Critics on Nightmare

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IkI

[08] Mercenary
HeyHey,

I want to add my point of view in how I see NM. I'm using Nightmare since 2~3 months and I think Namco fucked him up...a lot of moves unsafe,useless, bad lows and TOO MANY HIGH FFS !
Hopefully, he's the best RO in the game which makes him a good bastard.

But when I meet guys who know how to deal with NM, know when to CH, it's generally a defeat.
For me, the anti-NM game is simple. Just wait NM attacks and block or CH with low, you don't need to attack first because he's unsafe when he rushes.

About stances : They sux. They block the "stance launcher/starter" and you're done. They just need to do a low fast move to stop you, that's it.
When I see vids where opponents don't do anything after a 66K6 or a 33B/6 blocked, it makes me sick...66K6, what a joke..you can't "combo" it, CH or not.
NSS stances, same things. You enter in NSS stance, they don't need to worry about. They wait you finish your "dance", or low attack.
Oh I almost forgot WS A > A6. What's the point ? To be blocked at -17 with GS A instead of -22 with A ?

Stun combos : he has too few, and with bad dmg.
List of stun moves :
-CH NSS K (fast one but high and unsafe), 2[K]. Options guaranted after : 2A+B but you need to do it at the right moment cuz it can be avoid by a right recover, or 3B for guaranteed hit with low dmg..
-CH GS A. Options guaranteed after : 4KK~33B6.
That's all. Low dmg, no mixup possible..*eek*

Interrupts
6K would be great if there wasn't so many chars with middle/low moves set. Now in close range, it's 1K against mitsu, maxi, setsu & co... Best NM interrupter but you can't chain anything :|. Just interrupt.
Mid interrupt : No need. 11K or 3K are weird to execute. I often miss 11K and I lost some frames the time I push twice "1"..About 3K, I have the impression to keep pushing K and lost some frames also.

Joke's Moves :
1aK or 1[a]K : What's the point ? a is low, K is high, 1a is not fast at all. Low guard is enough. Oh, it can be used as a frame trap (dunno if it's the correct expression). Why it's not a middle move ?!

He has NO good low moves with or without stances. 1A, NSS B, 2A+B, 2A: They are too slow,unsafe whereas Siegfried...

But besides that, what is pissed me off the most is he's the only char with SO HIGH moves...
A, 6A, agA, 44A, 66A, 22A, 8A, 4A, GS A, K, 6K, 4KK, 44K, NSS K, GSS KK, NSS bA, aB, bA : screwed.

The bright side in all of this, is when you win against some descent player without RO, it's like if you won at Olympic games ! You can be proud of your victory ! :D

In the end, Im really disappointed by NM, compared to Siegried who is...godlike o_O. But I continue to play with him, I like him and when I use him, it's a no mercy fight, RO FTW~

So, what do you think guys ?

PS : I play online only because I don't have the choice..unfortunately.
 
hahahahaha you called 1aK a "joke" move

You've just reached the common impression most new players get when first trying nightmare, they focus on his faults and think he's totally inferior to Siegfried, when in reality NM and Sieg are probably on the exact same tier level.

makes me realize I need to go more in depth on his okizeme in my guide, since that's his true strength
 
How the hell are people blocking averything you do =0.

At the very least if they are being passive, go into FC to force them into a 50/50.

Either they eat the FC Grabtechs or they snack on a WR move.

Cancle a GS out into FC, Change GS B into NSS...Use 1[A]6 if they like to block/punish 1A. They like to do a quick low after every GS transition? Don't go into GS and retake the offensive when the whiff.

1k, good interupt, free FC mixup game afterward. 3K...don't hold down kick and it's fine. I'd also like to point out that while his list of stuns is horrible.....well...they don't matter in his game...I mean they're good, but they aren't making or breaking anyone games...and they also aren't shakable. And you missed 22_88AB

1aK is for jumpers...always has been that way. Especially in 3 with his 1[A}6 free ring out capability lol. WR A6 is any GS moves, also meaning a FC possibility, a GS B, NSS or not...

Good Low moves...1K....wait....there was more somewhere.....FC A...FC Throw...Yea...his low game isn't the best as far as I know, but it leads to FC mixups and some fun okizeme/techtraps.

What I think is, not to be offensive, you've fallen into a routine for every match which is very linear/predictable, and it's frustrating, and you're taking out your hate on your character. I do it too.

IMO, Seig's more predictable on most levels then NM.
 
1aK is a joke. What's the point to jump ? To avoid the 1A full charged for the soul gauge ? To not get in frame disadvantage after that ? So NM cant grab easily, or not ? Please explain the aim of jumping.

I do mix GS (66K6) with FC or WR move but..comon...66K6 is unsafe even on hit. A low attack and bye bye your stance.
They don't wait you finish your GS normally. Same thing for WS A,A6.
You can start with any stance you want, if the first hit is blocked, you are down. No matter mix you do.

1K yeah, good move but -5 on hit, you should block normally after or GI :o but you have to take your chance sometimes with WS . And it's generally a CH ! but on you :D

At least siegfried has a good low move sets with his stances, and middles moves ! that Nightmare needs IMO.
 
You understand nothing.

For example, good players will try to GI or jump nightmare's 1[A] at least sometimes. Why? 1[A] on block gives Nightmare an amazing mixup. 1[A]6 GS B is a frametrap on guard and nightmare can mix that up with 1[A] throw when in range.

If you continue to act like you know everything, do not expect any help finding answers to the problems you think you have found with Nightmare. With your current attitude you cannot hope to understand Nightmare's true abilities. Many of the things you have said are just completely wrong. All you have done is flout your own ignorance.


If you want to learn I suggest you ask questions to overcome difficulties, rather than assuming that these difficulties are insurmountable.
 
^read this, say if it helps.

I've read that 1aK is used to stop jumpers/GI from messing up your charged 1A. People would rather not get hit by the charged 1A since it puts them at disadvantage on block (something like +3/4 for NM?). NM can go into GS after for stuff like GS B. They are put in standing position after block so fast highs can mess GS B up but I think NM still has options in GS. That and you don't have to go into GS if you don't want to. To avoid this problem, jumping the 1A looks viable...

66K6 does get stopped by lows and stuff but what about 66K? Its like -13 on block so right after I think NM should be able to block lots of fast lows...I'm not sure, don't know how fast 2A generally is since NM's doesn't exist lol. If ppl wanna punish with ish like taki/sophie A,A then 66K6 is good. That and I think 66K on hit is neg. not 66K6 to GS stuff, anyone know?

1k is fast so your looking for CH, but if it is just a NH then why do you have to just either block or GI? You can step...and NM step is good. You can go into NSS against some ppl to dodge short ranged stuff. Not sure if getting hit in NSS is a CH or not, but forcing a whiff is fun since NSS A+B or NSS A -> NSS bA/ NSS K is nice.
 
All I know is that SilentWall's Nightmare is all man.

Besides that, NM is a perfectly decent character. Good whiff punishment, great frame traps, good punishment ability. He's a force at mid range, and his mix-ups are no joke; GS set-ups are a real bitch to deal with.

You want to bitch about a character, get on the Mina bandwagon. :/
 
Who would ever use GS KK outside of wakeup/combos, though?

Thx Tiamat.
I cannot tell you how many times ppl have attempted to smack my ass after 66K6 NH and me not knowing what to do afterward. Know I have an idea...as long as they don't block.
 
66K6 on normal hit into GS A should beat 2As because they won't TC fast enough iirc. still, GS KK is mid so it will beat even stuff that TCs super fast. If they start blocking you're back to doing 66K6 into a WS/FC mixup

I would advise you not to overuse this stuff, but it's there if you need it.
 
*cough* Steve H.

Steve H. is on a whole 'nother level, lol. Us normal NM players can't compare, haha

These days, I try not to complain/bitch/moan about NM much. I just suck it up and play. Same thing I used to do in Tekken with Raven (He and NM are so disgustingly similar). At least NM's not Mina, Rock, or Maxi. lololololol
 
nightmare rapes people on walls and it's pretty easy to pull off for the most part, thats why he doesn't have alot of stun combos
 
Nightmare also rapes people with tech traps, and has 44BB to pressure people into teching-- that's a mixup.

NM has a lot of highs, but they're solid (his throws are long ranged, agA is fast and is neutral on block, 66A is long ranged and is very good on block as well) and they give people an incentive to duck-- which opens them up to mids; that's a plus. 2A and other tech crouches only shut down the lame stance 'block trap' setups like 33B6 and 66K6. In other situations, NM still has ways to deal with tech crouch attacks.

66K6 is good 'cause it's a fast tech crouching mid. Yeah, it doesn't combo into anything on NH or CH (if there isn't a wall), but you still have GS A and GS KK to frame trap and you have GS B to apply Soul Gauge pressure once they start blocking. This is the reason why WR AA6 isn't a complete joke either. WR AA6 to GS B applies more Soul Gauge pressure if people insist on blocking, expecting to punish GS A or the second hit of WR AA. People will be hesitant to interrupt or GI GS B because you have GS A or finishing out the natural string.

Nightmare has mixups, they're just not conventional for the most part. GS is a mixup because you can apply block pressure or interrupt/counter GI/catch step, or you can go into FC to mixup with lows or WR mids.

My opinion on NM is that he is by no means a pushover, the person playing him just has to think harder and outside of the box. I'm actually of the opinion that there are things about him that are 'undiscovered' and that his play style has room to grow. I have my fair share of complaints with him, but a lot of people have nerfed movesets in this game (compared to SC2), so I look on the brightside and work to make NM better.
 
My opinion on NM is that he is by no means a pushover, the person playing him just has to think harder and outside of the box.

This is a good phrase to associate with nightmare because he really doesn't function like the other characters do. If you judge him by the same criteria you use to judge other characters he looks bad, but if you think outside the box, you discover his strengths lie in places which are not obvious.

For example, the reason most people think Sieg is better than Nightmare is because Sieg's strengths are more obvious than Nightmare's. They don't look deep enough to understand.
 
Yeah..I figured out Nightmare is not like the others, he's fking hard to play (that's why I continue to play with him). He's not the bully that seems to be. You need to change your chain to try! to hit the opponent much more than the others characters, and for that you take risks for a low reward generally. That makes me complain about him.

About WS A, If I do more than 2 in the whole match it is my opponent doesn't keep presure enough. And so, with few exectuions, it's hard to mix either WS A > A, either WS A > GS x because they won't need to think : "He will do GS or not? I attack or not?". Blocking is the key ! (Good for Soul Gauge damage but bah, match will be finished before :D)


When I hit the opponent with 66K6 mix up (GS or FC or WS), I feel lucky, seriously. The more appropriate term would be well-thinked, or brained because you made think at tour opponent you were going to do another move that your last attempt but in fact no, etc... A good bluff like Poker, 2nd or 3rd degrees.

Well, Im gonna give a try 1[a] or 1[a]K but without conviction.

I watched the vids posted on forum or youtube but I rarely see good anti-NM. This one http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=483 and this one http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=239.
On both, opponents know how to break stances. CH or waiting =D.
If you have vids with good anti-NM games, I take pls ;)

And yes, Seung-Mina is more screwed, I completly agree ! She was a beast in SC3, now...:(
 
I have so many things to say on Nightmare, lol.

I will say these things in short though, >.>;
Nightmare is the second best RO char in Sc4 ( Hilde being first. )
Nightmare has one of the best Oki's in the game.
Nightmare Tc's alot.
WS B is the fastest WS launcher in Sc4 ( I believe.. ) Plus it leads to good damage or RO from very far away, good punisher on some moves too.
1k,33b,11k,11b are awesome.
Nightmare is God at tech traps.
Nightmares grab range is pure awesomeness.
If you don't know Nightmare at all, you get an auto-win button.
B+K is really good for spacing.
Nightmares step is pure awesomness.
Nightmare rapes kilik.

This being said, I think Nightmare is definitely mid tier.

Now for the part everyone hates:

Nightmare is insanely punishable.
GS= Opponents 2a= sigh
NSS K= Opponents TC move, or duck= sigh
All 10000 of Nightmares awesome high attacks= Opponents TC move, or duck= sigh
Nightmare is slow as fuck, lol.
Nightmare has horrible matchups.
Nightmare can't RO without CH if you break A while infront of a person standing +G. 1a and 2{k] Gs kk isn't going to ring people out when playing serious..
Nightmare Has alot of pointless moves. 4b is seriously the worst move in the game. Is 2a is neg on hit. Shall i go further?
Nightmare can't CF for shit.

Those are some really bad traits, that being said, I'd say he is definitely bottom mid tier.

That is all >.>;.....
 
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