Dawn Haze & Twilight Haze

[Pernicious-Soul]

So I'm starting to play aPat and didn't see a thread dedicated to a couple of his most important aspects. This thread is intended to help new or even vets with this part of his gameplay. I'm hoping some more experienced players will post up tips, tricks, or anything useful to help someone incorporate these into their game.

Dawn Haze = 214 - TC, Allows instant access to FC attacks

Twilight Haze = 236 - TC, Allows instant access to 8wayrun attacks

Are there any shortcuts too access these? For instance can you input 214, 7896(3):aB for JFT or better to just do the standard 214(3):aB? Im actually already very efficient with JFT but always looking for a more simple solution to better execution.

Is it better to use 236 to access 8wayrun moves during combos? For instance 33b.


If anyone knows what frames 214 starts TC would be awesome thanks!

 

[Frayhua]

 

[noodalls]

214 TCs F7-17. (PStick)

 

[Pernicious-Soul]

Anyone else use wavedash to close distance? Since aPat really has no safe mid range step kill I use wavedash to close gaps and force a throw/2363b mixup. You can really cover space fast wave dashing and people tend to freeze up when they see it.

 

[Dragonfall]

You can do it after close knockdown to confuse your opponent on whether you want 33B, 66A, 11A, or neutral moves like throw, B+K. People see you wave dash in they usually assume 33B.

 

[Paragon049]

I don't wavedash anymore, since the mixup out of it isn't that good (Plus no access to 1B:B or 1AA), and you're basically telling people, "I am totally open to 2As and other fast attacks". Step in -> 1B:B, 1AA, throw, etc is a much better tactic.

 

[Pernicious-Soul]

You can do it after close knockdown to confuse your opponent on whether you want 33B, 66A, 11A, or neutral moves like throw, B+K. People see you wave dash in they usually assume 33B.

This why it makes wavedash into throw so good. Nobody ducks for fear of 2363b so you get free throw attempts and we all know how strong aPat throws are.


Paragon if you wavedash after knockdown you don't have to worry too much about 2a interrupting you. With 2353b hitting grounded it really forces them to stand and guard into throw mixups.

 

[Paragon049]

Paragon if you wavedash after knockdown you don't have to worry too much about 2a interrupting you. With 2353b hitting grounded it really forces them to stand and guard into throw mixups.

If people want to play dead or roll then you can just do 8A+BB to pick them up into JFT or 2A BE, lol. Something you can't do from a wavedash.

 

[Pernicious-Soul]

8a+b b and 2363b makes em stand and guard opening up your wavedash into 2363b/throw mixup.

 

[b4k4]

I don't wavedash anymore, since the mixup out of it isn't that good (Plus no access to 1B:B or 1AA), and you're basically telling people, "I am totally open to 2As and other fast attacks". Step in -> 1B:B, 1AA, throw, etc is a much better tactic.

I can't in good conscience recommend 1B:B as a mixup tool over 33B, largely because if they block the first hit, the second hit can easily be JG'd on reaction (play against Partisan if you don't believe this is an issue), or the first hit can be punished if you drop the JF. 1B:B is more of a tech trap tool than a straight mixup tool.

Is it better to use 236 to access 8wayrun moves during combos? For instance 33b.

In short: yes.

I.E. CH 11A, 2362BA is a combo, but CH 11A, 22_88BA takes too long to connect. This can be pretty useful for TCing under long range highs, with the added bonus of a potential RO/W! if you scoop them near a ring edge.

 

[Paragon049]

I can't in good conscience recommend 1B:B as a mixup tool over 33B, largely because if they block the first hit, the second hit can easily be JG'd on reaction (play against Partisan if you don't believe this is an issue), or the first hit can be punished if you drop the JF. 1B:B is more of a tech trap tool than a straight mixup tool.

I've yet to meet anyone who can JG 1B:B on reaction or consistently punish a dropped version with something more than AA. One of the people I play with often JGs tons of things on reaction, and still doesn't JG 1B:B.

Not to mention the risk/reward for attempting to JG 1B:B is almost universally in aPat's favor, since even if they do successfully JG it, aPat's only at -17 and if they miss the JG, they eat 90 damage.

 

[b4k4]

I've yet to meet anyone who can JG 1B:B on reaction or consistently punish a dropped version with something more than AA. One of the people I play with often JGs tons of things on reaction, and still doesn't JG 1B:B.

Not to mention the risk/reward for attempting to JG 1B:B is almost universally in aPat's favor, since even if they do successfully JG it, aPat's only at -17 and if they miss the JG, they eat 90 damage.

Alpha is at -18 after a JG'd 1B:B, which is enough for almost all of the cast to severely punish. The dropped version (i.e. just 1B on block) is also -18. If you're playing against players who can't punish -18 with more than an AA, you need to find better players. Another Alpha player could 1B:B you back as a punish, and then you're the one eating the 100+ dmg combo.

Saying "well, I mostly play bad players" isn't a good argument for saying a tactic is good. Again, I know local players who will JG 1B:B with over 95% accuracy, and then make optimal punishes.

As a general policy, it is a bad idea to excuse bad habits because nobody you play punishes them yet. That only sets you up for a severe trouncing when you run into someone who can.

Edit: I realize this comes across as a little harsh, which isn't really the point. I just want to make sure it's clear that excusing a bad tactic by saying that nobody you play exposes you for it doesn't make it a good tactic, it only makes it effective in the very specific context of your local metagame.

 

[Paragon049]

Alpha is at -18 after a JG'd 1B:B, which is enough for almost all of the cast to severely punish. The dropped version (i.e. just 1B on block) is also -18. If you're playing against players who can't punish -18 with more than an AA, you need to find better players. Another Alpha player could 1B:B you back as a punish, and then you're the one eating the 100+ dmg combo.

Saying "well, I mostly play bad players" isn't a good argument for saying a tactic is good. Again, I know local players who will JG 1B:B with over 95% accuracy, and then make optimal punishes.

As a general policy, it is a bad idea to excuse bad habits because nobody you play punishes them yet. That only sets you up for a severe trouncing when you run into someone who can.

Edit: I realize this comes across as a little harsh, which isn't really the point. I just want to make sure it's clear that excusing a bad tactic by saying that nobody you play exposes you for it doesn't make it a good tactic.

The wiki is wrong then, because it says aPat's at -17 after a JGed 1B:B. To punish a dropped 1B:B, you need to confirm that the second hit isn't coming, which costs valuable punishment frames, which is why most people opt for trying to punish with something that's safe even if blocked. I play with many of the good/great players on XBL fairly regularly, so I'm not basing this off of playing a bunch of terrible people.

Please stop with your condescending attitude of someone who thinks they know more than everyone else. The fact that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I must only be playing bad players is really insulting, not just to me, but to the people I play with as well. Just because you're a mod doesn't automatically make you some expert godlike player of the character's soul arena you mod.

 

[b4k4]

The wiki is wrong then, because it says aPat's at -17 after a JGed 1B:B. To punish a dropped 1B:B, you need to confirm that the second hit isn't coming, which costs valuable punishment frames, which is why most people opt for trying to punish with something that's safe even if blocked. I play with many of the good/great players on XBL fairly regularly, so I'm not basing this off of playing a bunch of terrible people.

Citing online play as an example doesn't do punishment issues justice - all "theory fighter" should assume offline play, and online is irrelevant (especially when discussing frame/punishment situations). I actually did make an error in my reading of 1B:B's punishability, however, and I'm not sure whether -17 or -18 is correct, but it would be punishable by 1B:B regardless, as that move is i17.

Please stop with your condescending attitude of someone who thinks they know more than everyone else. The fact that you immediately jump to the conclusion that I must only be playing bad players is really insulting, not just to me, but to the people I play with as well. Just because you're a mod doesn't automatically make you some expert godlike player of the character's soul arena you mod.

I wasn't trying to be condescending which is why I edited my initial post to make my caveat. I know I'm not an expert godlike player, but I do try to make sure that people are fully aware of the risks involved in the tactics they espouse.

 

[Paragon049]

Offline play doesn't change the fact that you still need to confirm a dropped 1B:B first, it just makes it slightly easier to (You also have to consider that people are going to drop less 1B:Bs offline). I'm not trying to champion 1B:B like it's some flawless gamewinning tool, but just because a couple people can deal with it, doesn't mean everyone can or that the move isn't worth using. If I ever ran into someone that could JG the second hit consistently on reaction, I'd simply stop using the move outside of techtraps, punishes, and whiff punishes.

 

[Dragonfall]

I've yet to meet anyone who can JG 1B:B on reaction

Most players I play against can. I used to spam that move before the patch and people wised up. Go to training mode and you can do it consistently in an hour.