My Concerns on the Reversal Edge.

Dreryu

Dreryu

[08] Mercenary
As I played the Beta over the weekend. I notice that when Reversal Edge is activated, if you don't block it well take a good chunk of health at least 30% to 35% of your health. Also you have unlimited activation of RE, which is annoying. Two ways that can make RE some what better, is to reduce the damage on hit to 25% or set limited amount of activation of RE.
 
Yes I know that, I been doing it since in the Beta. But their some players are abusing it like crazy (I admit that lost to at least 4 players that use this abusive method). So not only you get damage when not blocking or at least have a limited number of RE activations.
 
So im not trying to be difficult and have no intention of starting arguments but....

I to had trouble with what I thought was “spam or abuse”. However i realized that if i got hit with the RE and it took damage from me...well... not matter it was RE or anything else, i was gonna take damage anyway.

I also found that if I was seeing what one could persive as abuse, then I was being predictable. So I needed to change things. And once I figured that REs could be stepped, then it made it all that much more easier to deal with. And my perception of “this mother fucker just spams RE like a bitch” turned into “haha look at this motherfuck spam RE like a bitch. Watch as I step it and punish his dumbass.”

With these new mechanics we are seeing, it is easy to point at something we dont fully understand and claim “spam!” But as with all “spam” there is typically a way around it unless its game breaking. Which RE is far from.
 
I agree with Hot Rod Dave on this one.

I too initially found that I was being murdered by people using the Reversal Edge mechanic, until I just realized it was vertical only and that there are more ways to deal with it than horizontal/vertical/kick. Specifically, I was being murdered by a Mitsurugi using his vertical, vertical, vertical combination that activates the reversal edge. Before I understood what was happening the flashing and the whole intense visual presentation of the reversal edge mechanic was freakin me out. But once I learned it was more open ended than I initially thought, I really love its place in the game!

I really like the mechanic, especially when you get some good clashes going on as people input the same command. I think this is a great addition for new players, and experienced alike. Stoked for the full release!
 
I'm not trying to be difficult and have no intention of starting arguments either, plus the game is still new. I'm used to been spam'd at lot in fighting games. I guess I'm old school and jaded, it just with the RE been used so much it just slow the game down consistently. The Visual effects looks good but at what cost, if they use the Tekken slow-mo mechanics (where two fighters swing at each at the same time). Instead of making it look so artificial with RE mechanic. Again I'm old school and jaded, Namco-Bandai did a great job making this game and hopfully sell well so that we can get SC7. I pre-order this game early august and played the Beta. I going playing this game in side and out. See guys on-line on October 19,2018.
 
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I'M INCLINED TO AGREE WITH DRERYU.

IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF MERELY SIDESTEPPING REVERSAL EDGE THE MOMENT YOU SEE IT SINCE THE OPPONENT HAS THE BENEFIT OF SEMI-CHARGING REVERSAL EDGE AND RELEASING IT THE MOMENT THEY KNOW YOU MIGHT START SIDESTEPPING. ALSO, THE INITIATOR HAS SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE IN ROUND 2 OF REVERSAL EDGE UNLIKE ROUND 1 WHEN IT'S EQUAL. THIRDLY, THE DAMAGE REWARD CAN GET EXCESSIVE. LASTLY, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY SAY THAT SUCCESSFUL REVERSAL MEANS SOMEONE WAS BEING TOO PREDICTABLE BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BENEFITING USERS WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A STRONG READ ON THEIR OPPONENTS.

I THINK AT LEAST ONE CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE: SCALE THE DAMAGE DOWN A BIT, REMOVE THE SEMI-CHARGE ASPECT FOR STARTING UP REVERSAL EDGE, MAKE ROUND 2 OF REVERSAL EDGE EQUAL IN TERMS OF CONSEQUENCES TO ROUND 1.
 
Dreryu said:
I'm not trying to be difficult and have no intention of starting arguments either, plus the game is still new. I'm used to been spam'd at lot in fighting games. I guess I'm old school and jaded, it just with the RE been used so much it just slow the game down consistently. The Visual effects looks good but at what cost, if they use the Tekken slow-mo mechanics (where two fighters swing at each at the same time). Instead of making it look so artificial with RE mechanic. Again I'm old school and jaded, Namco-Bandai did a great job making this game and hopfully sell well so that we can get SC7. I pre-order this game early august and played the Beta. I going playing this game in side and out. See guys on-line on October 19,2018.
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I totally agree that it brings a slow down to the game that at this moment im not convinced that i like yet. Seemed everytime a RE or CE was performed, the game lagged HORRIBLE for me. It REALLY broke up the speed of the game for me.

Im old school as well man. At 40yo all this stuff is starting to get over the top really. Im not a big fan of RE yet myself. Best you and i can now is adapt. I do feel tour pain brother.
 
MONEYMUFFINS said:
I'M INCLINED TO AGREE WITH DRERYU.

IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF MERELY SIDESTEPPING REVERSAL EDGE THE MOMENT YOU SEE IT SINCE THE OPPONENT HAS THE BENEFIT OF SEMI-CHARGING REVERSAL EDGE AND RELEASING IT THE MOMENT THEY KNOW YOU MIGHT START SIDESTEPPING. ALSO, THE INITIATOR HAS SIGNIFICANT ADVANTAGE IN ROUND 2 OF REVERSAL EDGE UNLIKE ROUND 1 WHEN IT'S EQUAL. THIRDLY, THE DAMAGE REWARD CAN GET EXCESSIVE. LASTLY, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY SAY THAT SUCCESSFUL REVERSAL MEANS SOMEONE WAS BEING TOO PREDICTABLE BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BENEFITING USERS WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A STRONG READ ON THEIR OPPONENTS.

I THINK AT LEAST ONE CHANGE SHOULD BE MADE: SCALE THE DAMAGE DOWN A BIT, REMOVE THE SEMI-CHARGE ASPECT FOR STARTING UP REVERSAL EDGE, MAKE ROUND 2 OF REVERSAL EDGE EQUAL IN TERMS OF CONSEQUENCES TO ROUND 1.
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I can get with this for sure. I think RE should cost a little bit of meter if not scaling the damage or both
 
Dreryu said:
at least 30% to 35% of your health.
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Looks more like 10% to 15% to me.

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Not only does RE lose to guard breaks, there's also a large list of attacks that can still side step the RE counter attack even if you hit into the RE. Once we actually have a practice mode it will be easy to find all of them.

If it was up to me reversal edge wouldn't be in the game period. But it's nothing to do with balance.
 
I feel like when new stuff like this is implemented it is always best to give it time before making any firm judgements. Like it or not (and I like it as already mentioned), I think we will have to see how players deal with it once the game is released and has been played for a few months.
 
Thanks for the comments on this matter, someone here mention a cool down mechanic. That's not a bad idea something like blazblue or guilty gear burst mechanic. Where you activate the RE there should be at least a 10 second cool down, before you can use it again. Maybe that might be too long, especially rounds go pretty fast.
 
I like universal armor moves. I think that they are good to relieve the stress of pressure and encourage a wider scope of adaptive play--that is, to change your approach rather than just changing your moves. I think Tekken 7 and Pokken implement the concept very well. They are balanced in risk and reward. But I feel like RE is a bit too... overbearing in its influence... due to how little things beat it just when it comes to intersecting moves, how much reward you get just for doing it (damage on strike + all that fucking meter), and how it completely disrupts the flow of play for both players. I also don't enjoy the RPS sequence itself aside from the disruption it causes. I don't like how it gives advantage to the initiator to win ties and much more easily break guards, and how much reward is gotten from winning this sequence. I actually like RE most when I use it to end rounds; I just KO them and don't have to do the dumb RPS thing.

The thing is, it's very obvious that they want us to use it, and use it a lot. The thing that most stands out to me in favor of that is the meter gain. I've had people spamming REs on me--and this is including sidestepping and launching about 50% of them--drop four CEs in one game. If you're not using RE at all, it feels like meter is on a slow drip. So you almost have to use it. If there is one thing I would change about RE, I'd drastically reduce its meter gain and raise the meter gain for all other actions. That would make it a more measured risk that people can integrate as they personally see fit. "I can armor my way out of this oppressive pressure, but then I have to win the RE sequence or it's back into the same stuff. Do I feel confident in that, or would I rather guard or time a GI?" Right now the meter gain forces it into the meta really ungracefully. That and the fact that it's unblockable at full charge (and still deals damage) made its application and exploration during the beta pretty braindead. There was so much "oh they're charging RE at neutral, step, launch" that the "oh fuck i wasn't thinking about my pressure" didn't happen enough to really think about that.

Pokken's armor move, counter attack, is even more permeated into the game's very design than RE, and its metagame is very rich. The mechanic itself is very balanced, it integrates smoothly and undisruptively into play, it offers fair risks and rewards. Pokken was also designed from the ground up as a new property. RE feels so obviously tacked on in comparison, and shoved down our throats. I enjoyed the beta the most when RE was not being used at all, or was being used very sparingly. I think we can still develop a good meta around it, but I strongly believe it needs some changes. I'm sure we'll get another month one patch that invalidates printed strategy guides and fixes this. :P
 
What my problem with current RE is are the Soul Gauge cost if you miss the RE and the amount of meter you get from a succesful RE.
You get the Soul Gauge back if you parry with RE, that means there is a way to neutralize the "cost" (which isn't a real cost).
And you get around a half bar for a successful RE ? That's just ridicuouls the CS and SC use is stupidly high.

I think, RE should cost Soul Gauge for activating and not replenish it at all - just an example, with a non touched soul gauge, using RE 10 times will bring it down to red glow.
The new JG could replenish abit Soul Gauge (if it isn't already)
And about the Meter, 1/4 of a bar would be enough.
 
I also kinda want a JG to offer something more rewarding than a tiny bit of soul gauge.

< < < Crazy enough player who loved Just Guard in SC5
 
Once we all get our Lethal Hits down, the meter gain in RE will a lot less of a bother. As echo'd above:
1. Ending rounds with a simple RE felt great. Particularly cold.
2. Tournament use of hefty mechanics and attacks that mix them, overlapping with each other has been my fav portion of this hype train. Yoshimitsu CE punishing SC, Yoshimitsu counter grabbing Nightmare's explosion, ect...
 
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