A for quite some damage while able to block 1B. Like its pretty worthless if he uses NSS as an evade (ie after 1K) but pretty good if he cannot escape going into NSS (where, say, 1B would punish the move if he doesnt enter NSS). Could you specify the situations you recommend use of this mixup and why.

same question goes for GS B what if he just stops? can he still block bA?

What about 6B:B is it punishable?
 
Siegfried
Useful

All 22_88 B followups on guard obviously, can be interrupted with Mitu's 3B. With the exception of SH A+B.

Kilik
Useful

After guarding the 1st hit in Asura, Mitsu's 1B will interrupt.

There's my contribution.
 
Seigfried:

After blocking 3 pr 3B. A,A will beat ALL seigfried follow up
But if seig use WS instead, it cannot be punish.

66K,A > second hit can be A+K after blocking first hit (Very easy to do)

Maxi

66A,A > Second hit can be A+K after blocking first hit (very useful)
 
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  • #6
Legend: Have to test your finds. If 1B really interrups Asura this is a great find.

KS: Theres no 66AA in maxi command list, only 66A - mid, high. So this is indeed very useful as he cannot cancel 2nd atack.
AA is the same speed as 3A, maybe its better to use it against 3~SCH (can sieg 8_2B+K~SCH evade it? hmm, need to test this)
 
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first post corrected about Maxi (4BBK cant be A+K but 1B'ed instead), added a few tips, props to KS and Legend.
 
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KS according to TM frame data NM NSS b:A_bA is -18 and mits 66B is i19 so it shouldnt be possible to punish it same goes no NSS K which is -17~18 and mits 3B is i19
 
I will try NSS BA again because I didn't do that enough.

But 'm 100 certain NSS K can be 3B punish. You can try it yourself.
 
Belial said:
KS according to TM frame data NM NSS b:A_bA is -18 and mits 66B is i19 so it shouldnt be possible to punish it same goes no NSS K which is -17~18 and mits 3B is i19
Click to expand...


I double confirm the moves today, after blocking NM NSS K, 3B is Garentee. So either the frame data is wrong, or NSS K have some weird properties.

As for NSS BA on block, I can only be punish by B,B not 66B,B.. (My mistake)

After blocking GS B, iBA beat all option. (However, there is a chance that it will trade hit with GS A if you opponent use it immediately)

GS K,K, if you block first hit, you can duck second hit and then 3B. But this one is quite difficult, you probably need to practice a bit.
 
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thx for the feedback, added some to the first post. I messed up with data in previous post 3B is i18 so NSS K is probably punishable except at max range.
however I will not add conventional punishment (which anybody can figure out from frame data etc), except when its range dependant stuff like k:B punishment or max dmg like A+B[6]. Yet you've contributed some awesome stuff. I'll have to keep up with this somehow.
 
About Kilik: 88B is guaranteed after blocking the first hit of Asura (And avoids any other hits), except at point blank range. It's better than 1B if it hits, but the whiffing issue makes it iffy.
 
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  • #14
Nice. however I think thats next to impossible unless you anticipate asura real hard. i'll add up with the next update.
 
Cervantes 4B+K / 4[B+K] can be B+K'd on reaction.

Yun 6 / 6BB can be B+K'd (even out of CR stance)

Yun CR [A+B] can be B+K'd on reaction.

Sisters' 236B can be punished with A+B[6], 1A for 71 dmg.


i found more stuff, i'll be posting it later... when i'm not lazy :)
 
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added a bug that happens against yoshimitsu. if you hit A+K during early frames of Yoshi's 66B , A+K will go right through 66B animation. I stumbled across this trying to aGI my opponents 66A on reaction and accidentally hit this mistaking 66B startup for 66A. I payed no mind to this at first but then I was able to reproduce it consistantly so I think its worth mentioning. Its not really easy to reproduce so It's not a reliable tactic but good to know and a nice bonus.
 
before i forget, you can A+K in between Maxi's 66A for a JI and 40 dmg, all it takes is good reaction to see the first A.
 
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  • #20
Genver: it has already been posted but thx anyway. I'm still too used to ducking second A instead of aGI'ng it. its the hardest part. You can aGI raphs VE A same way.
 
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