Nukleurfire
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
I would too, but that doesn't mean that that is in Rock's favour.
I would too, but that doesn't mean that that is in Rock's favour.
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away players?
- Thread starter Haeven
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #42
Haeven
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Hold on a moment there Nukleurfire :D.
Since we're trying to learn how to jf dash after blocking, Hildes would be silly to try and 1/2 our health with only pokes. Most of Hilde's pokes are -4 to -16ish on block. So, if I understand frame symbols correctly, Rock would usually have 4 to 16 ish frames to do a post-block teleport jf dash and either remain defensive or start attacking with a mixup. Either way, we should be able to close the gap between us and Hilde after blocking most types of pokes. If, we can manage to keep up the dashing, then she may be reduced to using her safest pokes and anticipating when we will dash forward. We'd be making her life a bit more difficult...if it ain't difficult enough already managing all those charge moves :D. (correctly me if I'm wrong; I'm not a Hilde expert)
It's not just Hilde. Using opponent's safest moves against a post-block dashing Rock is a sound strategy. But that may put opponent at more risk :D.
For example, consider the Astaroth vs. Rock vid in this thread. Rock used the Post block dash twice to gain a significant advantage. Then Astaroth had to drastically reduce the use of push-back moves. Astaroth player started to use guard crushes and unblockables more often in order to try and reduce Rock's opportunities to block. In this case, Astaroth player won because he was very skilled and probably not because Rock is a worse character.
Hold on a moment there Nukleurfire :D.
Since we're trying to learn how to jf dash after blocking, Hildes would be silly to try and 1/2 our health with only pokes. Most of Hilde's pokes are -4 to -16ish on block. So, if I understand frame symbols correctly, Rock would usually have 4 to 16 ish frames to do a post-block teleport jf dash and either remain defensive or start attacking with a mixup. Either way, we should be able to close the gap between us and Hilde after blocking most types of pokes. If, we can manage to keep up the dashing, then she may be reduced to using her safest pokes and anticipating when we will dash forward. We'd be making her life a bit more difficult...if it ain't difficult enough already managing all those charge moves :D. (correctly me if I'm wrong; I'm not a Hilde expert)
It's not just Hilde. Using opponent's safest moves against a post-block dashing Rock is a sound strategy. But that may put opponent at more risk :D.
For example, consider the Astaroth vs. Rock vid in this thread. Rock used the Post block dash twice to gain a significant advantage. Then Astaroth had to drastically reduce the use of push-back moves. Astaroth player started to use guard crushes and unblockables more often in order to try and reduce Rock's opportunities to block. In this case, Astaroth player won because he was very skilled and probably not because Rock is a worse character.
hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Are we playing the same game?!
Hilde's pokes are nothing compared to say Setsuka.
Her pokes have poor damage and range. Pretty darn average.
Are we playing the same game?!
Hilde's pokes are nothing compared to say Setsuka.
Her pokes have poor damage and range. Pretty darn average.
LAU
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Hilde's poke isn't anything compared to setsuka... who kinda sucks at poking when compared to yoshi... who kinda sucks compared to sophie...
and honestly... poking doesn't bother me that much
-LAU
Hilde's poke isn't anything compared to setsuka... who kinda sucks at poking when compared to yoshi... who kinda sucks compared to sophie...
and honestly... poking doesn't bother me that much
-LAU
- Thread starter
- #45
Haeven
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Other ways of getting closer is to use attacks that move rock forward. 4A+B, Rhino Rush (Bull Rush), 6K are some examples. However jf dashing after blocking is a good technique against players who become defensive after we block their string (and that's what players usually do).
Other ways of getting closer is to use attacks that move rock forward. 4A+B, Rhino Rush (Bull Rush), 6K are some examples. However jf dashing after blocking is a good technique against players who become defensive after we block their string (and that's what players usually do).
LAU
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Just wanna mention...
if you play this game as a 2D game meaning you're only going backwards and forwards...
you fail
so if you're getting killed by just pokes...
it probably means the following.
1) You don't know how to step
2) You don't know how to play according to frame data
3) You are not using throws enough
4) You are not using 6K enough.
I can tell by this single post that Nuklearfire's Rock is not that good.. and i even question his basic abilities.
imo... rock against poke is freaking awesome... he's nearly Mr. anti-poke
why?
Rock's throw is among S-tier throw range.... he probably got the best throw range or one of the best...
so how does this effects throws?
Throw = i17
6K = i17....
you block ANY poke moves... you'll MOST likely be within range... for a grab... nearly all the pokes in the game is in negative frames... .... it's possible they might beat you with an extremely fast high... however... that's why a good mix of 6K and throw = solution against continuous poking...
and honestly.. getting hit by 20 - 30 damage vs Rock putting them on the ground = they are at disadvantage
this is why poking doesn't bother me at all... all i need to do is.. block = free mixup for me!
think about it... 6K + throws really covers all options they have if you blocked their poke
Throw > GI (not JI.. but good for them if they get it), step, guard, attacks that are not 'super fast high... as in not i10-i11'
6K > step to one side, all attacks (pretty much... TC all the highs and everything else is too slow), crouching opponent (for those who want's to avoid throw)
everything that throw is weak against... 6K makes up for it.
the only thing that i can think of that beats both 6K/Throw mixup is.... if they play at range... and use back dash or evasive move...... but guess what.. that's no longer poking...
if anyone have a huge problem against poke with rock.... they REALLY need to start learning to to play the game properly.. OR... stop playing online calibur... it's not the same...
-LAU
Just wanna mention...
if you play this game as a 2D game meaning you're only going backwards and forwards...
you fail
so if you're getting killed by just pokes...
it probably means the following.
1) You don't know how to step
2) You don't know how to play according to frame data
3) You are not using throws enough
4) You are not using 6K enough.
I can tell by this single post that Nuklearfire's Rock is not that good.. and i even question his basic abilities.
imo... rock against poke is freaking awesome... he's nearly Mr. anti-poke
why?
Rock's throw is among S-tier throw range.... he probably got the best throw range or one of the best...
so how does this effects throws?
Throw = i17
6K = i17....
you block ANY poke moves... you'll MOST likely be within range... for a grab... nearly all the pokes in the game is in negative frames... .... it's possible they might beat you with an extremely fast high... however... that's why a good mix of 6K and throw = solution against continuous poking...
and honestly.. getting hit by 20 - 30 damage vs Rock putting them on the ground = they are at disadvantage
this is why poking doesn't bother me at all... all i need to do is.. block = free mixup for me!
think about it... 6K + throws really covers all options they have if you blocked their poke
Throw > GI (not JI.. but good for them if they get it), step, guard, attacks that are not 'super fast high... as in not i10-i11'
6K > step to one side, all attacks (pretty much... TC all the highs and everything else is too slow), crouching opponent (for those who want's to avoid throw)
everything that throw is weak against... 6K makes up for it.
the only thing that i can think of that beats both 6K/Throw mixup is.... if they play at range... and use back dash or evasive move...... but guess what.. that's no longer poking...
if anyone have a huge problem against poke with rock.... they REALLY need to start learning to to play the game properly.. OR... stop playing online calibur... it's not the same...
-LAU
D_Matt_Ma
[10] Knight
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Unless you're playing Sophie or Setsuka, poke isn't that big a problem. Only sophie has the super 236B that she can throw out of nowhere and Setsuka has 1AAA and 11_77A. Any other character doesn't really have the low/mid mix-ups to deal a big enoug threat.
Unless you're playing Sophie or Setsuka, poke isn't that big a problem. Only sophie has the super 236B that she can throw out of nowhere and Setsuka has 1AAA and 11_77A. Any other character doesn't really have the low/mid mix-ups to deal a big enoug threat.
LemonySnicket
[08] Mercenary
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
lol wtf? if dis is what it seems im going to eat up some ivy and kilik tonight. darn range players
lol wtf? if dis is what it seems im going to eat up some ivy and kilik tonight. darn range players
LAU
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
it's simple
as i mentioned before.. on block... they aren't left with much options...
on hit.. that's a completely different story... but then again.. if rock hits someone with 6K (normal) that ain't fun for them either.. it's the same.
sophie's 236B = block punish... depending on the player they might not even do this move outside of block punish...
and honestly... sophie throwing 236B out of nowhere is pretty much the same as her throwing BB out of now where...
one is i14.. one is i15... if they are 'throwing out of nowhere' BB is far more superior than 236B...
obviously both moves got it's differences of when 236B is far superior than BB in certain places.. but we're really just talking about post blocked poke now....
----------
setsuka's 11A is awesome if she guess right.. but i don't know about you guys.. i have pretty much see this 95%+ times... so if she guesses right.... it's pretty much equivilent of me guessing my 1A right against someone throwing... if she throws it out of nowhere... i'll block it.
1AAA... she needs to be like super close.. it's an awesome move.. but honestly i usually don't find this move too big of an issue unless my back is against ring or wall... one biggest thing about fighting agaisnt setsuka is you gotta try to keep her out... once she's nearly outside of her BB range.. she's got like nearly no mixups.
-LAU
it's simple
as i mentioned before.. on block... they aren't left with much options...
on hit.. that's a completely different story... but then again.. if rock hits someone with 6K (normal) that ain't fun for them either.. it's the same.
sophie's 236B = block punish... depending on the player they might not even do this move outside of block punish...
and honestly... sophie throwing 236B out of nowhere is pretty much the same as her throwing BB out of now where...
one is i14.. one is i15... if they are 'throwing out of nowhere' BB is far more superior than 236B...
obviously both moves got it's differences of when 236B is far superior than BB in certain places.. but we're really just talking about post blocked poke now....
----------
setsuka's 11A is awesome if she guess right.. but i don't know about you guys.. i have pretty much see this 95%+ times... so if she guesses right.... it's pretty much equivilent of me guessing my 1A right against someone throwing... if she throws it out of nowhere... i'll block it.
1AAA... she needs to be like super close.. it's an awesome move.. but honestly i usually don't find this move too big of an issue unless my back is against ring or wall... one biggest thing about fighting agaisnt setsuka is you gotta try to keep her out... once she's nearly outside of her BB range.. she's got like nearly no mixups.
-LAU
Nukleurfire
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
I guess my Rock isn't any good. Perhaps you are right, maybe I do need to review basics.
*shrugs* got any other tips? 6K/throw has been failing me with people simply ducking throws on reaction, but maybe I gotta mask the animation and my intent better.
I guess my Rock isn't any good. Perhaps you are right, maybe I do need to review basics.
*shrugs* got any other tips? 6K/throw has been failing me with people simply ducking throws on reaction, but maybe I gotta mask the animation and my intent better.
hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
They're not really ducking your throws on reaction, they're anticipating you and responding accordingly. More mind game ;) and be less predictable. Also remember there's always crouch throw, 2B+K vs habitual duckers and hesitators respectively.
To add to what Lau said about keeping Sets out. Because that is true, the match is hard cuz wants to be close to give nice fuzzy hugs and sit on her stomach. She punishes ducked throws and 2K very hard, and she punishes whiffed stuff hard as well. Her mixups aren't impressive as Lau correctly mentioned...but she gets opportunity.
They're not really ducking your throws on reaction, they're anticipating you and responding accordingly. More mind game ;) and be less predictable. Also remember there's always crouch throw, 2B+K vs habitual duckers and hesitators respectively.
To add to what Lau said about keeping Sets out. Because that is true, the match is hard cuz wants to be close to give nice fuzzy hugs and sit on her stomach. She punishes ducked throws and 2K very hard, and she punishes whiffed stuff hard as well. Her mixups aren't impressive as Lau correctly mentioned...but she gets opportunity.
D_Matt_Ma
[10] Knight
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
There is no SAFE mid Rock has. And throws aren't safe either. Just learn to accept that safety is not Rock's priority for mix-ups. His are wake-up. Learn to take the hits and don't let it affect you mentally.
There is no SAFE mid Rock has. And throws aren't safe either. Just learn to accept that safety is not Rock's priority for mix-ups. His are wake-up. Learn to take the hits and don't let it affect you mentally.
LAU
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
3K = i18... one frame slower than 6K.. but on block it's -10
3A = i20 ... -12 imo that's safe.
4K = i17 ... sure it's punishable but nobody punish this on block except noobs... due to the followup afterwards...
BR = i18 ... enough said.
66B = i21 safe
sure you can say these mids are 'slow' but we're talking about on block scenario here... rock is the slowest character to begin with.
as for throws... there are 'safe' throw attempts... I listed some of them before (i just didn't write 'safe' next to it)... this is for you to figure out why it's safe.
plus the word safe is really overated... here's a scenario
tira's 3B = i19, long range, -12 on block = safe. (to most characters anyways)
rock's 3B = i19, around the same range, -16 on block = not safe.
both 3B have pretty crappy track... if anything maybe rock's slightly better
now if you ask me which 3B is better... I say Rock's (you DON'T need to agree with me at all.. i'm fine with you not agreeing)..... sounds ridiculous right? well not really... on paper.. Tira's 3B is magnificent. -12 for a launcher that's a safe launcher and you can do massive damage on hit... however on block.. sure it's safe but got like practically no pushback. No pushback = free mixup... free mixup can lead to basically a 50+ damage mixup not to mention getting knocked down.
Rock's 3B however.. yes crap on frames but on tip it pushes out SOOO far out i wonder if sophitia 236B can hit me.. and even on block... characters like Asta might have 0 chance of throwing me after blocking... (not sure about point blank block) at this distance i probaby get a guaranteed punish.. but at 30 damage tops (unless i'm like sophie.. and i'm lucky with JF.. meaning deep hit +jf)... you may think they can use the frame advantage after their 'guaranteed' stuff.. but once again.. i'm still far range.. and after the guaranteed hits i am even at LESS frame disadvantage while keeping myself semi far range from before.
even if you do not agree with me regarding to Rock's 3B is better than Tira's... i think you can understand the 'safeness' of something is kinda overrated when you're facing a massive mixup... sometimes eatting some 'guaranteed' damage for being unsafe is kinda worth it.
if i'm hit by AA i might be at -4 frames of disadvantage.. at -4 frames far away i got many choices.. but at -12 frames close range i can't step, i can't really GI (unless they do a really slow move), I'm practically sitting there and praying to guess right... a wrong guess like that can lead to RO... however eatting 20-30 damage + no RO with small advantage might be ok with me.
-LAU
3K = i18... one frame slower than 6K.. but on block it's -10
3A = i20 ... -12 imo that's safe.
4K = i17 ... sure it's punishable but nobody punish this on block except noobs... due to the followup afterwards...
BR = i18 ... enough said.
66B = i21 safe
sure you can say these mids are 'slow' but we're talking about on block scenario here... rock is the slowest character to begin with.
as for throws... there are 'safe' throw attempts... I listed some of them before (i just didn't write 'safe' next to it)... this is for you to figure out why it's safe.
plus the word safe is really overated... here's a scenario
tira's 3B = i19, long range, -12 on block = safe. (to most characters anyways)
rock's 3B = i19, around the same range, -16 on block = not safe.
both 3B have pretty crappy track... if anything maybe rock's slightly better
now if you ask me which 3B is better... I say Rock's (you DON'T need to agree with me at all.. i'm fine with you not agreeing)..... sounds ridiculous right? well not really... on paper.. Tira's 3B is magnificent. -12 for a launcher that's a safe launcher and you can do massive damage on hit... however on block.. sure it's safe but got like practically no pushback. No pushback = free mixup... free mixup can lead to basically a 50+ damage mixup not to mention getting knocked down.
Rock's 3B however.. yes crap on frames but on tip it pushes out SOOO far out i wonder if sophitia 236B can hit me.. and even on block... characters like Asta might have 0 chance of throwing me after blocking... (not sure about point blank block) at this distance i probaby get a guaranteed punish.. but at 30 damage tops (unless i'm like sophie.. and i'm lucky with JF.. meaning deep hit +jf)... you may think they can use the frame advantage after their 'guaranteed' stuff.. but once again.. i'm still far range.. and after the guaranteed hits i am even at LESS frame disadvantage while keeping myself semi far range from before.
even if you do not agree with me regarding to Rock's 3B is better than Tira's... i think you can understand the 'safeness' of something is kinda overrated when you're facing a massive mixup... sometimes eatting some 'guaranteed' damage for being unsafe is kinda worth it.
if i'm hit by AA i might be at -4 frames of disadvantage.. at -4 frames far away i got many choices.. but at -12 frames close range i can't step, i can't really GI (unless they do a really slow move), I'm practically sitting there and praying to guess right... a wrong guess like that can lead to RO... however eatting 20-30 damage + no RO with small advantage might be ok with me.
-LAU
hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
+1.....for obvious reasons.
6B is safe too
2B+K is safe :)
Rock's mixups lie in hesitation and with throws. 2B+K is CRITICAL to all Rock players. If you don't know how to apply it, learn to.
+1.....for obvious reasons.
6B is safe too
2B+K is safe :)
Rock's mixups lie in hesitation and with throws. 2B+K is CRITICAL to all Rock players. If you don't know how to apply it, learn to.
LAU
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
2B+K/2A+K
are the two moves that Asta probably wish he had these moves
(however there's far too many moves that rock wish he had)
-LAU
2B+K/2A+K
are the two moves that Asta probably wish he had these moves
(however there's far too many moves that rock wish he had)
-LAU
- Thread starter
- #56
Haeven
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
don't forget that Rock is pretty fast on his feet (especially in the forward direction xD). Astaroth wishes he can move around quickly and be evasive but noooooooo he's made of boulders :D.
don't forget that Rock is pretty fast on his feet (especially in the forward direction xD). Astaroth wishes he can move around quickly and be evasive but noooooooo he's made of boulders :D.
D_Matt_Ma
[10] Knight
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Seriously, what do you people do after a blocked 2B+K. Anyone can just mash A/2A half the time and beat out whatever you do. I think 2B+K is overrated. Rock's fastest mid would be 17 frames. Meaning if you do any mid, most characters can beat it with a fast High. Just my opinion.
Seriously, what do you people do after a blocked 2B+K. Anyone can just mash A/2A half the time and beat out whatever you do. I think 2B+K is overrated. Rock's fastest mid would be 17 frames. Meaning if you do any mid, most characters can beat it with a fast High. Just my opinion.
LAU
[09] Warrior
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
post 2B+K....
6K has been working pretty well for me.. i don't remember me getting hit out of it.. considering 6K is TC....
but lets say i'm wrong and the TC frames isn't there...
4B/6A sure they are high... but they are gonna beat out pretty much everybody's AA...
and let say they don't (you're up against taki).... you still got 2A+K which is STILL a good option to do anytime due to the awesome TC frames and full step coverage (at least in this scenario)
as for 2A ... the standard 2A = i14.... FC A is faster.. but blocked 2B+K = standing...
2B+K = +4... i14 + 4 = i18... 6K = i17 = wins.
if they blocked your 2B+K....
the risk vs reward is soooo much on your side...
sure there are times when you'll guess wrong... this happens to EVERYBODY...
but the game goes like this....
The player with the better basics usually 'guesses' right more often... compared to a player with worse basics....
assuming you're playing a player at equal level meaning you guess right or wrong around the same number of times... then it comes down to who deals more damage during their 'guess right' situation.
LETS ASSSUME... (since i need to test) AA > Rock's 6K.. and 2A > Rock's 6AA but... Rock's 6K > 2A and Rock's 6AA > AA
everytime they guess right they get a tasty AA.. lets say that's 25 damage.... or... 2A that's around 15 damage
vs... me... i 25 damage + combo oppurtunity and wake up oppurtunity....
-_-;
do i need to go further?
-LAU
ps then there's always 2B+K doing decent gauge damage.
post 2B+K....
6K has been working pretty well for me.. i don't remember me getting hit out of it.. considering 6K is TC....
but lets say i'm wrong and the TC frames isn't there...
4B/6A sure they are high... but they are gonna beat out pretty much everybody's AA...
and let say they don't (you're up against taki).... you still got 2A+K which is STILL a good option to do anytime due to the awesome TC frames and full step coverage (at least in this scenario)
as for 2A ... the standard 2A = i14.... FC A is faster.. but blocked 2B+K = standing...
2B+K = +4... i14 + 4 = i18... 6K = i17 = wins.
if they blocked your 2B+K....
the risk vs reward is soooo much on your side...
sure there are times when you'll guess wrong... this happens to EVERYBODY...
but the game goes like this....
The player with the better basics usually 'guesses' right more often... compared to a player with worse basics....
assuming you're playing a player at equal level meaning you guess right or wrong around the same number of times... then it comes down to who deals more damage during their 'guess right' situation.
LETS ASSSUME... (since i need to test) AA > Rock's 6K.. and 2A > Rock's 6AA but... Rock's 6K > 2A and Rock's 6AA > AA
everytime they guess right they get a tasty AA.. lets say that's 25 damage.... or... 2A that's around 15 damage
vs... me... i 25 damage + combo oppurtunity and wake up oppurtunity....
-_-;
do i need to go further?
-LAU
ps then there's always 2B+K doing decent gauge damage.
LemonySnicket
[08] Mercenary
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
2B+K, 3A, 2B+G, ultimate volcano, 3B+G. nothing garunteed, (especially the unblockable being easily sidestepped but many a high lvl fall for it anyway) but hey i get most of a whole kill from that on a regular basis.
2B+K, 3A, 2B+G, ultimate volcano, 3B+G. nothing garunteed, (especially the unblockable being easily sidestepped but many a high lvl fall for it anyway) but hey i get most of a whole kill from that on a regular basis.
D_Matt_Ma
[10] Knight
jf dash--powerful tool against shove-away play
Well, what I like to do after 2B+K is... another 2B+K... so I get interrupted a lot.
Well, what I like to do after 2B+K is... another 2B+K... so I get interrupted a lot.