Mi-na Matchup Discussion

stardustwla

[08] Mercenary
When I vs Mina.............(I am a NM player too, just like killing kilik)

I will crazy Fist/Kick/TC body attack and crazy run closeup.
Disable mina's high attack and auto GI game. Make her no space for tip.
 

Hatman

[08] Mercenary
A few important notes about dealing with Yun:

Figured I'd post it here since I saw some discussion on him in the matchup chart section--not sure if this changes her position in this match (I lean more 5/5, but that's just me) but I'd like to share insight into dealing with his CR and 44B if I may.

Dealing with 44B:

There are pretty much two moves you should be thinking about when threatened with a 44B setup from Yun: Mina's own 44B (more specifically, 4~N4B) and 4B+K.

If you're early or you predict the setup, 44B will snuff his (and actually, most other chars similar 44B style moves) with your own. Just make sure you do a complete or near complete full backdash (4~N) and then tap the second 4 and you'll max Mina's own lunge and have plenty of time to hit the whiff. What's nice is that more often than not you'll land tip 44B and get the big damage combo, which will scare anyone who overuses 44B style setups with their character (Mitsu, X, etc.).

If you're late or a bit off, 4B+K is the other option. It's not too hard to practice this, just use 4B+K late like a normal GI and you should be ok. Yun's 44B doesn't look like anything else of his and it's a fairly slow and deliberate move, so unless you really got caught in a trap or are totally mindfucked (or you whiffed hard) you should be able to get solid damage against it.

Just make sure that if they really like this move or look for opportunities to use it that you bait it properly. The reward for you with both 44B and 4B+K is in your favor.

Dealing with CR:

This is a bit more complicated and takes some experience fighting Yun, but without a good 2A you'll have to take an unorthodox approach to dealing with this pretty good stance to skew (or balance I should say) this more to your favor.

Yun has essentially four mids in CR: K (or K:G), 8K, A+B, and B+K.
He has two NASTY highs: A and B.
He has two lows; one really damaging (2K,K) and one that goes under highs (A+K).

Now I realize this may sound silly, but if you're caught in an uninterruptible CR guessing game then the first thing you should do is duck. His damage in CR comes from normal hit A (if u step) or fast CH B, and if you stand there then his 2K,K does a LOT for a normal hit low. If you duck any of his highs or lows, wsK is guaranteed and the wakes off of this move are very good. Mina at least has one of the best ws moves in the game (decent damage, punishes lots of lows and whiffed highs, quick, and puts people in a pretty nasty wake situation). If you do duck and he does a CR normal hit mid, none of them are that scary. All are mid-20s damage (save B+K, but you shouldn't get hit cleanly by this--likely you'll block it and he'll B,B you which is ok).

If you do duck and he does go with a CR mid, CR K is the worst-case scenario for you. The other mids knock you down and that's pretty much the end of the guessing game and he's gotten his mid-twenties damage. If his CR K does hit you, replay the same scenario. Just don't attack. Flirt with ducking as the primary option and standing as the secondary. Make him have to go mid or eat wsK. If you do guard him successfully and can interrupt him, use Mina's K (it will beat everything but CR A+K and trade [badly] if he makes you block CR K:G and does CR B afterward).

In general, if you're going to attack or counter CR, use Mina's K-based attacks. Interrupt with K and punish with wsK. Neither can be CR vert countered either. If you have your wsK wakes down, this will help put a lot of risk on Yun CR abuse. Also, if you're quick or adept, 6K can replace wsK when ducking or punishing all his CR highs and lows. 6K also cannot be vert countered (very important!) and does very good damage against CR vert counter abuse (it's also one of her most important moves in general, I'll be happy to break it down if anyone is interested in the merits of Mina's 6K).

-Hatman
 

Renki

[09] Warrior
(it's also one of her most important moves in general, I'll be happy to break it down if anyone is interested in the merits of Mina's 6K).

-Hatman
I'd be happy to hear what good properties merit the use of 6K. Personally, I think it's just a garbage version of 4KB, but that's just me. Though they do a-GI "almost" the same things, I find 4KB to more often than not be more rewarding. =\

Edit: Wow, I think I meant 4B+K instead of 4KB. My mistake.
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
Mina vs NM is in NM's adv....4-6

Khent, I'm sorry to say this (hehe no i'm not), but not having a ready to use TC 2A vs NM's GS is VERY VERY problematic. It means you have to now gamble interrupts vs NM's options with every GS transition. A gamble that works considerably for NM as Mina has nothing really damaging to stop him from using it (weak horizontal damage and GS A >> her decent verticals). The problem with this matchup really lies in Mina's sever lack of any fast good TCs for that matter, a commodity that is very important vs him as his high attacks are some of his strongest attacks. iaGA, jaGA, GS A!! Another issues is that she weakly punishes his unsafe attacks (6B+K can only get u that far). He has the range to compete, but he pales to her where gauge breaking is concerned. However he compensates with his EXTREMELY good step, and throw range. hence again...a 4-6 (generous imho). NM. Overall damage favors him, and even if Mina spaces well, she's going to go closer to the edge/wall. A place where you don't want to be vs NM.
 

Hatman

[08] Mercenary
Also, 6K is actually pretty good for wakeup situations involving rollers. For example, the WR K wakes he spoke of. If you nail someone with that and do 6K immediately, any rolls they attempt will be snuffed and you'll get a decent chunk of damage off the ground (they don't have an option to tech to the side after WR K). Of course they can block it and punish you, but then you're making them stand up into your throws, 3A+B or 2B+K.
this.

Bad things about 6K:

Fairly to pretty unsafe depending on matchup.

Good things about 6K:

Vert GIs (pretty minor IMO)
Simple execution.
Fast enough to punish whiffs on step/walk.
Mid.
Launches on normal hit (no tip dependency, no worrying about it being crouched under unlike 6A,K).
Hits on the ground for solid ground damage and very difficult/impossible to roll depending on the situation.

For Mina, what more can you ask for? If you can't space a backdash 3B, lure someone with 44B, or are too close to wsB launch, this is what you use. No tip shenanigans needed here, no worries about someone ducking under a second hit because they were crouching/TC when you punished them, simple execution so it comes out quick for whiffs up close when you need it, hits on the ground solidly and is the hardest move for the opponent to roll. It makes people stand up and Mina wants that. If you wake with this move enough and people start standing up, you have the other safer options as listed above to choose from. It's also worth noting how people are punishing you if they do block it under pressure. If they're only hitting you with B,B then the risk/reward makes it more than worth using since it covers all options but standing guard. Just make sure you're using it after important knockdowns (like wsK or 3A+B) so that they have to choose standing guard or get hit grounded/airborne or launched.

Other bonuses of this move include:

Tech trap launches to all but one side after tip FC1K,K (if they go to that particular side it hits once as they stand but doesn't launch, still not bad).
Free after off-axis 11K.
Free after non-tip 11B.

Great on the wall as well, don't have to worry about tip 3B launching on the wall to get big damage:

Low wall hit 6K; 4A+B,A+B
Low wall hit 6K; 3K,K; ender of choice
High wall hit 6K; 6A+B; 66K,K,K; 6B+K; 33K,B; setup of choice

Also, because it's difficult to roll, you can opt for 6K after any crumple stun (such as after a stunned 3K,K or 6B+K) and delay it. If you delay it right and the opponent taps guard (or pretty much does anything but commit to laying on the ground) it'll double hit on the ground and won't scale, which pretty much beefs her damage to the 70s on CH 4K,B or CH 66K,K,K. It's also a good option after any launch that ends in 33K,B and makes them guess between this or waking into wsK wakes.

Last note about this move is to be careful if you normal launch with it off-axis, specifically if they're a bit too far on Mina's right. Almost everything will whiff as a juggle ender except 3B (43 damage I believe?). I haven't found anything better, but if anyone does know then I'm all ears.

I guess that's it about 6K. As far as Yun CR punishing goes, Khent makes a good point about punishing with pogo. Pretty good idea, might have to make an adjustment regarding that.

-Hatman
 

page

[11] Champion
Only time I've ever though 6K was a good idea was vs grounded, or for strings, and 4B+K is better for strings. I used to use it for pushout vs sleepers, until I started whoring 66A+B, but it I can get 6K to help a little when they roll, I will.
 

Hatman

[08] Mercenary
Khent:

Post 3A+B, a 6K will not hit a teching opponent. However, it does seem a bit safer (at least mentally, lol) than if they tech pogo even though you sacrifice a little damage. Under pressure people seem to respond a bit late on the whiffed 6K on tech as opposed to when Mina is doing her Wicked Witch of the West impersonation across the screen. What is worth noting is that if they do tech 3A+B that they run right into another 1/3A+B or 2B+K guessing game, which can be pretty irritating to the opponent. Just make sure that you take a quick step in after landing 3A+B and they'll tech perfectly into the full 1/3A+B or both hits of 2B+K (go into practice mode to get the step and distance right).

As far as 6K for free rollers, it can be iffy. It's very good if you've run the opponent in a corner on the ground since it'll hit over and over again even if they roll and they MUST stand up. Otherwise, they can USUALLY (not always) time a free roll to get away from it if you don't hit with specific knockdowns. In those situations, I tend to opt for 22K (safe if blocked) or 2A+B cancel, FC 2K. Everyone will easily block a normal 2A+B, but at least it usually makes people stand straight up. That way, when cancelled, they're pretty much guaranteed to get hit by a normal 2K, then I play wsA or 7A or backdash/step stuff even tho she's at disadvantage just to see how they'll respond. If they get lazy, I might opt for a 2A+B cancel into a single FC1K or wsK guessing game. Either way, just make sure that your opponent doesn't have a great CH ws off the ground (like Nightmare, who has a nasty CH ws and can really screw your slower setups). Of course, if you get a jackass who likes to jump your lows or low setups from the ground, then 6K will immediately become your friend.

Sure, I'm happy to contribute. No need for me to hoard all this stuff to myself, since I'm pretty much retired from tournaments and play quite a bit online and some offline (I know the online might make you groan, but I try my damnedest to play an offline-style game online as much as possible). Plus, I've learned a couple things here and there on this board so it's all gravy.

-Hatman
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
Khent:
Don't get me wrong about 6B+K...It's CRITICAL to her game, i just mean for raw damage it can only carry you that far. Especially when that's her only decent punisher from -15 -> -20 iirc. Other characters get so much more, Not only that It's double high so it can be problematic vs some moves.
Like in SC3, Mina had an AWESOME tech trap post 6B+K, and it made it very scary, but now, opponent is just in a force block situation. Not scary enough imo.
 

BelovedChild

[09] Warrior
Hatgrill, Nice to see you posting over here, you're a great Mina, wish you could come to Orlando and meet our local one, Renki. Great playing you online man, GG's as always.
 

krazySyko

[09] Warrior
Something tells me I need to learn more about/learn how to do FCC. Never really heard about it until like, a month or two ago.
 

Rza Flux

[08] Mercenary
SXS:
There's no real point in trying to beat out her SXS stance. But if I do try it, I do 6A.
The SXS K and A, charged or not, aren't threatening at all. FYI: buffed SXS K will get a crouch throw, SXS A will get a AA and buffed SXS A will get a CH 3B.
SXS B is punishable, and the buffed version can be GI-ed pretty easily. Besides, SXS B is slow enough to be interrupted by a 6A or to 8wayrun against it (still dangerous to step the SXS stance because of SXS A).
The only annoying stuff is the throw, but it gets 3 charges for the X player to do it and it's only a 50/50 chance since it's a throw (although you have to input the throww break very very fast).

Punishment:
Lots of Mina's stuff becomes pretty much safe against her if performed at tip range (3B or 3kB for example) as X's range is weak.
However, at close range, there's not a lot of things you can do without getting punished if the X player is knowledgable about Mina's frame data. As her AA is i11 and her 6K and 4K are i14 (or 15?) and knockdown, on hit... So she will get back the advantage on simple stuff that you're used to do against other characters (like WS K for example).
X has a scary FC punisher (FC3B) which she will get a lot against any ducked moves (especially the easy ones like 6B+K).
X's 66B+K - one of her favorite moves - gets you a very easy 3B launcher.
Stuffs like 1BB or 3B will get you 6B+K.
Insanekhent made a great list about it anyway.

General strategy:
Basically, you're better off waiting for her mistakes than trying to attack more than her and putting pressure on her. It is not because Mina has no mix-up, you'd wait the same way with Mitsu.
Spacing is your biggest advantage. You have to be able to space her correctly and bait her from far range : backstep is a key here as it will make her whiff a lot of stuff - even from close range - and get you a free 3B launcher.
X has a scary FC punisher (FC3B) which she will get a lot against any ducked moves (especially the easy ones like 6B+K).
Mina has to do a lot of throws to match hers.
SG advantage is for Mina, by far.
Anti-step: 6A becomes a step-G killer as X's best range is the close range. So basically, throws, 6A and 66A will calm the X player down on stepping.
B-cancel is also a great tool, breaks her rythm and allows you to get some 1_3A+B here and there (she can only punish it with WS K, which is an acceptable damage).
Mina's a lowtier, so good GI game and great defense are a given if you want to win some matches against anybody, and that includes Xinaghua.
 

TidalLeaf

[09] Warrior
WSK with X does knockdown. 6B+K loses it's effectiveness in this matchup (vs X) I think, as she can just crybaby to avoid your 66/44A+B traps (or, that's what it seems like). I usually have more luck backstepping after 6B+K and do a delayed 66A+B. But they can just get up/roll. Any suggestions?
 

ShenYu

[11] Champion
WSK with X does knockdown. 6B+K loses it's effectiveness in this matchup (vs X) I think, as she can just crybaby to avoid your 66/44A+B traps (or, that's what it seems like). I usually have more luck backstepping after 6B+K and do a delayed 66A+B. But they can just get up/roll. Any suggestions?
If they're intent to keep using crybaby just pogo their ass. Haha.
 

TidalLeaf

[09] Warrior
To revive the Mina board:

Mina can punish Amy's 66A+B upclose with K

I do not know why...but I love it.
(Probably some kind of hitbox weirdness)
 

Pocky-Yoshi

[14] Master
To revive the Mina board:

Mina can punish Amy's 66A+B with K.

I do not know why...but I love it.
(Probably some kind of hitbox weirdness)

After getting annoyed at dealing with Kilik's 1B/Asura/WS B setups (Fuckin' SU, bastard...but I love him to death), I went into training and searched for the hopefully one move which takes care of all that nonsense at once, and found it. It's A+K. Asura can't GI it and 1B can't evade it. You'll need to be close to him in order to catch WS B, but if it hits you, you'll only get knocked out of the air instead of eating the stun. Sometimes, Mi-na will hop to the side and WS B will miss completely, but so will her A+K. And at that point, Kilik has a few frames advantage.

And here's the best part - Kilik must punish it with 46B or 66B in order to get guaranteed damage, and he get's no more than 18. Now I'm not saying to spam this shit on him 24/7, but when Kilik is caught in a mixup and just says "Haha, I'll just use 1B/iWS B/Asura to evade it!", make Mi-na say back "Haha, A+K to your face!" It's graceful, too. Too bad wakeups after A+K aren't really good.
Thank you, Mi-na experts.
 

TidalLeaf

[09] Warrior
The key to fighting Nightmare, I find, is being patient and punishing shit like GS A and NSS K (which are hard to do consistently). 44B and to a lesser extent 9B+K becomes very valuable in catching the NSS transition for a sexy 50-80 dmg. SG pressure is also key once again, as his is complete shit so theres no competition.
 

page

[11] Champion
Funny you should be bitching about Nightmare, because I was about to.

Anyway, GS > Mina, and his whiff punishing off of step is some of the most brutal in the game, so you can't poke him at range. Also, he has a really weird hitbox that will make 3b whiff all the time. It's something about the way he stands.
 

ZeroEffect317

[13] Hero
Anyway, GS > Mina
I know I'm no Mina expert, but I'm pretty sure 6B+K interrupts a lot of the GS followups too, except maybe a delayed input after GS. (I know it can't be aGIed by GS A/GS A+B.)

Even if that doesn't work, can't she just 2K interrupt his GS transitions?