Natsu Movelist Discussion and Analysis

Yeah, I think I can just about confirm that Natsu is overpowered. I'm 42 and 6 with her and I'm no way that good. Unless the people I'm playing are just really bad.

Thanks for the testing taXi, I'll change the frame data. And thanks for the tip Aku, I wanted to use her throw from PO, but I was having a hard time executing it. I'll try this.

Ghost, I don't think PO 8+A+B+K is a move. You probably mean PO A+B+K~8 where she teleports then goes into HOV.

I think she has a lot of strong gimmicks but isn't OP other than how much damage she does and her tech trap game. Her nuetral game against some characters like alpha patroklos is really hard as he can get a 30% punisher on her A+B.

In fact I think alpha is best character in game. Whose bright idea was it to give a tech crouching, SS, mid that causes an untechable stun on normal hit that leads to a 108 damage combo and make it safe on block.

Natsu is Top 3 unquestionably but think people are sleeping way to much on alpha, bitch gets 40% off a throw and can combo his 2A (longest range 2A in the game I think) into super after hit confirming the 2A.
 
Hmm. I don't think she is overpowered either. Every SC game in the past people have been like omg she is so broken when the game gets released. From True EXC in SC2, Dart setups in SC3, to PO K in SC4. I have to admit that this is prob her strongest iteration, but opponents will catch on.

The only difference now is that Natsu unlike Taki can compete with high damage characters. That and is it just me or is her PO A:6 and A:6 way to easy to do? i7 and i10 is on the verge of just too strong imo.
 
soon people will realize that u can own most PO moves with tech crouch moves and will also start use side steps which seems that natsu suffers , i already find it very hard to win against Ω pyrha and patroklos.
 
Yah that was my 1st thought with Natsu. Without PO sidestep she is going to be eaten alive by TC 3b's. I seem to be doing fine right now, but like I said opponents just need to get used to Natsu and how to punish her.

I have been trying to test out Natsu's PO A+B+K teleport but it seems to be inconsistent. What have you guys found with this move?
 
it gives me the impression that it makes the next PO move a bit faster, not sure if it is the effects and all that crap.
 
That's probably how we're going to have to start dealing with people spamming TC moves every time we ~PO.
 
PO~K seems to be another solution, the damage is fine,not great but hey, at least we have sth.
Hover is the other options but for the moment it seems unreliable since it is very random vs 3C TC.
PO K also some times trades so be ware
 
LOL, Natsu teleports, then just stands there for almost 5 hours while the opponent goes away, has lunch, runs some errands, then comes back home to punish her.


I think you guys/gals are sort of missing the point.

Unless you are doing a mirror match and you have to worry about Natsu’s i10 A:6. This moves TJ to avoid lows and is only –15 on block and –3 on hit so its not like you are going to be taking that much of a risk.

A lot of playing Natsu is going to revolve around implementing some of the basic skill sets that were needed to play high level SC2 Taki.

AA6 on hit is –3. Block and test out the waters and get info on how your opponent is going to react and use that info to your advantage. If they 3B and you block… congrats you can retaliate with a free A:6.

On block AA6 is punishable, but still feel comfortable to toss this out there still if you trained your opponent right.
 
I was just joking bro. I believe it probably has it's uses. I'm not too good at incorporating it into my game yet though. I did try it a couple times and had deer in my headlights. I couldn't think of anything to follow it up with though.
 
Well Natsu is negative even after doing 6A+B ~ PO. Opponent BB will beat 100% of Natsu's options except for EX teleport unless they just aren't mashing hard enough (read -7 somewhere). AA's will lose to an immediate B+K but beat everything else. EX teleport into the back turned K followup works a lot for me right now and seems pretty safe on block but some punishes to PO option select it.

I don't find 6A+B4 that amazing so I"m a bit confused on the hype. After I do it my local players just do a move that both tech crouchers and SS for a guaranteed punish.

Pyrrah gets 22B for free
Alpha gets some launcher

Only people I play locally at the second but I imagine other characters have equally damaging punishes. Just it probably isn't a move they use a lot so they don't think they can use it.

Natsu can do 22_88A and if they go into PO it's free damage into mixup. For the mirror.
 
you can mix it up with 6A+B without 4. I'm liking it because it has surprisingly good range. I agree with the punish bit though, but alternatively 6A+B4 PO A+B+K K for a free neck slice?
 
One question TaXi, if you did B[K]4 to get into PO, are you sure the shift into PO doesn't add or remove any frames to the B[K]?

wombat: apologies, B[K] is +8 on hit as 2K (i18) after B[K] will trade with A (i10).

some notes and opinions:
- i use AAB for interrupt/cutting step, and as such i don't really use AA~6. more mixups is always good though.
- 6A+B has decent TC frames, but the move isn't TC for the full duration so it can get iffy. for example, after AA on hit or block, 6A+B will beat taki's AA. however, for some reason it will lose to pyrrha's K on hit or block, and pyrrha's AA on block.
- PO A after 6A+B on block will trade with pyrrha's B (i14), and beat anything slower. PO B+K will handle highs, and PO K will handle 2As. for TC mids i16 or faster (faster than PO K can come out), i recommend doing teleport or 8B+G (a ghetto escape option).
- i do think that taki players tend to either get too caught up in the PO game or ignore it completely. i personally would never use 6A+B in a situation where i didn't think it'd hit (i.e. punishing, baiting CH), but having said that it's always good to keep her PO options in mind.

other notes:
- leixia 22B is punishable by K
- pat 236AB is punishable close-range by 6A+B, and at any range by 3KK
- 8K will always jump and punish the 2nd hit of pyrrha's 236AA (and obviously before the BE can come out)
 
AA6 on hit is –3. Block and test out the waters and get info on how your opponent is going to react and use that info to your advantage. If they 3B and you block… congrats you can retaliate with a free A:6.

On block AA6 is punishable, but still feel comfortable to toss this out there still if you trained your opponent right.

then why to use AA6 on hit? instead use A:6 from the start :P

yea 6A+B has some tech crouch frames but they are somewhere in the midle of the animation too early and u get hit, too late and u get hit again,strange.....
 
Hmm good stuff posted guys. I am trying to refrain myself for leaning too much in either direction (po vs non po). I think we will all balance out when get over the whole "omg new move" mentality.

I did discovered last night that I can drop doing the PO A:6 just from 90% to 10% if I am pissed haha.
 
pissed as in mad or pissed as in drunk? haha..

in any case, someone mentioned 4A+B PO as a plus for natsu because it's -3 on block, and i thought it'd be a great example of how natsu players need to identify the risk/reward involved when going into PO mixups.

now if an opponent blocks 4A+B, he/she's going to be crouching. now as natsu you can do PO A which will come out as i10 (due to the -3 after 4A+B PO on block), but bear in mind that the opponent is crouching, and will duck your high either by remaining in crouch status or attacking with a WS move that has tech crouch frames. you can do a PO K that will be i13 and stuff everything, but keep in mind that PO K is about 20 dmg on CH, -6 on hit and a staggering -21 on block. all other PO moves are i20 or more, and can pretty much be 2Aed/stepped on sight. in this case, it's clear that the risk/reward is skewed against natsu. in fact, the only logical reason one would go into PO after 4A+B is to make it safer (normally -15 on block).

different PO strings/moves have different challenges/opportunities. for example, going into PO after 66B makes it safer, and allows for a basic PO rush into PO B/PO B+K mixup on hit. on block 6A+B PO isn't very good, but it's the risk you have to take if you want to access a damaging combo on CH (and a guaranteed PO A:6 or semi-guaranteed PO B on normal hit).

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and since i'm on my old-man rant here, i'd just like to state that frame data isn't everything (even though i churned out frame data on day 1, haha). for example, 66K is one of taki's defining moves: a fast move with instantaneous tech jump/tech crouch frames that closes in on the opponent. but people have been avoiding it like the plague since SC1 because it's -16 on block and -4 on hit (btw it used to be -20 on block and -10 on hit). i never thought about using it until one day in SC2 when someone hit me with 66K, GIed my counterattack (duh! it's -10!) and killed me with a ninja cannon into 6KA 66K.

so keep an open mind! try out everything that taki has to offer, understand the opportunity/challenge behind each move, and have a few weird setups in your back pocket just in case.

[btw i blame our obsession on frame data on PORC... that +1 on block after AB PO in SC1 is the reason why all the old-school taki players immediately test out the frames for PO rush cancel. it's never coming back, guys.]
 
Hahaha. I do not drink as heavily as I used to. I think playing online is just a great way to mess with my overall timing. Not only that, but I think you can pick up some really bad habits online. I know people like to post of vids of online play and such but there are times were it just seems like a mash fest.

The last time I drank heavily was when Linda and I were in Singapore. I know that’s probably just an average night for you heh.

Was doing a lot of testing on her PO options and was just about getting stuffed on everything I was coming up with. Not to mention I still from time to time try to input AB1B for PO. Still haven’t found the time to test out PO A+B+K, but was having some odd success with PO 2 teleport. It was late in the night with my session with my friend and it seemed to avoid a lot of stuff, but was inconsistent.

What move do you guys like to do post GI? And do you think GI is still an effective tool? I haven’t practice Just Guarding yet.

I think I just like AA6 due to it reminding me visually of Taki’s old rush down. But I am finding it rather useful still to toss in the mix of AA & AAB.
 
@nofacekiller: Actually, yeah, it's AC'able. I just have no idea what to do after WS B 4a+bA, but at least it's something. 4B after a crouched high is pretty good, I've found... But depending on how much frame disadvantage the opponent is after a whiffed high, i think one is better off with 66B (BE).

My own 2 cents for PO BE. I've been having great success getting BT PO K to connect after a successful PO BE evasion both offline and online. Several things to note though... It is possible to ring yourself out if the edge of the ring is in front of them (behind you as you start the neck slice). She does a giant leap after the move, so it's easy to overestimate the distance to the edge. And, as mentioned before, several PO counters do option select to counter PO BE into BT PO anything. In that regards, I've found that Patroklos's 236AB autocorrects at some point. Probably when PO K and Pat's 236A are done at the same time (if it doesn't autocorrect, you get lame BT PO K with non AT damage). Also, some moves will move the opponent too far away for the BT PO K to connect (like Mitsu's 66BB). Lastly, BT PO K is a mid and is rather safe on block. Dunno the frames, but I've been unable to punish with Natsu's A.

@Neoshinji: I actually like GI. I tend to not use my meter that often, so I'd rather use it for GI's and PO BE. I personally go for 4B or BK4(PO) post GI... Both leave them grounded and Natsu in Possession. Recently I've found it much more comfortable to go into PO only when the opponent is grounded.
 
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