Natsu Movelist Discussion and Analysis

how do you block BT PO K? Regular PO K is -21 on block. Pretty unsafe.

TaXi, I have PO K down as being i10. Is that wrong? Also, what about HOV after a blocked 4A+B? And what are the evasion properties of SM (PO 2)? Does it even have any?
 
@UnseenWombat: Sorry, I only have a potato to record stuff on.


I think it has to do with how late in the move the impact occurs... Closer to the end of the move, thus reducing recovery.
 
@Frost: PO BT K seems to be -8. I was able to punish it with Natsu's 2bA.. it's hard though. Also since the move comes out so slow, you can AA her out of that move. Otherwise, you have more than enough time to step once Natsu is BT PO.. defeats all her options.

This only applies if they're patient VS natsu in PO though. Otherwise PO A+B+K, BT PO K is used to punish people pressing buttons while we're in PO. Good stuff.

-ASZ
 
@ASZ: Yeah, was never able to punish BT PO K with mekki... My inputs must be shoddy. Great move to throw out there if you know they can't step though, like after that 2A. I actually think PO BE can be used to react to an opponent counter (pending more testing by getting beat up by my buddies). I have a feeling it's invulnerable right when you press A+B+K.

While we're on the topic: I forgot to mention that you do have the option to BT HO B. It still gives you BT A+B into more pressure opportunities... I honestly have no idea how viable this option is though.
 
BT PO Hover B, BT A+B, 66B BE, FC A+B, 44KK is guaranteed on hit too lol. But yeah BT A+B is really nice but I'll have to check the frame data and see how safe it is to use when I get home.

-ASZ
 
UnseenWombat said:
how do you block BT PO K? Regular PO K is -21 on block. Pretty unsafe.

TaXi, I have PO K down as being i10. Is that wrong? Also, what about HOV after a blocked 4A+B? And what are the evasion properties of SM (PO 2)? Does it even have any?
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it's i13 because i'm taking into account the -3 after 4A+B on block.
 
I have been using less and less of 66B BE (only in juggles) and using meter mainly for PO A+B+K and CE. Her A+G BE is pretty bad since she flashes Yellow haha so outside of setting it up with GI its pretty bad. Not too sure if the break window is less, but my crew can easily break 66B+G anyways.

PO A+B+K is even pretty decent if your opponent happens to step 6A+B4 since you can dash away from them and if they try to punish natsu is usually out of range and can once again get another BT PO K.

Its still a guessing game so but I have had a lot of success with it. It helps me land other moves out of PO more.

Also, still loving AA6 haha... sorry.
 
I think with AA6, you're getting a lot of deer-in-headlights from people coming to expect the AAB, since every Natsu scrub online spams it to hell and back.
 
Ah not an online player myself. Talking strat when it pertains to online is sort of silly. Everything I discuss is what I have tested against team mates or people who travel from out of town to play us.

A lot of the reason why they will pause is because I will do strings like.
AA, iWS A mix ups.
AA, throw
A:6
AAB
AA, 2A
AA, Back Dash/8WR

Which will lead to me being able to mix up AA6

AA6 is just a good tempo changer. In a small way like how Taki's SC2/SC3 B delay B was. Going from aggro to defensive play is pretty effective.

Can not say this enough to Natsu players... stay off of online if you want to improve. Playing a random scrub in your area is far better than doing an online grind with some top whatever online ranked player.
 
Looking at the movelist though, I don't see what advantage there is to doing AA6. It's -15 on block, -3 on hit, while a simple AA is only -10 and +2. What is the benefit to adding the teleport? Other than making it look flashy.
 
i think i have an idea but i gave my copy to a local friend so he can train himself a bit and i can't test..
try 3B/22_B, AA6 ,FC A+B Or try the AA6 near a wall/ring edge ..u never know.
 
Well on block you just do the AA and leave it at that, you can still test the waters a bit though if you trained them to fear AAB.

AA6 on hit and see how they react. Its only -3 on block so its not like they are going to punish you. Just have a throw break ready.

If they do AA it is going to go over you anyways since you are already in crouched position. So you get a WS A which will lead to more mix-ups. Or just 2A them which leads to mix-ups.

If they respond with BB or 3B more than likely you are going to be able to punish with an A:6 or AA. Abuse the fact that Natsu has an i10 A.

If they just sit there and do nothing just throw them. Or do a move that is safe on block like WS A that is safe on block and tracks if they try to sidestep in anticipation of a Natsu doing a WS K.
This might seem trivial amount of damage for so much work but it does add up. And as far as flow is concerned it does help you lead into the bigger damage combos that everyone is so fond of.

Keeping an opponent on lock down and getting them to the point where they feel a though they can not move without being punished will cause them to pause more and more. After awhile you can start doing iPO B.

None if this works online because people are just too concerned with getting their combo out. So they are not really spamming a punishing move as much as just spamming their combo starter.
 
Neoshinji said:
Can not say this enough to Natsu players... stay off of online if you want to improve. Playing a random scrub in your area is far better than doing an online grind with some top whatever online ranked player.
Click to expand...

To elaborate, Neoshinji isn't saying to avoid playing good players. From my experience in fighting games, getting my guts stomped out by someone far better than me actually helped me improve more effectively (less bad habits develop). He's saying that hunting for matches by online rankings is unproductive more often than not. The numbers online symbolize how much someone plays, not how good they are. Not to say that good online players don't exist, but rather you're not likely to find a high level player in the top 10 ranks or whatever because instead of fighting randoms in ranked, most of them arrange matches with other high level players on forums or whatever.

I can't stress this enough, but it also REALLY helps if you ask people you play against for advice. Only a serious scumbag will keep anything to their self anymore. This isn't like the early 2000s where players would keep tight-lipped about their new tech until somebody found an answer to it and told the world.

I'm preaching to the choir on this one because I'm sure plenty of people have said this stuff already to where it's common knowledge.

On-Topic stuff that I felt sketchy about posting because I'm still new to SC and this stuff is probably common knowledge already:
Neoshinji said:
AA6 is just a good tempo changer. In a small way like how Taki's SC2/SC3 B delay B was. Going from aggro to defensive play is pretty effective.
Click to expand...

I'm no SC expert, but I know enough about fighting games to agree with this 100%. Staggering moves can throw off impatient players and if you make them afraid of certain moves (66B+G, 4A+B, etc.), you can either stagger or fake into another follow-up to catch them pushing buttons. If you can combo off of the counter hit, even better! That'll teach them to make bad guesses. I would mess with some of these before taking them to a match because again, I'm new to SC. These are just examples I looked into while trying to find potential means of fishing counter hits on someone afraid of Natsu's damaging options:

Mixing up AAB and AA6 - Simple enough and everyone should know this one by now. Condition somebody to react to one follow-up and then throw out the other one to catch them off guard. Mind you against a more experienced player, I'm sure this is an easy one to deal with (it really isn't hard to react to a character leaving the ground).

AA6 Follow-ups - When you do this variation, obviously you wouldn't just do nothing afterwards. It would be funny just to see how long the other player freezes up for, but it's not helping you win. For starters, you can follow up with what should be the most obvious option, the command grab (66B+G). For a character like Natsu to have such a damaging throw, the other player SHOULD be scared of it. If you feel like the other player will try to react to the grab follow-up (as opposed to just punishing AA6 immediately after blocking), you can follow-up with WS K. It's fast, tracks side steps (I think), and most importantly, you get a combo off of it on counter hit. Keep in mind that while AA6 is a good tool, it's nowhere near abusable. Use it seldom to make it a true threat.

BB4A+B - It's a textbook mix-up if I've ever seen one in a 3D fighter. The drawbacks should be obvious if you're no stranger to how mix-ups typically work. One drawback being that if the mix-up (the 4A+B, which is a low) is reacted to and blocked, you're screwed or at the least, you're losing your offensive momentum. If it HITS, you get a free 214, PO 8B+G or whatever the heck else you want to do afterwards. Another drawback is that it's punishable before the 4A+B even comes out. Be careful with this.

BB4A+B~A - Really sketchy means of catching people reacting to the 4A+B. The only reason I say it's sketchy is because the A follow-up is a high, 4A+B is a low, you do the math. I'm sure most characters can outright stuff the 4A+B while crouching, so they could avoid getting hit by the A follow-up and still punish you anyways. Needless to say, this can be kinda useful, especially if you delay it a little to "broadcast" the 4A+B coming out. Once again, since the A follow-up is a high, this is pretty sketchy.

Just a few examples, make what you will of them. Shun me if they're stupid. That just teaches me they aren't good ideas and I have to mess with other things in the lab.

That's all I got.

EDIT: Neoshinji's post about AA6 wasn't there when I was making this post initially. I stand corrected. I have to remember that -3 in a 3D fighter and -3 in a 2D fighter are a difference between safe and unsafe.
 
Anyone have any good solutions (e.g hit or blocked pokes) to draw an opponent into CH combos - particularly the openers CH WR K, CH FC A+B? I've been relying on 2A and AA 6, and have used 2B with mixed results.

As nice as the +8 hit from 2A is, it has incredibly short range, and a lot of times I have to gamble with moving in to close range. AA 6 is nice, but requires an immediate counterattack to fit in with the timing of the ~FrC. From my experience, 2B has been more easily defended by my opponents - for that matter, I've found that many of Natsu's vertical slashes are more easily countered/blocked when directly opening with them. Although i15, opponents have either recognized the opening 5B/2B quick enough to block/quick step.
 
@lawlrus: If you haven't already, learn to reliably input iWS K. The move itself is a TC move and will CH highs. An example of this application is knowing (or anticipating) when a Leixia player will use AA(B) in a poking game and getting that CH WS K in between the As... This situation usually happens when you are at mild to severe disadvantage (like after having one of your attacks blocked).

Unfortunately goading the opponent to attack into a CH WS K is a tad more difficult nowadays, so you'll have to resort to some intense yomi to get that CH.

Oh and if you haven't yet, you can test the waters with 1A > WS K. One of the oldest tricks in the book. Very unreliable low, but the WS K after should be almost uninterruptible. I say almost because I've been knocked out of WS K after this setup, which is worrisome. Happened on release day, never used that move (1A) ever, again....
 
What does Natsu do to Siegfried(I guess what doesn't anyone do to Siegfried) in terms of the moves that really mess him up?
 
Biolink said:
What does Natsu do to Siegfried(I guess what doesn't anyone do to Siegfried) in terms of the moves that really mess him up?
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I literally only asked that question the other day in the Q/A Thread. Siegfried is a real pain to fight because it can be hard to tell what's safe and what's unsafe against him. Your best bet is to hit training mode and mess with Siegfried, learn what his moves look like and which ones are unsafe. For punishing him, check this thread out. It's really helpful.
 
What do you guys think about 3A?
It is slower than Taki's version i think, and the Stun is easier shakeable.
BUT it's still a tech crouch, late, and now a safer one at that.
It's not even Pyrrha 236B unsafe.
Even though it's disadvantage on hit, on counter hit i think it gives a free mix up between lows and mids, especially safe vertical mids, because the stun seems to make stepping 3KK or BB impossible.
 
FleshMasher said:
What do you guys think about 3A?
It is slower than Taki's version i think, and the Stun is easier shakeable.
BUT it's still a tech crouch, late, and now a safer one at that.
It's not even Pyrrha 236B unsafe.
Even though it's disadvantage on hit, on counter hit i think it gives a free mix up between lows and mids, especially safe vertical mids, because the stun seems to make stepping 3KK or BB impossible.
Click to expand...
i'm thinking it's probably best against quick highs and evasive moves that people like to throw at minor disadvantage when you're up close. i never really use it, but when i do, it usually hits. i give it a B-


did we talk about A+B yet? this move is retarded against certain charaters who simply can't punish it (mitsu at least). yeah they get a mixup up close, but this move has nice rewards. this move being -12 is kinda crazy considering how awesome it is.. gets a knockdown, a combo, it has range, it jumps and it even steps a little bit... lol.

anybody punishing lows with 6A+B4 POA:6? it seems like a good idea if you're totally focused, but i'm not consistent enough with the JF to feel confident. also looks like it would be a great round-ender for blocking a low or ducking a throw, since her true WS moves have crappy damage and there's that whole magic last 10% health business. this move also TC's certain strings with a slow-ish high. if it tracked it would be broken.
 
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