jG Implications for Maxi

[Uber1337]

I've been debating this a bit over in the SCV thread, and I thought I should try to get the attention of some other Maxi players. The developers seem like they are trying to listen opinions of the communities, so Maxi players need to speak up.

If you don't know what jG is, it is a new defense mechanic in SCV that allows players to avoid block stun by hitting guard within 2 frames of the attacks impact. There is no penalty for attempting this, assuming you don't hit guard too late and get hit.

In my opinion, jG is going to make Maxi completely unplayable at the top level, no matter how many buffs they give him. The whole concept of jG completely destroys Maxi's playstyle (or anyone that relies too much on stances for that matter. I'd think Siegfried should be a bit worried as well). We're pretty much not going to be able to do anything except poke, his stances are going to be risky as f%$#. After the game is out for a while, top players are going to start learning to option select every stance follow-up that Maxi does.

To better illustrate what i'm talking about:

Maxi has many moves that give him a lot of frame advantage going into stance.

On Block:
4B: Uninteruptable LO B.
RO A: Uninteruptable BL B
3B: Uninteruptable RO A
RC bB: Uninteruptable BL B
RO KA: Nearly uninteruptable LO B.
33BA: Uninterupable RC A vs half the cast
LI [ B ]: Uninteruptable BL B
RC B: Uninteruptable LO B

Top players are going to start trying to jG the uninteruptable option every time. If Maxi does the fast option, he has a chance of getting jGed (good players will learn to shoot for the early side of the window, so a failed jG will just be a block). If Maxi does any other option, the opponent is still just guarding. This will even be a problem when we hit.

ex. Maxi lands AA=> The opponent attempts to jG the RC A => Maxi Dies.

In past games with only GI, the opponent had to take a risk in order to beat out these options. Now there is no penalty. This sucks. I'm not really sure how this can even really be fixed without completely doing away with jG, and I don't think thats gonna happen.

Edit: One solution I came up with is if they just gave him a built in follow-up on his fastest move for each of his stances. RO is not going to be too much of a problem transitioning into because RO A (the fastest RO move) has the optional K afterwards that would beat any punishment attempt after jGing RO A. If they gave a similar follow-up option to BL B that would be cool. Something would have to be done with LO BK. They would be able to jG the LO B and still be able to check duck the K and punish. They might have to make the K mid, but then it couldn't have the frame advantage (it better still be safe though). RC A might be alright since it hits twice, as long as they made it so you couldn't just jG both hits.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

That´s why SCV Maxi needs strong stand alone moves like old tiger pounce(SCII).

String based characters always had certain disadvantages as soon as the opponent realized the weaknesses in their strings.

Nuff said.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

its 2 frames tho. Isnt that the same as a JI? In a sense that its the same as tryin to JI a UB. How many JI's do you see at a high level. Barley any that Ive seen.

Your right tho. This could put a real dampner in maxi's stance game. I have a feeling that Namco hasnt released enough info to really determine rather this is life threating to maxi or not. Im kinda scared for this whole JG thing against maxi myself, but I dont wanna jump to any conclusions just yet.

HRD

 

[Uber1337]

Um... SC1. That Maxi was a beast with his stances. So much block stun. SC4 Maxi could of been good if they gave him more speed and a little more safety.

@HRD

Look up the video of daigo parrying that chun li super at evo, and then tell me this can't be done. People don't just GI all the time so you don't get many jGIs. People do block all the time, and since theirs no penalties to blocking, we are going to see people get very good at this. Trust me. Its going to be a very reactive thing against maxi. You see a move, you jG at a certain time afterwards. Players have learned to jUkemi moves on reaction, what's the frame requirements on that?

 

[WARUI_NE]

yes JG will rip maxi a new one...
people dont GI all that stuff cause there is still risk involved with GI

 

[WARUI_NE]

I think just guard will Maxi more better.

I'd down vote this post if I could....
if you at think so at least back your opinion up...

its not like maxi can exactly take advantage of JG as far as we know his punishers are awful

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

I think just guard will Maxi more better.

this is a warning. If you cannot contribute anything of real value then please do not post in my soul arena. any further comments like this will be deleted. If you continue this trend, infractions might come into play. I will delete this post without any further action at this time.

At least have a reason why. Everyones opinion is always taken into account, but you gave no rebutle as to why you think so.

thanks
HRD

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

I was just sayin i wasn't triyn to say something. it came out of nowhere. Really to tell you the truth i don't like Maxi like that. You are right with his punishers though.

apparently you have trouble with direction. lemme refresh your memory

this is a warning. If you cannot contribute anything of real value then please do not post in my soul arena. any further comments like this will be deleted. If you continue this trend, infractions might come into play. I will delete this post without any further action at this time.

At least have a reason why. Everyones opinion is always taken into account, but you gave no rebutle as to why you think so.

thanks
HRD

your post will be deleted....again

HRD

 

[soakrates]

I'm not crazy about JG either, but all the hemming and hawing about it is getting really tiresome. Until we know more about the game or get our hands on it, there's nothing really useful that can be added to the discussion.

And Daigo's parry is a bad example. What a lot of people don't know is that in order to parry Chun Li's super, he had to input the parry BEFORE the super flash. In other words, he didn't react to it. He *gasp* guessed. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that people are just going to be able to JG on reaction to every string. And if they block, so what? At least if they give Maxi good frames again, having something blocked won't mean taking guaranteed damage almost all the time like it does in SC4. Also remember that in past games, most strings could be delayed.

Besides, if JG ends up ruining SC5 for y'all, you can always just do the smart thing and play VF5:FS instead. :D

 

[Aqua_Snake]

Ah hell Uber.

Now you got me all worried. :(

 

[hotnikkelz]

Hmm I was thinking the same thing when I heard about the mechanics of jG. Uber, does the jG stop an incoming followup? Like say if the jG RO A, but we do RO AK, would the K still come out? Or the jG LO B, but we did LO BK, would the K come out?
Either way any how I look at it, doesn't look good. jG is zero risk, which is the first bad thing. Second bad thing is that you can ACCIDENTALLY get it. Thirdly, even if the opponent were not to capitalise on successful jG, Maxi would've lost all momentum (something he relies on). Basically lockdown becomes very difficult if not impossible in this game.

 

[IdleMind]

You guys are about a month behind the panic train. Consider the following before panicking:

1) JG has been confirmed to have a 2 frame window. That is smaller than 3s Parry.

2) JG can't be done by mashing, mashed inputs won't be read.

3) Multiple G binds don't give you extra chances to JG.

4) When a move is JG, it doesn't stop the next hit in a string from coming out.

5) The JG advantage is move dependent; as in it's different for EVERY move, adjusted by the balance testers individually.

Source: Daishi's twitter

That last one in the big one, which should put you all at ease. Also, lets not forget the game speed is increased from SC4; so consider that many of your "mind's eye" impressions are merely SC4 with a "no risk" (sic) parry mechanic tacked onto it.

I was worried before too. Now? Not so much.

-Idle

 

[WuHT]

5) The JG advantage is move dependent; as in it's different for EVERY move, adjusted by the balance testers individually.

-Idle

a defensive tactic that gives variable relative frame advantage.. isn't that basically evading the move ?

TJing against maxi's 2A or against maxi's FC3A ?

--
I'm more sympathetic to quick-step's effect against Raphael.

Those guys truly have something to fear lol

 

[hotnikkelz]

You guys are about a month behind the panic train. Consider the following before panicking:

1) JG has been confirmed to have a 2 frame window. That is smaller than 3s Parry.

2) JG can't be done by mashing, mashed inputs won't be read.

3) Multiple G binds don't give you extra chances to JG.

4) When a move is JG, it doesn't stop the next hit in a string from coming out.

5) The JG advantage is move dependent; as in it's different for EVERY move, adjusted by the balance testers individually.

Source: Daishi's twitter

That last one in the big one, which should put you all at ease. Also, lets not forget the game speed is increased from SC4; so consider that many of your "mind's eye" impressions are merely SC4 with a "no risk" (sic) parry mechanic tacked onto it.

I was worried before too. Now? Not so much.

-Idle

Thanks for the info.

1) GI was/is easy, 2 frame window is still not to difficult for the talented I believe. I can see some freaks like Omega from DR using this well for eg.

2-3) Yeah I'm aware of those

4) That's good to hear

5) That's gonna be REAAAAAAAAALLLLY hard to balance, I wish them luck with that, that's going to be a hell of a lotta frame data for us to deal with too :/ I hope they don't overdo it with the frames gained though. Characters like Pyrrha who have great fast punishers ala 236:B will have a great adv. again heh

 

[Uber1337]

And Daigo's parry is a bad example. What a lot of people don't know is that in order to parry Chun Li's super, he had to input the parry BEFORE the super flash. In other words, he didn't react to it. He *gasp* guessed. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that people are just going to be able to JG on reaction to every string. :D

Even if he did guess, he still was able to parry every single attack in the combo. My point was simply that good players can learn to pull off things even if the execution window is very small.

5) The JG advantage is move dependent; as in it's different for EVERY move, adjusted by the balance testers individually.

Source: Daishi's twitter

-Idle

I actually didn't know about that one. That should be interesting. If this really is the case, i hope the developers forsee this problem with Maxi and make the jG frames against stance moves almost nothing.

@nickkelz
jG shouldn't really be too much of a problem with things like RO A that have a follow-up, its more the other stances. LO B you will still be able to jG then check duck and punish. Thats why i was suggesting adding built-in followup options to all of the fastest moves in each stance.

 

[soakrates]

Even if he did guess, he still was able to parry every single attack in the combo. My point was simply that good players can learn to pull off things even if the execution window is very small.

Eh, that's just a matter of having timing after the first parry memorized. Unlike that Chun super, strings can be canceled and (hopefully) delayed to avoid being caught by a JG. Also, judging by the footage that's available, Maxi's stance transitions in SC5 seem significantly faster, so going into stance to throw off JG or GI timing could also work.

 

[Uber1337]

its true that you can delay stance moves a bit, but that means that you are losing the frame advantage which is usually just enough to have an uniteruptable option. Its just another way that Maxi is going to have to guess his way out of getting himself punished when he's on the offense. Its just really crappy in this case because he gets no payoff for the risks he puts himself in, he still just gets guarded.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I am still not confident with this JG. Seems to me way more unrisky than GI/PGI ever was. The final game will tell...

 

[WARUI_NE]

why should I have to delay my strings to beat JG?
they are taking far less risk then me

if they fuck up they block
If they guess right I eat a punish

 

[soakrates]

its true that you can delay stance moves a bit, but that means that you are losing the frame advantage which is usually just enough to have an uniteruptable option..

That's not necessarily true. I got a ton of counter hits in SC3 by ever-so-slightly delaying the second hit of BB. I don't see why similar tactics couldn't work in SC5.

if they fuck up they block
If they guess right I eat a punish

(A. As I said before, if Maxi actually has good frames in SC5, them blocking isn't really a huge deal anymore. Hell, back in SC1 when Maxi was top tier, you almost wanted them to keep blocking, and that was in a game that didn't have a guard meter that could be broken for a free launcher.

(B. How are you so certain that every JG will lead to a guaranteed punish? Idle already pointed out that the advantage given will be different for every move.