Feel My Wrath: Mitsurugi Matchup Thread

My 2 cents

You can split it into basic, intermediate, and advanced like you said. For each section, along with the tips dished out, there could be a video accompanying it for visual reference purpose. People who dont like to read can also refer to the video in that case. But I am concerned that this may be a chore, lol. Still, for clarity, I would push for this, haha.

Also I was thinking - for start off, you could say stuff like what are the main moves of each character Mitsu has to watch out for - those that are commonly used by people - be it safe or unsafe, and then move on from there like in your post.

I am for the idea of a Strategy section that covers attack patterns. This ought to be included for each Character VS.
Yeah, if you want things to be neat and tidy as possible, separate threads are a possibility. But as you mentioned, we want the SC players to get the best info in the most clear way possible, so why not try that out?

Hmm...from my perspective, I'd start like this...

*Character*

=Brief Overview of Character (e.g. style)=

Mitsu Matchup - Basic Strategies
Mitsu Matchup - Advanced Strategies

I was thinking the attack patterns analysis could be mixed in to the above two, or be in separate category altogether.

For conclusion purpose, after you have done enough research on a character VS Mitsu, you can grade their "compability" - like say, if Asta is good for Mitsu, you can rate him a A or something, I dunno.
 
@ Belial: I actually like the sample text that you've produced as it's clear, insightful and relatively easy to digest. Not everyone is time rich these days, so I'm greatful for any tools that would accelerate my match up knowledge.
 
@Belial this is really good. Keep it up. I'm new to sc5 and you are keeping this Mitsu forum alive with great stuff.
 
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I found some stuff w Viola. If you use 6B+K and then immediately do a move, the frame data obviously change. So here's what I've come up so far:

1A : in conjuction w 6B+K is -5 on block

3B: +1 advantage on block and leaves you really close for a frame trap. The only way to escape this trap is to react to 6B+K and quickly step to the right. You can then punish with your 3B.
However it is really difficult, since if you’re even a few frames late, you’ll get hit (3B has insane trackng, like many Amy vertical moves(wtf). And Amy can still use other moves, like 3A to prevent you from stepping here.

1A+B : You only get 2A if this is used in conjuction with 6B+K

3A : You can escape this by using 1B or 6B9 right after blocking 3A. Anything else will be stuffed by returning orb and/or her atacks (occasionally BB may work, but most of the time its stuffed by the orb). If this happens, she gets free 3B. Should you step, almost every Amy move will track both sides here and she will be at a massive advantage doing, her AA will also punish step. She can also slightly delay 3A, so it no longer can be escaped, but then she wont get any free combos when orb counterhits you.

4B: When used after 6B+K this provides massive advantage (at least +9), where 3B cannot be escaped except by GI and JG of course.
 
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Nightmare NSS study.

This is sort of complicated, so I will try to go through a number of options in every situation.

3B on block

Best options (only lose to 1 stance option):

66BB
Loses to NSS K,
Punishes empty 3B.
May trade with NSS bA at close range.
4KB works the same, but trades with NSS bA at far range.

Delayed FC 1BB
Doesnt lose to anything if done correctly
Can consistantly beat all options but NSS bA with less strict timing.
Does not punish empty 3B.
Hint: The 3B] animation goes as such, NM, holds his sword in left hand, strikes, than takes the sword into right hand, then assembles the NSS stance.
The visual tip here is to wait, until NM's right hand is hidden behing his back, then hit FC 1BB. This will punish ALL options NM can do. However, timing is pretty strict if you want to punish both NSS bA and NSS K.

44B
Only lose to NSS A+B
Low damage vs NSS K (which is naturally #1 option if you use 66BB frequently)
Does not punish empty 3B.
Wiff against NSS bA (your 1B will trade with 6K, if you enter mst, throw will interrupt 6K, but MST B+K will not)

Good options (high risk/high reward / situational):

66B+K~A+B
With right timing punishes NSS K and NSS bA for 105 dmg
Hint: Wait for 66B+K animation to almost end, then A+B.
Cannot be stuffed by NSS A+B , b/c revenge triggers NM can then JG/GI the A+B but cannot step. (beware of CE)
NSS A will get absorbed, but next NSS K will CH.
GS options beat 66B+K A+B, notably, GS B - a lot of damage.

66B+K,KB
Does not lose to GS
Will lose to NSS A+B for big damage (69). Loses to NSS A (42)

Bad options (only good againt unknowing opponent or/and worse than above)

2A
Loses to NSS A (42).
Can be punished w slightly delayed NSS A+B (69)
Damage output not worth it overall.
However, if you do it and NSS K is wiffed you get 236B. If NSS bA is wiffed you get 236B hold.

FC 1BB
Loses to NSS K and NSS bA
Good if you dont want to keep to much stuff in mind. Use FC 1BB to pusnih empty 3B and everything else.
Use delayed FC 1BB when you think NSSK and NSS bA is coming.

WS A
Loses to NSS K
Low damage output

6B8
Loses to NSS bA
Loses to GS (massive damage)

Summary: It is best to mixup between first two options (66BB and FC ~ 1BB). When opponen gets too K/bA happy, use 66B+K,A+B for massive punishment.

WS B on block
Best config here is to mix up between 3 options:
3B - stuffs all options, except backdash
66BB will lose to quick atacks like bA and K
1A - will stuff all but NSS A+B
The reason you need exactly this 3 options, is b/c if you remove even single one of them, risk reward for other two will drop significantly and opponent can adjust. However, if you use this in even equal proportion, you will always win damage race by good amount.

NSS A on block:
Didnt do any deep testing, but
bA will only lose to NSS K (trade with NSS A, NM has advantage)
1A will lose to NSS A and NSS A+B.
Both options will punish backdash in NSS at mid range block
At far range block nothing will punish backdash. Most of both your and his options are out of range.
If NM does empty NSS A (doesnt go into NSS again) he can block and punish both moves heavily.
 
The note about delayed fc 1bb not working on empty 3b seems a bit misleading. You can plan to do delayed fc 1bb and react to no stance transition with a faster fc 1bb.

Another option against WS B is 66b+k a+b. You can do it with a timing that goes through bA a+b k and triggers revenge on a. Loses to b, delayed a+b and can be blocked after k though.
 
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Jaeger said:
1) The note about delayed fc 1bb not working on empty 3b seems a bit misleading. You can plan to do delayed fc 1bb and react to no stance transition with a faster fc 1bb.

2)Another option against WS B is 66b+k a+b. You can do it with a timing that goes through bA a+b k and triggers revenge on a. Loses to b, delayed a+b and can be blocked after k though.
Click to expand...
1)Gotta check it out.
It still hard to get FC 1BB timing consistantly AND they can delay K and bA so it will still beat it out. So I think you do need 66BB afterall.

2) 66A+B - pointless against WSB, already lots of better options there. It is always possilbe to time 66B+K,A+B against NSS, but best timing is this
punishes both NSS K and NSS bA
Revenges A+B
Revenges NSS A (but lose to consequent NSS K)
does not beat NSS B.
 
aPat

1. 44b+k seems to be safe on close block, 6b9 punishable on mid block, and safe (out of range) on tip block
2. fc 3b:b should be SSL, SSR and you get hit
 
Algol:

1. 623b is listed as 236b
2. 6kk duck 2nd hit crouch cancel 3b
3. 11b gives fc 1bb, from tip range it's safe (even fc 3b wiffs)
4. 8b+k quick step then 22a+b if he does k and 8wr a bit then 22a+b if he does b,b,...
5. ws k, k] you should SSL a partial charge will hit SSR but not SSL, you can step on hit as well
 
Aeon

1. 1a jg 236b] only works close, cc~3b/fc 1bb/66bb work from all ranges
2. 66b is listed twice
3. 33bk doesn't seem to exist (maybe supposed to be 66bk?)
4. 33b gives 6b9
5. SW a+b+k you can 9a+b on reaction (66a+b combos afterwards) crazy stuff can happen if he g cancels depending on range and timings, most of it in your favor
 
Asta

1. you can duck aa and JG ab on reaction and get 4kb for both
2. 1aa/1ab if you 9g the first hit you can SSL punish of choice either follow up (SSL 6b+k MST a+b)
3. 3b] is so bad you can even get SS 1ab free
4. 1k and 1ka both lose to fc 1bb (might be what you meant already)
5. 4k series cant seem to step it up close, from further out I get hit a lot unless I QSR
6. 66a it's pretty easy to react to him not doing the b and punish with 6b9
7. formatting is messed up on 66_33_99k
8. 66k* you can SSL/QSL and 236b]
9. at close range against CE you can SSL or 236 during the flash to avoid the grab
 
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Maxi complete. Huge amount of math behind this stuff, so I hope you appreciate

Jaeger said:
Algol:
2. 6kk duck 2nd hit crouch cancel 3b
Click to expand...
2. hard. not worth i think

Jaeger said:
Asta
Click to expand...
1. You must have a jedi reaction. I though mine was good)
3. If you step at a point he no longer can cancel the UB you dont get 1AB, sadly
5. It seems the 3rd hit on 4KK wiffs on any block but close. But further out is pretty easy to me, but I usually QSR. Ill fix that added JG option then
6. Once again, Idk how much use this is in actual game.
 
Cervy

1. bA on block gives b6 ch
2. 4kk SSR 3b seems to work at all block distances
3. 2b+k] quake jg 66bb
4. 9b+k you get 6b9
5. 22aa you get 6b9
 
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Post Patch Changes:

Tira:
GS 3B : 6B9 (was AA)
GS 22_88B : JG 236B hold (wasnt in the list so idk)
22_88A : IMR +12 (wasnt in the list so idk)

Aeon: seem unchanged. 3B except tip block can still be punished.

Algol:
can no longer SS-punish 6BBB after blocking 2nd hit

Astaroth: CE no longer escapable

Ivy: CE no longer escapable
66A hold no longer nets a free MST A+B, you can get B+K or KB though.

Leixia:
4A+B can now be QSL after 1st block, 3B is free here.
WS B can now be punished by 236B at all ranges (had to punish with b6 at far block)
6KK 236b work on all range, you can SS between hits and 236B hold (had to punish with 1B at far block and step wastn possible)

Maxi:
4BB no longer can be interrupted by 1B between hits
66B : 66B no longer beats LI B at all (before it beats all but delayed version of LI B / aGI) also is now punishable by 2A since leaves very close on guard.

Pyrrah:
236B: 3B (was 236B before)
CE : 66BB (was 236B) added JG 236B hold option

OPyrrah:
236B : 3B (was 236B before)
DNS B unchanged

Xiba:
6AK and 6BK can now be interrupted by 3A between hits (before you could only interrupt 6AK with 2A)
3B it is now possible to iFC 1B to beat both stance and K. (you had to guess before)
22AB now possible to punish with 236B, also works against stance shifts (before you had to 6B9)
66KB very easy to step now, any side.
RMB AK now easy to step between hits either side, last hit can be pusnished by 236B (BB before)
CE : 3B (even 66BB will work) (236B before)

Yoshi:
dont know how it was before, since it seems I missed out on his stance moves.
 
Whoa. Poor Xiba... PS. Belial, I really appreciate all your stuff. I'm learning Mitsu because of your data so I can apply to all other characters, lol.

Edit: for RO AK (hold) possibly better to 4B when the kick starts release animation. 38 instead of 34 dmg, and easier to do.

Edit2: Oh, this is a punish thread, not a 'response options' thread. Whoops.
 
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miaoux said:
Whoa. Poor Xiba... PS. Belial, I really appreciate all your stuff. I'm learning Mitsu because of your data so I can apply to all other characters, lol.

Edit: for RO AK (hold) possibly better to 4B when the kick starts release animation. 38 instead of 34 dmg, and easier to do.

Edit2: Oh, this is a punish thread, not a 'response options' thread. Whoops.
Click to expand...
You are right, thx for this find. I keep JG option, b/c for 4B you need to be quicker.

Also small fix (missed in yesterday update)
Maxi RC AB : 236B / JG 236B hold (before you couldnt punish on block and only 3B after JG)
 
Also, vs. Pyrrah.

66B* : JG 236B / QSR 3B
236AA* : 4B between hits / JG 236B hold / JG 2nd hit 2A between hits
In addition to these. You can QSdown the screen (depending if you're on 1p or 2p side) to step the 2nd hit of 66B* - it's like QS, hold down.
For 236AA* you can 8WR to your left to avoid the 2nd low hit + 3rd hit. Or for style, just 7G the low, and punish with whatever when the 3rd hit whiffs.
 
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Since re-compiling of threads and info etc I had to remove some old topics. Here is JG data I had in there
Mitsu vs Mitsu

Move JG'd / Punish
22B / 3B (63+)
2KB / 236B hold (76+)
66A+B / 3B (63+)
1AB / AA (26)
4B / 3B (63+)
MST A+B / 236B (42+)
4KB / 236B (42+)
66A / 3B (63+)
BB / AA (26)
AA / AA (26)
3B / 3B (63+)
MST B,B+K_B+K / 236B hold (76+)
B+K / 3B (63+)
bA / 236B hold (76+)
WS A / 6B9 (32)
WS B / BB (34)
FC 1B / 3B (63+)
44A / 3B (63+)
22_88A / 236B (42+)
A+B / 236B (42+)
44B / 3B (63+)
4A / BB (34)
6B / BB (34)
6B2_6B:2 / 236B (42+)
b6 / 3B (63+)
BT B+K / 3B (63+)
FMD B / 3B (63+)

For moves unlisted you dont get any extra damage or free hits. Didnt test the rest of BT moves b/c im lazy.

Non JG Punishment list
Move blocked/Punishment
3B / 236B (42+)
2KB / 3B+combo of choice (63+)
2KB (hit) / 236B (42+)
236B / 236B (42+)
66BB/ 66BB (60)
CE / 66BB (60)
bA / 66BB (60)
66_33_99BB / 66BB (59)
1A / 236B (42+)
kB / 236B (42+)
B+K / b6 (26)
MST KB / duck 2nd hit -> 236B hold (76+)
11BA / duck 2nd hit -> 236B (42+)
 
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