How to be jolly in Jolly

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
As suggested by many in the other thread, I thought it'd be a good idea to have a separate thread dedicated to finding Jolly's strengths and how to fight in Jolly.It'll be a good place to dedicate arguments on JS without cluttering up other threads. It'll also make n00bs like me find information on Jolly easier since we are now going to spend more time in JS without the easy way out. but if the mods think this belongs else where, please move it... it would be nice if we can compile a detailed list of JS moves with strengths and weaknesses, but the main idea is to use this as a way to understand JS more and to be able to use JS more efficiently.

where is the strength in JS? what are some good strategies we can employ in JS? what are the tools and good set-ups? how can we make JS work even better?

let's use our combined intelligence to make JS seem over powered!!!

EDIT: i'd placed some of my original post in spoiler to save space and move the compiled list out of spoiler.
i'll try to kick start with my n00bly ideas.

1) 22B:
i think most people know this. but 22B is a move that can give you space. i know that i tend to forget this move except to tag it after 1K (which is escapable by teching to the side, but most opponents don't know this). am i wrong? are there any other uses for this move? what can you do after you have your space?

2) 6B:
i call this move a "counter poke". it doesn't do enough damage for a punish, but it can chip away their damage quite quickly if they are not careful. also, it has decent range, which can hit many opponents with larger push-back attacks. it also serves the purpose of annoying the opponent. am i using this move wrong? are there better ways of using it?

3) 66AA:
one of the best move in JS. mid horizontal with very good range and TC highs. but need to be careful when using this move because it's very unsafe. are there other uses for this move except as side step killer? it can be used to close the distance but due to it's lack of safety, it should be used carefully.

4) 4B:
do people actually use this move? i find this move quite interesting. it's like an altered version of Leixia's 44B and other similar moves (mitsu has one too). there has to some good (and different) way to take advantage of the fact that back step and hit frame occurs almost at the same time, instead of back step then jump forward to attack. i have tried to incorporate this move but i don't fight a lot of offline battles, and it doesn't really work on CPU or online....

5) WR BK:
firstly it's a type of opponent match up knowledge litmus test. if they fail, Tira can get away with a lot of other stuff.
secondly, make people fear the K in WR BK. i find that even if the B was blocked, the K can still interrupt many moves. mix it up with moves like WR K or just not use the K. furthermore, make they fear whiffed WR B. for most moves that require moving closer to hit after a whiffed WR B, the following K would hit first.
is this a good way to use WR BK? are there any potential pitfalls when using it this way? are there better ways to use it?

6) WR A:
a horizontal with surprising range. unfortunately you have to TC to use it. i often wondered if there are better ways to use this move. anyone with any suggestions??

7) not about move. i want to ask about fighting style:
what is a good style to fight as JS? Idlemind suggested a"sharp defense" (see spoiler)
Jolly rewards you more for playing sharp defense, and finding ways to maximize your meter gain for attempts to change. Cutting combos short for stance shift attempts, scoring whiff punish knockdowns for the same reasons, and making extensive use of your throw game, and making use of JG are the bread and butter of Jolly. I don't even look at it like a stance, I look at it like an entirely different character (thusly, an entirely different mindset of approach). Jolly is a stance of smart play and opportunism- asking for better tools that would raise your comfort level in Jolly would diminish that.
  • what are some good meter gain moves and strategy?
  • i have to disagree with the "cutting the combos short" idea. it maybe a good idea right at the very beginning because you have room for failed attempts. but after 20sec or so, once people start wearing Tira's health or guard gauge down, Tira has little room for errors. also the idea is to maximize JS, this type of thinking would just lead to "get to GS asap" and we think that's not consistent with Tira's character design intention. also, i think we need to ditch the "get to GS" mentality, at least until we become more proficient at JS. this is because this type of mentality can lead to us making the wrong decision to gamble mood swing when there are other better options that will give us more consistent results. furthermore, if you want to gamble change, it's probably best to avoid JS 66b BE at all cost. the damage to cost ratio is very poor.
  • lastly, how do we minimize the the impact of an attack-oriented-game-design has on a character that relies on defense?
but are there any other suggestions for fighting style?


Compiled list:

(sorry for the copy and paste... too lazy. if anyone is unhappy I'll re-write it.
XD)


People have mentions that Tira's WR moves are very useful even outside FC situations. So learning iWR is highly recommended.

66AA
One of the best moves in JS. mid horizontal with very good range and TC highs. but need to be careful when using this move because it's very unsafe.
It's good as a step killer, RO and whiff punish (Buffer 66AA while moving so that you're ready when opponent whiffs). It can also be used to close the distance but due to it's lack of safety, it should be used carefully.
Good move if used wisely.

22_88A
Step killer. Limited range but safe. Good advantage on hit.

7_8_9 A
Unsafe, but has decent range and counters many options.

WR A
A horizontal with surprising range. Unfortunately you have to TC to use it. Important to remember this move after FC against opponents thinking they are out of Tira's range as this move has a huge sweep that's longer than most moves you can do out of FC. The only move with comparable range is 6B.

1B
Decent range and speed for a low, and it's safe. A good forward and sometime back dash interrupt. Or use it to take off that last bit of health. Can be side-stepped.

3B
A slightly above average launcher. Only -12 when most 3B are -13 or -14. It doesn't do lead to damaging follow-ups like the GS version though.

4B
Whiffing it is suicide. Apart from that, the jury's still out on this one. It may have some potentials but nothing is certain at this point.
Its back-step cannot compare with Mitsu or Leixia's, but it's hit frame is faster. It's hit box is also small.
One suggestion is to use it to pressure opponents not forward dashing.
Another suggestion is to stop Siegfried's stance mixups. It avoids his quick knee, while hitting him out of stance.

6B
I call this move a "counter poke". it doesn't do enough damage for a punish, but it can chip away their damage quite quickly if they are not careful. Also, it has decent range, which can hit many opponents with larger push-back attacks. It also serves the purpose of annoying the opponent.
Another move to remember after FC due to the range.
Main weakness, linear and easily side-stepped.

11_77B
People may expect 22B so mix things up with 11B. On hit mix lows, mids and throws. A good option on wake up.

22B, -3 on block, +9 on hit
A move many people abuse. Tool for spacing. Decent guard damage. Just be careful don't let it become too predictable because it can be easily side-stepped.

Decent range, but can still be easily out-ranged by characters like Nightmare and Ivy esp after it's blocked.

Scenarios.
1) After 22B on block X character will:
Step:
- 66A, 6A
Any attack:
- JS CE
Fast verticals (BB, 3B):
- QS
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)
- JG
Low kick:
- 3K
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)
Fast/High horizontals (AA, 6A):
- 6K
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)
- JG
Block:
- Throw
- Low attack (236k BE is a very good option)

Mix up your attacks when 22B hits, otherwise create more space.

66B
Good combo starter, generally safe, with good range, decent guard damage and hits grounded. It's more difficult to use due to its slowness.
Note: at this point the opinion about 66b BE is split. one side believe that it is best to avoid 66b BE because it is more effective to save your gauge for CE and GI. the other side believe that by using the combo 66B, 66b BE for the chance to extend the combo through persona change, you can increase your instant damage output. both are valid and it really depends on your own play-style. The first view point is a more of a steady damage output. This is a more balanced approach. The second view point is a more luck-based, spike damage output.

WR BK
Different people have different uses. But the most important thing to remember is to use this wisely. It's unsafe and easily countered esp if the opponent knows Tira. Don't use this out of habit.


4K
One of the best moves Tira has. The self-damage is insignificant compared with it's strengths. It's i12 and completely safe. If you get the possible GS transition on hit, it's 75+ damage with combo follow up. If you can CH confirm, it's even better. It's +22 on CH if you get a transition. More importantly, it's enough to launch with 3B or 4BBB. It is also good in a combo. 3B, (delay or 66) 4K only works at close range. 66B, 4A, 4K deals similar damage to most combo started with 66B. 1K, 4K starts with a low and the other options deals similar damage.
Main weakness, very limited range and possible chance for headache. Don't use this if you are literately down to 1 health.

236k BE
One of the best moves Tira has (the only truly OP move pre-1.02). A fast low with amazing range and damage. The added chance to mood swing is a bonus. Don't use this move because you want to switch mood, use it because you need a fast, damaging low. Even the non-BE version is good with its long reach.

1K
A low that's faster than 1A, which can combo into 4K for chance of mood swing only at close range. At tip range, the enemy trips but don't get knock down.

6K -6 on block
This move is safe on block and has decent push back, TC and KNDs. Recommended when playing defensively.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.

44K
Even though it leaves you BT, it still has its uses.
Attacking after blocked 44K is not recommended. The disadvantage is very high and you put yourself at high risk of getting CH while BT. If your opponent wants a back grab, 2G -> (wait for whiff) -> WR B etc. will net more damage and is less risky. But if the distance is right, a following BT B+K B can have surprising result. But this is very risky, unless the opponent don't know Tira.

66K
Move is safe on block and leaves you at an advantage on hit.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.
Lack of tracking and range is this moves main weakness. Esp after the move is block, Tira will be in throw range. Option suggested after blocked 66K: A+B aGI, 4K interrupt.

22_88K
Step killer

WR K
A good poke has decent speed and has TC and TJ property. It can also W! or RO.
Main weakness, linear and short range.

6A+B
UB. Very good horizontal tracking with decent range.

4B+K B
Slightly slow. Can combo into 236b BE or 66B_BE. Like many of JS moves the second hit carries extra properties on CH.





UD is not recommended out side combos, it is really unsafe, but a few people pointed out that using something unexpected might just catch people off guard because most people are not familiar with Tira.

UDA
Can cause mood swing. The switch chance is much higher starting from 7_8_9 B+K (40%~50%) than starting from WRBK (15%~25%) [thank you Ukujiku for The List of mood change data]. Good as a follow up from WRBK, very risky from 8B+K.

UDB
The only GB in JS. Also the only safe move off UB on block.

UDK
Have combo followups.
 

Wid0maker

[10] Knight
It's no secret that Jolly is the focal point of peoples' complaints about Tira. I think that it's a good idea dedicating a thread to her happy side. You have some interesting observations. I'm about to head to bed but I'll come up with some ideas and feedback soon. I'm all for helping to improve Tira's game in any way possible.
 

ZUZU

[10] Knight
22B, -3 on block, +9 on hit

Tool for spacing. Decent guard damage.

Scenario.
After 22B on block X character will:

Step:​
- 66A, 6A​
Fast verticals (BB, 3B):​
- QS​
-Back Step (depending on distance and character weapon)​
- JG​
Low kick:​
- 3K​
Fast/High horizontals (AA, 6A):​
- 6K​
- JG​
Block:​
- Throw​
- Low attack​

Mix up your attacks when 22B hits, otherwise create more space.

6K -6 on block
This move is safe on block and has decent push back. TC and KNDs. Recommended when playing defensively.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.

11B
People may expect 22B so mix things up with 11B. On hit mix lows, mids and throws.

Buff 66AA while moving so that you're ready when opponent whiffs

66K
Move is safe on block and leaves you at an advantage on hit.
Good timing for JG if opponent blocks.

44K
Even though it leaves you BT, it still has its uses.

I dont use WRBK on block. Opponents should be aware by now that low kicks and verticals can interrupt the K.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
snip
I dont use WRBK on block. Opponents should be aware by now that low kicks and verticals can interrupt the K.
yeah! a more professional input! thanks!
i agree, they should know... but sometime people just can't control themselves. like i said, litmus test and mind game. i suggest people try to use WR BK some more, in different situations. it can really catch people off.

aren't fast B's usually highs (after blocked 22B scenario)? so how about using TC moves like 66AA and 6K?

speaking of 66AA, really need to test whether it can be used like a nerfed version of phyrra's 236AA or 236K. maybe we can mimic how phyrra's 236AA_K is used but with a Tira twist.

oh and about 44K leaving Tira BT. i found people often get caught out by following 44K with BT B+K B. the TC animation for that move is... very deceptive.

Oh how I want to contribute to this badly
please do. any idea can be a good idea. any idea can also spark better ideas. if it's not, at least we know what not to do. and sometimes that's more important.
EDIT:
Right... misunderstood that. how embarrassing for me...
but for anyone reading this wonder if they are "pro" enough to get into this argument, please don't hesitate and chip in. sometimes a fresh idea is just what Tira needs, because currently no-one can confidently say they know how to use JS best. most people had been focusing on GS.
 

optymuss

[12] Conqueror
Hey guys. I cant type a large text but to make it easier:
go to my youtube account, optymist100, you will see a decent JS. I was doing BS in the earlier matches to see what my opponent knew.i hope it helps show you what to do and what not do.




Probably discuss JS tomorrow with ya'll.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
i'd been meaning to bring this up but kept forgetting. are JS 3B, 66AA and 66B, 66AA actual combos. because i'm fairly certain the second A can be escaped by forward air-controlled if the launch hit too close. the second A can also be escaped by left air-controlled in similar situations. this is esp obvious near walls where you are not close enough for W! but it still limits how far they flies back.
 

MntT77

[10] Knight
I use 1B quite a bit when in JS - it has good range and it's safe. Also, 22_88A can potentially be very good depending on who you're fighting - it's short range, but it kills step and leaves you at a huge frame advantage. It's -11 on block, so if your opponent doesn't have a i11 attack you're safe. 22_88K kills step pretty well too. A lot of Tira's tools in JS require your opponent to be discouraged from sidestepping, so you need to make good use of the step-killers she has.

22B is awesome - I use that way more than I should. :P 66B in and of itelf is quite underrated, I feel. Obviously you get a combo off it, but it's also safe, has overwhelming range and it hits grounded.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
... 66B in and of itelf is quite underrated, I feel. Obviously you get a combo off it, but it's also safe, has overwhelming range and it hits grounded.
66B not under-rated, 66B, 4A, 1B has very good damage. not sure about this, but i think it also has decent guard gauge damage. i just feel that it's slightly too slow for whiff/guard punish without guessing the whiff. but it is very good in other ares.
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
66B is good but slow, I find it hard to use because you can only really risk it if your opponent is freezing, and if he's freezing, he'll probably block it. Also the 4A combos are unreliable depending on opponent's character and range.

I can't use 4B well, it just seems like an invitation to get CH. It's too slow and the hitbox is too small. Maybe I just haven't found the right situations for it yet. Maybe after blocked 22B.

I wouldn't recommend attacking after blocked 44K. The disadvantage is very high and you put yourself at high risk of getting CH while BT. If your opponent wants a back grab, 2G, (wait for whiff) WR B etc. will net more damage and is less risky.

66A is also good for whiff punish and RO.

WR B is unsafe whether you do UD after or not. Best get out of the habit of doing this, as people will get used to punishing it.

Agreed 6B and WR A are good moves. It's very important because 2K is linear and FC A has short range.

3B, 11B and 6K are also good as mentioned by you folks. 3B being only -12 is important for some matchups (most 3B are -13 or -14). 66K also good though I wish it weren't so linear.

Two absolutely essential JS moves imo:

4K. This move is just amazing. Believe me. Forget about the self-damage. It's i12 and completely safe. And for those of you who want Clean Hit moves, this is a God-Tier clean hit move. You get GS transition on hit, it's 75+ damage. If can can CH confirm, it's even better. Pre-patch I just wasn't using this move enough. This is what makes Tira strong.

Jump A: I just don't use this anywhere near enough. It's unsafe, but counters so many options.

Also don't forget WR K. This has TC and TJ properties, can RO and wall splat, is pretty fast, and has good range. It's also safe because of pushback. Easily one of her best pokes. It complements her poking game at close range when used with 2K, FC 2A and WR A too.
 

Cynergy

[09] Warrior
Tools I use the most:

22_88B - I think I abuse this too much. The fact that this is only -3 on block catches a lot of other players off-guard, and can often be followed by 66A.A or other typically unsafe moves with tech-crouch properties to catch their step or counterattack. I've even had a lot of success using a raw JS CE right after 22_88B gets blocked, if the opponent is playing very offensive. It also has good range, so against short-ranged characters, you can backstep to bait out a whiff and catch them with JS 66B.

If the move hits, you have +9 advantage, but since most players turtle up after getting hit, I find the best move to follow up is 236k(BE).

Not as useful against characters that outrange Tira and can whiff punish her like Nightmare or Ivy. Although considering it's quick recovery, it's pretty difficult to whiff punish this move. It's pretty much the only move in Jolly that I miss when playing in Gloomy.

11_77B on wakeup - Gives you +4 on hit and puts you in range for either a throw mix-up or WR BK. Some opponents will wise up and realize they can stuff your mixup with a 2A interrupt, but if that's the case, you can switch it up to WR K or FC A.

4B - The only time I use this is to stuff Siegfried stance mixups. It avoids his quick knee, while hitting him out of stance. Are there any other good uses for it? The evasion kinda sucks otherwise.

I don't think I've ever used WR A, as I find WR BK and WR K to both be superior. WR K is pretty awesome. Big advantage on hit, i15, and TC/TJ properties.

I know a lot of people like JS 66K, and I can understand it's uses based on the frame data...but I just don't like a move that puts Tira right in throw range if blocked. I feel more comfortable in JS spacing the opponent out as much as possible so I rarely if ever use 66K. If blocked, I would think [A+B] aGI would be a pretty good option when up close.

Also, if you catch someone with WR BK, I usually use UD A since it has a chance to switch to Gloomy. I only use UD B when already in Gloomy, and UD K when going for the ring out.
 

Cynergy

[09] Warrior
4K. This move is just amazing. Believe me. Forget about the self-damage. It's i12 and completely safe. And for those of you who want Clean Hit moves, this is a God-Tier clean hit move. You get GS transition on hit, it's 75+ damage. If can can CH confirm, it's even better. Pre-patch I just wasn't using this move enough. This is what makes Tira strong.
I'm going to have to use this move more. I pretty much only use it as part of combos. Are you saying that it's guaranteed transition to GS on a CH?
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
I'm going to have to use this move more. I pretty much only use it as part of combos. Are you saying that it's guaranteed transition to GS on a CH?
No. But you get about +22 on CH if you get a transition. Important thing is, it's enough to launch with 3B or 4BBB.
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
How about JS 4B to pressure opponents into not doing forward dash moves or adding to your spacing game a bit? Granted it's a niche use, but it's something. I should really fool around with it more >.>

Just don't think about using it too much, whiffing it is suicide and just about any attack with a backwards movement(like Mitsu 4B) beats it brutally.



How about a use for A+B outside of combos?
 

MntT77

[10] Knight
Run up to your opponent and just do it.

Seriously, it's such a stupid idea that it's bound to work at least once and probably net you a change to GS. Not even joking.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
Wouldn't going for a throw or 4K be better though?
4K and throw don't have aGI, which can provide a bit more protection. tho 4K is fast enough to beat a lot of moves.


my philosophy on WR BK is: if they can't punish it, abuse it; if they can punish it, mix up with WR A (more distant) and WR K (closer). that being said, i know how easy WR BK can be countered, so always use it because you think it'll give you an advantage, don't use it because it's a habit. using WR BK out of habit is a very bad idea. good against scrubs and n00bs, disastrous against people who know Tira or people who learns from mistakes quickly.
 

MntT77

[10] Knight
Wouldn't going for a throw or 4K be better though?
Of course it would. In fact, only an idiot would suggest using A+B in a situation like that. Which is exactly why it's another option to bear in mind.

Think about it. If someone has the opportunity to use a move in a certain situation, but that move is highly likely to backfire, the opponent will probably assume that they'll never do it. So when they do do it, the opponent is caught off-guard, and it ends up being effective! Assuming that you've already discouraged them from stepping with some of Tira's (admittedly mostly risky) step-killers the following may happen:

a) They block it. You take a small amount of damage, but are otherwise safe from punishment (OK, Natsu can 2bA it, and Alpha can CE if he has enough meter, but you know what I mean...) Small chance of persona shift.

b) They mindlessly attack, and there's a decent chance you'll aGI it. In Jolly, this means you perform a stronger version of 4K with no health loss - small chance of persona shift.

c) The move hits - large chance of persona shift.

Needless to say, b) and c) are unlikely to happen more than once or twice on the same opponent.

On that front, if you manage to land 66B, have you ever considered using A+B afterwards? You sacrifice a lot of combo damage, of course, but there's at least a 70% chance of becoming Gloomy.
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
I occasionally(probably too often really) throw out "lol this guy is an idiot for falling for this worthless attack" tactics, but the odds of a reward from A+B really seem too much slimmer than the odds of being punished for it to *REALLY* justify using it. Same case for JS 66B :(

Something positive though? JS B+K lolol free bar.
 

optymuss

[12] Conqueror
.....might as well...


Aside from mood changes and combos. What is the most difficult in JS?

Is it zoning? Spacing? Making an offense outside of combos? Mind games? Dealing with close range characters?

Whats the main problem aside from getting to GS.

Simplify the problems and lets work on the main problem then work on the minor ones.