Hate Speech: Of Clean Hits, Designs, and Time Travel

  • Moderator
It’s time once again to fire up the Hate Speech Wayback Machine for another field trip back in time. Today we’ll be going back into the hazy, primordial era known as “oh, the last couple of weeks or so.” It was a simpler time. A better time, back when men were men, women were men, and all children were manly children.

Though records from this dark age are few and fragmented, some bits of its knowledge have been passed down to our modern age in the forms of myths, legends, and hushed whispers around our campfires. One such tale is that of the beast known as “Clean Hit,” and that is where our journey will begin.

The Fair and Balanced No-Spin Zone™

I’m on record as being opposed to the Clean Hit mechanic’s implementation, but my highly unscientific sampling of the conversations around here tells me that some people are having disproportionately negative reactions, so today I’ll be a bit of an apologist. No, I don’t like it right now, but I suspect it will ultimately become a minor gripe. More importantly, its implementation, however flawed one may think it, evinces certain positive and useful elements on which we might capitalize.

What follows will be a review of the mechanic as we’ve seen it thus far: what it does wrong, what it does right, and what we as thoughtful players can take away from these considerations to apply elsewhere and thereby gain an advantage over our opponents.

Clean Hit randomly awards bonus damage upon successfully landing one of a character’s signature moves. The most obvious objection here—and it’s a big one—is the word “random.” Certain random effects are tolerable, though hardly desirable, provided that match results are still determined by player skill. Awarding extra damage haphazardly has the real potential to affect the outcome of a match, and it’s likely that everyone who regularly plays in tournaments will eventually feel a string of Clean Hit Shenanigans (CHS, I’m coining it here!). The only reason I’m not completely up in arms about this is that the damage itself, while noticeable, doesn’t appear to be game-breakingly so. The proper attitude, then, is one of disappointment rather than fury.

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Though fury does have it's benefits...

Daishi’s stated rationale behind the mechanic (see: Bibulus’ interview) is twofold: it provides a “fair” mechanic for less hardcore players while simultaneously nudging players toward using the good stuff. Let’s examine them in turn, beginning with the issue of fairness. There’s a non-obvious distinction to be drawn between the words “fair” and “equal,” and negotiating this subtle definitional quirk poses something of a design challenge.

Fairness as we intuitively understand it can best be described in the words of unofficial Hate Speech mascot Ronald Reagan’s ideological arch-nemesis, Karl Marx, who wanted “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Fairness erases difference, equalizes results, and is utterly desirable in single-player games and Mario Kart.

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Notice how you never get stuff that shoots behind you when you’re in first place? Communism.

Equality, by contrast, is far simpler—it just demands that everyone be given the same opportunities, results be damned. It’s also a wonderful guiding philosophy for a competitive game. Interestingly, Clean Hit is an equal mechanic, not a fair one. It doesn’t award any special advantage to the less-skilled player, but instead simply provides a chance, at random, for either player to gain an even greater reward than they otherwise would have. In fact, since Clean Hit only applies to moves that actually land, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that more-skilled players will land more attacks than their less-skilled opponents, it’s no further feat to assume that Clean Hit will end up rewarding cagey veterans more than anyone else. In that sense, Clean Hit doesn’t really pass the sniff test as a gift to the casual fan. It’s just unnecessary randomness.

The good of Clean Hit—no, the brilliance of it—by contrast, is in Daishi’s second major reason. Providing a roadmap of sorts that will take players to the best moves for their character is an incredibly savvy design choice. Like it or not, we’re in an age in which games are expected to teach us how to play them. Think for a second. When was the last time you purchased a game with an instruction manual taking up more than a couple of pages? Manuals are growing smaller and smaller (and evaporating entirely in some cases) because, frankly, people aren’t reading them. Players jump in, press buttons, and rely on their intuition and past experiences to get them going. As such, taking an active hand in guiding these players toward a set of useful moves demonstrates real thoughtfulness on the part of Project Soul. We as members of this community shouldn’t want our games to be intimidatingly complex. If new players languish for months in hapless scrubdom, it’ll just turn them off.

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See! I told you DOA was more pro than stupid old SC!
Following the Breadcrumbs
Smart thinking on the designers’ part, even if the implementation is flawed in this instance, does more than simply tell us that Project Soul is being conscientious. It should also remind us of something I pointed out a couple of weeks ago (you didn’t think we were done with the Wayback Machine, did you?): games are intentionally designed environments, and elements of that design provide us with clues for how to play better. For a case in point, let’s switch gears a bit and look at a new mechanic about which I’m very excited: CE/BE.​
As we all know by now, BE properties are as varied as the moves to which they are attached. We have also seen, however, that CE attacks also come in distinct flavors which will ultimately have implications for both how they’re applied and how each character is played overall. Based on what we’ve seen so far, I’d divide CEs into three broad groups: grabs, conventional, and utility.​
Grabs are, well, grabs. They’re also ridiculously fast, from the look of it. Combined with the fact that they can’t be blocked or broken, this opens up a number of intriguing possibilities for application. First, they probably combo off of a lot of things you might not suspect. A super-fast grab CE could possibly change an innocuous counterhit BB from a mild setback into a first-class ticket to frown town. Second, these supers will likely punish some “safe” moves, which dramatically changes the tenor of a match once the player with that CE has a little meter. Finally, they may interrupt certain unpleasant traps or sticky situations. We’ll need to do plenty of experimenting.​
“Conventional” CEs are things like Maxi’s, Ezio’s, Pyrrha’s, etc. They hit fast and hard, and are likely best as punishers or in parts of combos. We’ve seen people having success with random CE as a defensive interrupt in the open field, but at least a couple of these CEs appear to be unsafe, so that will limit their usefulness in this regard.​
Nightmare’s counter-CE provides the perfect example of a “utility” move. Its special GI properties compensate for its poor speed and linearity, lending it to creative use within specific contexts. I’m deeply interested in finding out if other characters have similarly exotic CEs, but in the meantime I would think of Patroklos’ as also being at least partially a utility move because of its ring out properties.​
Beyond these wide ranging categories, CEs need to be evaluated in much the same fashion as we would any conventional move. How safe is it? What’s the damage? Can I combo into it? Does it provide strong wakeup options? A CE that isn’t necessarily huge damage may yet become an invaluable tool for a character if it allows players to create massively favorable situations when it hits. Conversely, a CE that appears good in a vacuum might not have as much of a place in a given character’s movelist. Take, for example, Nightmare. His overall design since SC3 has dictated that the best way to defeat him is to do as little as possible while he kills himself trying to open you up, and SC5 Nightmare still appears vulnerable to punishment, 2A interrupts, and the like. Given all that, there appears to be less incentive to attack him than certain other characters, thereby diminishing the usefulness of his counter CE outside of situations wherein an opponent’s guard is about to break. Does this make his CE bad? No, but it does tell us that Nightmare players should generally be basing their meter usage around BE moves unless they know their opponent has to start getting reckless.​
Just as the Clean Hit flash guides new players toward solid moves, the properties of a character’s CE will guide veterans toward advanced techniques of offense, defense, and overall meter expenditure. Remember, we’re dealing with a designed environment. Move properties weren’t given to Namco on stone tablets from an otherworldly source—they’re all created with specific intention. A little thought and experimentation on our parts will help reveal that intention, and it will certainly help us kick the crap out of the “lol 3B->CE so good!” crowd.​
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Urghhhhhh brain hurtsssss...
Wtf Hates, where is the article about CaS?!!?!?!?!?!
Homework:
Weigh in on Clean Hit, fairness, balance, etc. if you care to. I’d love to get a discussion going. While you’re at it, take a crack at doing what I did in the second part of this piece: break down a move and let it tell you how it should be used, then share. I’d particularly love to hear from those of you who got to spend some time playing SC5 at NEC. Give your impressions!​
 
@Heaton

Just to start, Tekken isn't really a fighter in which every character is standardized. Dunno if you were being sarcastic or not, but making that kind of broad generalization didn't help your argument. I don't wanna have to explain it either so I'll leave it at that.

Back to topic. When I first heard of the "clean hits" thing in SCV, I thought it'd be similar to a Tekken clean hit (ie. you get a clean hit when you connect at very close range with certain moves, which gives more damage and/or makes low sweeps trip up while they wouldn't at max range), but we already have stuff like that in SCIV (ie. Mitsu 2KB only trips close up).

The extra damage from the random clean hits seems minor so it don't bother me. But if the devs are really trying to steer noobs in the general direction a character was meant to be played, I don't think this'll do it, just because it's not obvious enough. I mean really? A little flash and a little extra damage? I honestly didn't even notice the clean hits on vids until people started pointing them out, and I certainly put enough time in the lab to not think myself an SC noob. Point is, the onliners will still flock to lag abuseable moves, they don't care what the "key moves" of a character are if Cass 1a connects way more often.

The offline noobs or casuals that are actually willing to learn will probably benefit more from mission modes focused directly on punishing on block/whiff correctly, or poking safely with proper spacing, and teach specific moves to use for those purposes. BD kinda took this in the right direction with the defensive Trials mode, but it needed to be more move and character specific. Doesn't matter now anyway, because how many people actually bought BD (lol)? Also, make the AI be more active in punishing your unsafe moves as you turn up the diff, instead of just freakin blocking every poke you throw at it nullifying any kind of mixup game. Again, BD was better at this than SCIV was.
 
Whatever your take on the clean hit mechanic, it demonstrates the 2 fundamentally different video game (or any game for that matter) philosophies.

1) Nothing random, I want a completely logical game where everything is a result of skill.

2) Let's roll the dice a little, throw in some randomness to keep things interesting and unpredictable.

These 2 mindsets represent 2 distinct styles of games. To be fair, not very many games actually live up to the first option's standard. Almost every game in existence has some element of chance. That being said, SC is NOT one of them, or rather, SHOULD not be one of them.

RPG's, card games, board games, etc, all benefit from randomness. They have their place in games. These types of games wouldn't even be fun if they weren't a little random.

I am a person who deeply respects the type of game that is 100% dependent on skill. You can't blame anything but yourself for losing, and your SKILL is the only reason you win. This is the reason why I play chess and SC.

Am I bothered by random clean hit mechanic? A bit. What this means is that a person can blame their defeat on a random clean hit mechanic, and instead of hating their opponent for it, they hate the game instead. This can be disastrous in a tournament where close-calls are a dime a dozen. On the other hand, if you win by a sliver of health and managed to get at least one clean hit in that last round, how can you honestly say you earned or deserve that victory?

To be clear, I'm not raging over this, just annoyed and confused. Will it affect outcomes in battles? Probably very little, but still something.

Up to this point, SC has had no randomness whatsoever, it IS one of the main reasons why I LOVE the game so much. Same reason why I love Chess.

Mostly, I don't understand/agree with the reasons for clean hit. The reasons that Daishi gave were in my opinion half-ass and illogical. He claims that it gives noobs incentive to use certain moves? As hates said, clean hit benefits veterans more than scrubs. Why do we need "incentives" to do certain moves? Why is it so difficult to figure out these things yourself? And one more point to add, people don't always play the same way, and if a move is really THAT good, most people would use it anyway.

Example: I happen to like Cass's 44B+K (a.k.a. Butt stomp). Most people say,"it's a terrible move, you scrub". I really don't care what people think, I have found a use for it, and I land it often enough that it's worth the risk of punishment. I don't need a random hit mechanic to tell me how useful 4BBA JF is, as anyone who uses CASS knows that all too well. Yes, I know Cass is gone from SCV, but I was just using her to make a point.

Let people play they way they want, and let them figure out what's "good" and what's not.
 
...That being said, SC is NOT one of them, or rather, SHOULD not be one of them.

I'm assuming you think SC shouldn't be one of them because it's a fighting game, which would mean all fighting games shouldn't have them. But as Idle has pointed out time and time again - random shit has been in fighting games since forever.

I am a person who deeply respects the type of game that is 100% dependent on skill. You can't blame anything but yourself for losing, and your SKILL is the only reason you win. This is the reason why I play chess and SC.

Just an aside - I fucking suck at speed chess. How the fuck do they expect you to make smart moves with that damn clock? Doesn't make any sense to me...

Am I bothered by random clean hit mechanic? A bit. What this means is that a person can blame their defeat on a random clean hit mechanic, and instead of hating their opponent for it, they hate the game instead. This can be disastrous in a tournament where close-calls are a dime a dozen. On the other hand, if you win by a sliver of health and managed to get at least one clean hit in that last round, how can you honestly say you earned or deserve that victory?

People will ALWAYS find something to blame your victory on other than their skill.
  • The audience was too loud.
  • The audience wasn't loud enough.
  • The TV was on mute.
  • I didn't have my music.
  • You don't play your character correctly.
  • You did something cheesy.
  • I DIDN'T TURN ON BEAST MODE
So the argument that "it's an excuse for not losing!" is bullshit - those already exist. If you lose, you lose. If you win, you win. If you feel bad about it, or your opponent is scuffed up, that's your own problem. Throw the match if you feel so badly about it.

To be clear, I'm not raging over this, just annoyed and confused. Will it affect outcomes in battles? Probably very little, but still something.

You make my point for me - if it's gonna affect something, it'll affect it very little. As opposed to shit like Tira, where accidentally putting her into GS could potentially hurt you a lot more than her being in JS.

Up to this point, SC has had no randomness whatsoever, it IS one of the main reasons why I LOVE the game so much. Same reason why I love Chess.

Dampierre and Tira, who both affect the game a lot more with their randomness.

Mostly, I don't understand/agree with the reasons for clean hit. The reasons that Daishi gave were in my opinion half-ass and illogical. He claims that it gives noobs incentive to use certain moves? As hates said, clean hit benefits veterans more than scrubs. Why do we need "incentives" to do certain moves? Why is it so difficult to figure out these things yourself? And one more point to add, people don't always play the same way, and if a move is really THAT good, most people would use it anyway.

Name one Siegfried player that doesn't use 3(B). Or a Sophitia player that doesn't use AS/TAS. This isn't for competitive players - this is for the new kids, so they don't have to wade through tons of shit just to try to understand the basics of a character. As I have said repeatedly, what a starting player discovers that "works" in private against friends, the AI, and online, is almost always NOT what works against tournament level players.

Example: I happen to like Cass's 44B+K (a.k.a. Butt stomp). Most people say,"it's a terrible move, you scrub". I really don't care what people think, I have found a use for it, and I land it often enough that it's worth the risk of punishment. I don't need a random hit mechanic to tell me how useful 4BBA JF is, as anyone who uses CASS knows that all too well. Yes, I know Cass is gone from SCV, but I was just using her to make a point.

Let people play they way they want, and let them figure out what's "good" and what's not.
I covered this earlier:
I don't understand why a lot of people seem to value the "Trial by Fire" method of learning Soul Calibur - that is, losing until you figure out what's right on your own. This is the kind of shit, however, that produces stuff like "lol Siegfried 44K is gud becuz heetan alwayz uses it and its so powerful omgz" because it encourages them to find out what works on their own. Being that so many new people these days (myself included) are coming from XBL or PSN, finding what works usually means finding some laggy, shady-ass shit, not what would work in an actual offline competitive match.

You prove this point pretty well, too - Cass 44B+K is really not that useful of a move, outside of maybe one or two setups. It's kind of like Siegfried 44K. But you contest - "I really don't care what people think, I have found a use for it." If you don't care what people think, then you will either:
  • Go to a tournament and get bodied for doing stupid shit, thus proving that "finding a use" means nothing outside of a competitive context
  • Not go to a tournament and be of no consequence to the community
All letting people figure stuff out on there own does is slow the progress of discovering deeper game mechanics, and isolates people who aren't "in" the scene or understand the mechanics of the game itself. It's a selfish mindset - stop permeating this shit and trying to kill your own game.
 
Can somebody explain to me why having SC5 be 100% skill based would be a bad thing?

That's not the issue at all here, and you know it. No one has ever said it would be a bad thing - the argument is that 95% skill based isn't a bad thing at all, and that SC has never really been 100% skill.
 
Ok, so NFK was pointing out that maybe I was kinda harsh. So let me explain myself. This dumbass using Cass 44B+K as an example has no real concept of risk vs reward. He uses it in situations where it lands, but you could also land other moves that kill people much more effectively. In an effort to put your ass on the right track, the designers have made the game without silly nonsense like that. If you ever win a tournament match, you should thank them for stopping you from killing yourself.

As far as I'm concerned if you want to beat your head against a wall, you can. If you want to use moves that don't work, you can do that too. If you want to get rewarded for acting like a retard, I'm going to tell you to rethink your view on things... and when you bring that tired ass argument back, I'm going to tell you to go fuck yourself. As I just did.

Do you really try to play chess your own way against people that know how to play? Have you ever seen how hard you lose when you push pieces around how you want to instead of running an intelligent gambit? You should go find a chess club somewhere and play. It's going to be a worse beating then any fighting game tournament experience.

Maybe you should keep on defending how you want to lose or maybe I'm just an asshole... Have fun deciding for yourself.
 
Since when were fighting games 100% skill based? Hell, a better question....What is skill in a fighting game? If you asked me to make a fighting game that was 100% skill, I would make every situation reaction based...and bitch slap 90% of the FG community.
 
Can somebody explain to me why having SC5 be 100% skill based would be a bad thing?
How would anyone continue to call Woahhzz the best in the world and cite his tournament wins as proof? Taking this away destroys hopes and dreams. And nobody likes absolutes. (That’s what science is for.) Just give them some David Blaine and Criss Angel. They’ll be happy.
 
I remember having this conversation on the subject of "randomness" with my fellow old school SC players.

So basically it's what you guys having been arguing that all fighting games have some randomness, but this is as far as we can say for fighting games in general am I correct?

What about certain fighting games? Would you say some fighting games are more random than others? Wouldn't that be the case for say Smash Bros Brawl (if you consider it a fighting game) being more random than most fighters because their characters randomly trip?
 
Why can't more players have this mentality when being subjected to new mechanics in a game. T______T

Yes, there are some things that raise an eyebrow, but till we explore them properly in practice we can't judge their weight. Random sucks, but it might be negligible in the end so I agree with the OP. I still would've devised a better mechanic to achieve the pros of this, but until I see it in action I'm not gonna flail and moan.

Can't wait till the game releases and we can have testable arguments instead of people flipping out on theory.
 
I remember having this conversation on the subject of "randomness" with my fellow old school SC players.

So basically it's what you guys having been arguing that all fighting games have some randomness, but this is as far as we can say for fighting games in general am I correct?

What about certain fighting games? Would you say some fighting games are more random than others? Wouldn't that be the case for say Smash Bros Brawl (if you consider it a fighting game) being more random than most fighters because their characters randomly trip?
I think tripping is largely detested in all circles. It's one thing when debating random results off a successful hit...and another when there's a random punish with the only condition being moving on the ground. Tripping was a mistake, a very bad one. I don't think you can really count it as it offers nothing to gameplay (beyond avoiding the ground like it's lava), it's just a random 'Fuck you!'
 
Can't wait till the game releases and we can have testable arguments instead of people flipping out on theory.
What theory? Everyone who played the demo at NEC already agreed it's game breaking.

Just kidding. Anyway, you never responded to my wall post. Meanie.
 
O.o! Oh forgot! Sorry took a break after all the drama in the forums got to me. I'll get back to it.

But yeah, I'm expecting a lot of "told you so"s to be handed out when we get the game for a month. A lot of the complaining about mechanics was derived from heavy speculation when ever we were given some info before the devs had a finished mechanics to present, much less have someone test and confirm. What we've been seeing is a lot of:

  1. New mechanic introduce
  2. Section of the community flips out and says it's stupid and give reasons
  3. Someone plays it and confirms it's none issue
  4. People stop without acknowledging they were wrong
  5. repeat

...facepalm! Not to say valid concerns haven't been said, just over reactions and assumed final product and usage have been rampant in discussions. Just glad someone like Hates at the forefront is being a voice of logic.
 
Can somebody explain to me why having SC5 be 100% skill based would be a bad thing?

Because you already know this is a disingenuous loaded question.

Usual Holier-than-Thou nonsense

Hey remember that jG outrage thread? It was cited by Utoh san at NEC as one of the reasons for the change in the mechanic to a riskier version, and helped with ironing out issues related to it, like accidental jG and refining the window.

So anyways, you ready to pony up my money yet?
 
Ok, so NFK was pointing out that maybe I was kinda harsh. So let me explain myself. This dumbass using Cass 44B+K as an example has no real concept of risk vs reward. He uses it in situations where it lands, but you could also land other moves that kill people much more effectively. In an effort to put your ass on the right track, the designers have made the game without silly nonsense like that. If you ever win a tournament match, you should thank them for stopping you from killing yourself.

As far as I'm concerned if you want to beat your head against a wall, you can. If you want to use moves that don't work, you can do that too. If you want to get rewarded for acting like a retard, I'm going to tell you to rethink your view on things... and when you bring that tired ass argument back, I'm going to tell you to go fuck yourself. As I just did.

Do you really try to play chess your own way against people that know how to play? Have you ever seen how hard you lose when you push pieces around how you want to instead of running an intelligent gambit? You should go find a chess club somewhere and play. It's going to be a worse beating then any fighting game tournament experience.

Maybe you should keep on defending how you want to lose or maybe I'm just an asshole... Have fun deciding for yourself.

To answer your question, yes you are an asshole.

I don't know where all that hostility is coming from, really. You must really hate me.

And I suppose the fact that 44B+K jumps over lows, has no value? Or the fact that the damage is high? Or maybe the fact that it has some tracking also means nothing to you?

And about the chess thing, if you ever studied grandmasters, they can at times play identically in the OPENING sequences, like Sicilian defense, or Queen's gambit, etc. But no 2 games are identical, and no 2 grandmasters have identical styles. Bobby Fischer was known for having a very aggressive style, whereas Karpov was a more defensive, positional player.

I'm not going to attempt to make an argument for SC, but at least in the world of chess, even at the highest level people play differently. Based on what I've seen, SC tourney players don't play identically either.

I'm not going to stoop to your level by lashing back out with insults like you did. I think it would have been more polite if you just said something like, "I disagree, and I think this (enter thought here)".

It doesn't matter if your right, try to have a little class. Insulting people is NOT a good way to convince people. Just sayin'

If you had some decency, I might actually listen to you.
 

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