DeathInMyEyes
DIME
Yeah, I'd be happy to beat up on Pyrrha. I'll be more than happy to upload the footage, too.
PSN is right over there <--
PSN is right over there <--
Pyrrha matchup
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banes
[10] Knight
I think we are starting veer off course here, this discussion isnt about banes49 vs nightmares of the world, and who I am better or not better than, although just for the record, u stating that u play against pyrrahs better than me is a mere guess backed by absolutely nothing, lets keep factless discussions outside of this conversation, I am sorry if I offended u, but my intention is not to provoke u, please try to keep your ego in check
if anything, what I want to do is further this discussion, since it seems to have revolved around smashing pyrrah nubs, and hasnt had much discussion about playing good pyrrahs, of course as a pyrrah player I would love to enhance my knowledge of NM and possible solutions they have to a good pyrrah play style, as well as kind of feeling sorry of nightmare, since to me at least, it seems like such an uphill battle, I am not saying nightmare can NEVER win against pyrrah, obviously the players controlling these characters have far much more to do than the characters themselves, however, I feel as far as the matchup itself goes, nm kind of has the odds stacked against him
I would be more than happy to try some of these strategies against deathinmyeyes, since I would rather not experience 1 bar madness, however I am very curious about the guard crushing strategy, and I am afraid that you both probably would not utilize this strat in the same fashion, if you could post some of these guard crushing strategies enraged so that deathinmyeyes could utilize them against me, that would be great, my psn is banes49
as for pyrrah linearity, she has good anti step kills in 66A and 22K, its true she has linear moves, but what character does not have linear moves? I think to be considered very linear, you have to have poor or no anti step tools, obviously stab is linear, however naked stabs are the sign of an inexperienced pyrrah player, as stab should be used as punishment, anyway I feel this point is moot since everyone has linear moves, but pyrrah also has good anti step tools
as for pyrrah having to take risks, what character does not have to take risks? every high can be ducked, every throw can be ducked or broken, most verticals can be stepped, all lows can be jumped, we take a risk even blocking high or low, and even stepping or backstepping, truthfully, pyrrah being one of the safer characters in the game, she has to take far less risk in my opinion to do well than other characters, her damage comes from 3B or 44_33_11B or 22K (NOT 66B BE), which as far as I can tell, are all safe against nightmare, barring possibly a K or low kick, I am starting to feel that your points of contention are merely directed against me, and not necessarily contributing to the discussion itself, or maybe you are just speaking from experience which is more a reflection of the players you play with rather than the flaws of pyrrah herself
also, as far as whiffing, playing enough NM you start to realize when you are out of range for a 236B to hit, however, keep in mind that pyrrah can also use 236236B
it seems like most of this discussion is turning into speculation, but I want to have a sincere conversation that can be tested, a lot of what we will be testing will come down to player vs player over pyrrah vs nm, so really what can we truthfully prove if I beat eyes every time, or if he beats me every time? it seems like it would prove who is the better player, rather than if NM is an even matchup for pyrrah, still though I think discussing and trying out this guard crush strategy maybe fruitful
edit: I actually believe I know of a strategy NM can use to win against pyrrah, lots of throws and quick low kicks, and I mean heavily relying on them, this might work, but if it does, isnt that a sign that there is a better character that can be used in this matchup who also has throws and fast lows but who also has safe mids?
banes49, it's really about how you phrase your question.
A rude introduction telling us that our discussion only works on noobs most definitely won't net you a polite response from us.
I could've posed the same question to you:
What happens when Pyrrha face a Nightmare that doesn't use punishable moves, able to fuzzy your mid/low mixups, breaks throws consistently and hammers away at your guard gauge until it breaks?
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Anyways, theory fighting like the above is going to be pointless.
Perhaps you can enlighten us on your Pyrrha gameplan and we'll see if Nightmare truly has no answer to it or the odds are really stacked against him.
A discussion is definitely possible, but both sides will need to be realistic about it and not assume it's a superhuman playing the character. After all, even top players succumb to throws, does the moves you deem stupid, eats slow lows etc.
In short, don't talk about superhuman playing Pyrrha/Nightmare. Talk about gameplan.
A rude introduction telling us that our discussion only works on noobs most definitely won't net you a polite response from us.
I could've posed the same question to you:
What happens when Pyrrha face a Nightmare that doesn't use punishable moves, able to fuzzy your mid/low mixups, breaks throws consistently and hammers away at your guard gauge until it breaks?
---
Anyways, theory fighting like the above is going to be pointless.
Perhaps you can enlighten us on your Pyrrha gameplan and we'll see if Nightmare truly has no answer to it or the odds are really stacked against him.
A discussion is definitely possible, but both sides will need to be realistic about it and not assume it's a superhuman playing the character. After all, even top players succumb to throws, does the moves you deem stupid, eats slow lows etc.
In short, don't talk about superhuman playing Pyrrha/Nightmare. Talk about gameplan.
banes
[10] Knight
ur right, I apologize for the way I come off, if I hurt the pride of any NM players, please understand I am not in anyway faulting NM players for doing poorly against pyrrah, but namco for making this matchup unfair
well I would actually like to see this NM gameplay that you have mentioned tbh, every NM I ever play always use the unsafe shit, and doesn't rely on the safe stuff, and as soon as they do the safe stuff I can usually get in his face and low or throw, and I continue doing so until they start blocking low, in which case I can finally start doing my launchers, so this in a sense is the same gameplan I suggested that NM needs to rely on since I feel that a defensive player will block all the dmging mids, until you provoke them to blocking low (which in my opinion is a bad idea since thats when u leave yourself open to 50% mid mixup over 10-15 dmg low kick) the only difference tho is that pyrrah has semi-safe combo launchers, and NM combo launchers open him up to stabs, which is the main reason that I say its kind of unfair, NM likes to be aggressive with his moves, I imagine he can turtle, and that would probably be a viable strat too, I really would like to play these players though and see this strat in action
edit: I still re-iterate my point that all the strategy that has been discussed thus far are for BAD pyrrah moves, I realize its important to combat these scrub tactics because 90% of pyrrahs will be relying on these online (I know, I played quite a few), I just felt this conversation needed to move on to more advanced tactics, and possibly discussing if this matchup is as unfair as I say it is
edit more: I do hate theory fighting, I am in no way the best pyrrah, but I would really like to test out what you guys theorize, if there are any west coast players, please add me on PSN: banes49 is my screenname
well I would actually like to see this NM gameplay that you have mentioned tbh, every NM I ever play always use the unsafe shit, and doesn't rely on the safe stuff, and as soon as they do the safe stuff I can usually get in his face and low or throw, and I continue doing so until they start blocking low, in which case I can finally start doing my launchers, so this in a sense is the same gameplan I suggested that NM needs to rely on since I feel that a defensive player will block all the dmging mids, until you provoke them to blocking low (which in my opinion is a bad idea since thats when u leave yourself open to 50% mid mixup over 10-15 dmg low kick) the only difference tho is that pyrrah has semi-safe combo launchers, and NM combo launchers open him up to stabs, which is the main reason that I say its kind of unfair, NM likes to be aggressive with his moves, I imagine he can turtle, and that would probably be a viable strat too, I really would like to play these players though and see this strat in action
edit: I still re-iterate my point that all the strategy that has been discussed thus far are for BAD pyrrah moves, I realize its important to combat these scrub tactics because 90% of pyrrahs will be relying on these online (I know, I played quite a few), I just felt this conversation needed to move on to more advanced tactics, and possibly discussing if this matchup is as unfair as I say it is
edit more: I do hate theory fighting, I am in no way the best pyrrah, but I would really like to test out what you guys theorize, if there are any west coast players, please add me on PSN: banes49 is my screenname
Thermidor
[10] Knight
How can I handle the Omega whore she I can't seem to step her BB with out being hit but some weird hit box and her AA it's far enough to hit my back step.
KingAce
HERMITISM
NM vs Pyrrha should be a 4:6 match up in her favor. Lets not kid ourselves. However, you can't break all my grabs. And you eventually have to attack, and when you do you have to contend with NM's whiff punishment. And you can't seat back and block all day since you have to deal with guard bust. I respect the fact that pyrrha can punish a lot of what NM does, even more so with her CE.
banes
[10] Knight
Thank you, Im glad someone finally acknowledged the lack of balance in this matchup. Seems everyone was in self denial, or maybe they only played scrubby Pyrrah's online and were biased. Either way, when you face that Pyrrah in a tourney, you should be realistic about the matchup if you want to do well.
I agree its impossible to break every throw, but I just feel it SUCKS to have to rely on throws which is a 50/50, on top of the prior 50/50 of will they duck or stand ( a 50/50 I don't personally subscribe to, ducking is for suckas). I personally don't have that much of a problem with whiffing with NM, but I also try to stay in 2A range, and it seems he always has all this forward momentum towards me, which makes it easier. I actually suffer the most when I am outside of 3B range, which makes me wonder if the best strategy for NM against Pyrrah would be a keep away game somewhat similar to Astaroth in sc5 playstyle, with throws mixed in when they get in your face. Obviously, this is just for the matchup of Pyrrah, as he can steam roll over most with his unsafe combo starters with little fear of painful punishment.
As for the guard crush I keep hearing that mentioned, I honestly never fear being guard crushed by NM. Yes he can take off 50% with a guard crush, but after you land that guard crush, what are you gonna do for the next 50%? Guard crush me again in the same round? Perhaps there is a particular safe moveset he can rely on to guardcrush, but I am not familiar enough with NM to know if he does have a decent amount of moves to do so with. I noticed his flashy blue moves are a high or a very slow low. Of course I am sure he has other moves that are good for guard breaking, but are they good enough?
Can someone please test this stuff out with me? banes49 = psn
Yes!! 9K this is what I want to hear, why is this good?
I agree its impossible to break every throw, but I just feel it SUCKS to have to rely on throws which is a 50/50, on top of the prior 50/50 of will they duck or stand ( a 50/50 I don't personally subscribe to, ducking is for suckas). I personally don't have that much of a problem with whiffing with NM, but I also try to stay in 2A range, and it seems he always has all this forward momentum towards me, which makes it easier. I actually suffer the most when I am outside of 3B range, which makes me wonder if the best strategy for NM against Pyrrah would be a keep away game somewhat similar to Astaroth in sc5 playstyle, with throws mixed in when they get in your face. Obviously, this is just for the matchup of Pyrrah, as he can steam roll over most with his unsafe combo starters with little fear of painful punishment.
As for the guard crush I keep hearing that mentioned, I honestly never fear being guard crushed by NM. Yes he can take off 50% with a guard crush, but after you land that guard crush, what are you gonna do for the next 50%? Guard crush me again in the same round? Perhaps there is a particular safe moveset he can rely on to guardcrush, but I am not familiar enough with NM to know if he does have a decent amount of moves to do so with. I noticed his flashy blue moves are a high or a very slow low. Of course I am sure he has other moves that are good for guard breaking, but are they good enough?
Can someone please test this stuff out with me? banes49 = psn
Yes!! 9K this is what I want to hear, why is this good?
KingAce
HERMITISM
If I forget to message you it's xKINGxACEx=PSN. We can talk theory all day, but I like to be practical about how the game works.
banes
[10] Knight
totally agree, we need to test some of this shit out in the field, sadly I should be practicing matchups I feel weaker against, but here I am lol, its mostly cuz I have a friend who plays nm and I would like to help him out when he plays against me
Engared
[10] Knight
From my experience here its an at worse 5:5 even split. And that's being kind.
Omega Pyrrha on the other hand is 6:4 in her favor and is one of NM's worst match-ups. Pyrrha just doesn't punish as hard and is much easier to distance and her step punishers don't lead to you losing half your life all the time.
banes
[10] Knight
no clue mang? I always heard omega is worse than pyrrah but I don't know much about omega either tbh, can you record some of your matches with your pyrrah friends enraged?
Engared
[10] Knight
You can just play DIME. I played against 4 pyrrhas on Sunday at the Singapore Nats and I didn't lose a match, 4th time playing against human opponents in SC5 as well. I also felt I left a lot on the table with block punish, step punish and general defense etc. Wasn't in the competition cause I was the Emcee.
banes
[10] Knight
lol wtf 4th time playing agasint human opponents? u dont even have that much experience and u r talking with such confidence about the matchup? u r starting to lose credibility in my book, maybe there is some truth to what u say, but this requires an experienced player to demonstrate this, not someone who thinks beating up computers pyrrah is ez
banes
[10] Knight
lol i tried to add u and it said u had exceeded the maximum amount of friend invites possible, y u so popular 4
Engared
[10] Knight
I'm an old school player from SC4 (not that old school but meh older school than alot of these whipper snappers), I have been around longer than you by the sound of things. Was one of tournament organizer in Melbourne, Australia and Singapore. I have a good record in national tournaments and ranbats so i generally know what I am talking about.
NM hasn't changed that much and Pyrrha's range is very similar to Sophie's or even worse. Her basic nature is her biggest downfall. It was only the 4th time playing SC5 and already I knew most of her tricks. As i said I left a lot of things on the table but I whiff punished correctly, played defensive, crushed her guard and let Pyrrah come to me. Then when on KD I applied either guard pressure or maximum reward/risk Mid/Throw/Low.
And that's the way IMO the match-up should be played. Of course there are better players out there than the Pyrrhas i fought. But there are also better Nightmares out there.
On the theory side: Pyrrha has great punishment, great damage, a strong AA and a strong BB. But her range is only moderate at best, lacks many good KD lows and does not have great priority going forward nor is her tech crouch anything to write home about (compared with Natsu for example). Nightmare on the other hand is unsafe, generally slow and lacks any meaningful tech crouch. What he makes up for is absurd whiff punish damage, great guard breaking abilities, great step killers, good throw range, generally long range coupled to one of the best spacing based moveset and backsteps in the game.
They basically cancel each other out so I am calling the match-up fair. If two superhumans played each other to the best of their ability and fought 10 matches against each other using those two characters, in my opinion the match-up would be 5 and 5. At worse for Nightmare it would be a 4.5/5.5 in Pyrrha's favor.
I play Pyrrha as a secondary by the way so I have some knowledge of how the character operates (I mained her during the beta, before Nightmare was announced). I should play her more but I find that my teammates start giving me dirty looks when I do.
For reference how the match-up is played in a tournament setting, go watch the Final Round stream and watch Ramon (the best Pyrrha in the world arguably) vs Omega (one of the two best Nightmares in the world).
DeathInMyEyes
DIME
Haha, no clue. I remember deleted a crapload of people so things like this wouldn't happen. I'll send you a request later on today.
banes
[10] Knight
are you really gonna compare how long we been in it? why do you always have to make such bold assumptions? do you realize assumptions make an ass out of you and me? i have been playing since soul edge, competing since sc1, and got really into the tourney scene in sc2, if your from singapore, then ask your buddies who played sc2 about "banana" when they came to the US for evo2k3, i also organized various tournaments and meets for sc4, this is pointless tho, does me being in the scene for a lot longer than you prove that i am right about pyrrah having the upperhand? no. so stop bringing up stupid points that add nothing to the discussion
dude pyrrah has some awesome tech crouching moves, the majority of the moves i do TC, why do i get the feeling i am just falling for the tech trap of a troll? i really should know better than to fall for that, well have your laugh at me then, the serious NM players can continue the actual discussion
Engared
[10] Knight
Well you did come in here with an extremely bold assumption "feel liek every time i face a NM in ranked its like getting the 1up mushroom in mario" (oh so basically our character is free, no matter who is playing our character?) in our forums then proceed to talk bout a theoretically super Pyrrha who is unbeatable then disagree with me when I outline a proven plan on how to beat this character with this completely arrogant sounding reply : "i disagree with the rest, flapjack is still just a throw and i can still guess right to break it, 1K does NOT make me block low, I would sooner eat 20 1K than one mid launcher from NM, there is no sense in ducking to avoid a 1K, and I would like to see u try to consistently keep me at max range 1A "
And you have the nerve to call me not a serious Nightmare player? Wow just wow man. I'm not going to get into personal attacks now but the way you sounded, the arrogance just reeks of an inexperienced player who beats noob Nightmares all day online. I've edited my previous post and put the theory in there. Most probably you are going to disagree with it but whatever.
banes
[10] Knight
I cant even tell if you are being serious or just trying to troll me more, anyway i will give you the benefit of the doubt
how exactly is "feel liek every time i face a NM in ranked its like getting the 1up mushroom in mario" an assumption? am i assuming how i feel? am i stating that every nm i ever face and will ever face will be an easy match? NO there is no assumption in how i feel because i KNOW exactly how i feel, and I am NOT stating that every NM will be ez, but it sure feels very rewarding when in ranked I see that I am up against a NM because i have won almost every single time against NMs in ranked, has every single one of them been noobs? maybe! yet still it FEEEELS to me that the matchup is rather imbalanced, am i assuming? NO i am stating how things appear to me, i do not need to assume how things appear to me, i KNOW exactly how i interpret them, there is no assumption involved here, why do we continue to waste our energy on pointless topics?
your proven plan to me didnt sounded to me like it would work, i am free to disagree if i choose to am i not? and i outlined the reasons why i felt that way, is this not a discussion? am i supposed to keep my opinions to myself if they (heaven forbid) run contrary to your "PROVEN PLAN" for fear that you might accuse me of "arrogance" ? i am really far more interested in what NM players solutions to pyrrah are than what a sole NM player thinks of me
anyway, i am not an inexperienced player, despite how you may interpret what i say, u want me to take you as a nightmare player serious? then have a serious discussion without personal attacks and bold faced assumptions about me or my credibility, i am not the subject of this discussion, and when you continually rely on these crutches, it makes your points seem less credible, and dont get butt hurt if i disagree
this is really a waste of this thread, so feel free to respond to any of my points, or attack my experience in this game, skill level as a player, or personal character, all things you have absolutely no clue about, but somehow find yourself an expert on, i will only respond to points made about NM vs pyrrah