Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

youngfox said:
22k great for opponents who excessively step though. so if you have an opponent who just constantly step its gd to toss it out there.
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It's not great for opponents who will step into a TC move. Also, 22k seems to have the opposite of phantom range. A few times I've had Raph's foot like go through people.

Otherwise it's an excellent move with good damage potential.
 
well thats the 50/50 of SC5 if you step and do any attack your hit box usually is bigger than just stepping so at that point some verticals will actually stop step. So at 2k range its either 22b/33kBE or 22k to stop those who step and TC
 
yep, Its the 50/50 of SC5

EDIT: a quick test scenario to explain what i mean. I have pyraah as P2 and set to block then do 22b. I force her to block 66A+B and then do A+BA, it beats out her 22B
 
This doesn't make sense. Even if the training dummy doesn't buffer the 22B into her block animation she should still outright beat your attack. 66A+B is -4. Unless something goes off axis you should get your head kicked in for this. I'll try this out later to see what happens.
 
i believe it comes downs to the forced QS animation we were discussing earlier lol. After blocking 66A+B you see pyraah's QS animation, then 22B comes out and she runs into A+B
 
After 66A+B on block 8A+B will GI generic 2As. I prefer 4A+B for that though. 8A+B serves best as a stepkiller.
 
Youngfox has a point. QS adds frames to 22B. So even if the opponent is at a slight disadvantage, they're sacrificing additional frames for evasion. Normally this works particularly well against Raph because a lot of his good options are a certain speed (say primarily i12, i16 and i20). A raph who recognizes the setup, and does a slow or delayed vertical will get the CH becuase the impact frame of Raph will be approximate to when Pyrrha stops her QS and begins her own 22B.

As a Raph player, you must be patient and observe your opponent's favourite bait string-into-QS launcher. An example would be Raph's own 2K on hit and QS into 22B/33KB.

-Math-frame craft below
For example, Pyrrha does 3A+B and you block it. More often than not, a mid-high level pyrrha will immediately buffer QS 22B or 22A.

With this knowledge, you will choose your slow fat vertical to CH pyrrha. She's at -6 from a blocked 3A+B, adds 10 frames for the QS, then add 16 frames for 22B.

Raph lacks a high-damage vertical that is both slow enough to have later vertical alignment frames, but also fast enough to stuff any attempts from Pyrrha to outright disrespect Raph's options with her own interrupt.

SC4's A+BA was awesome at this because of how the move actually realigned during the 2nd hit and more importantly the 3rd hit. SC5 does not have this feature so A+BA is not nearly as strong as it is before. If i were to make a recommendation, a slight dash into 66(B) would be optimal.

If this were a Raph mirror, and he tags me with 1A or 2K / or I block a 66A+B or wrA i'll try to option select with 66B.
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taffertier said:
What attacks does 8 A+B GI? I cant seem to find a point in a match where it would come into play.
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All non-low horizontals and vertical thrusts (yes pyrrha and pat's 236B)
 
youngfox said:
i believe it comes downs to the forced QS animation we were discussing earlier lol. After blocking 66A+B you see pyraah's QS animation, then 22B comes out and she runs into A+B
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This is still just a frame math issue tho' not a change in hit boxes per se. You can like do a 66A+B, and thrust Pyrrha out of her 22B. You can also like, make Pyrrha block a 6B or an A or a 3K and then 3B her out of the 22B. If you do a 22B after the 66A+B Pyrrha clubs your head in the face. I am grateful for the ideas you've given me now due to the new QS lag. I guess I ought to be turning it into an advantage for me instead of a penalty.
 
Bojack im generally a defensive player so i use this info mostly to know after what blocked safe moves i can toss in a 3(B) for pressure without fear of being stepped. Now in this situation its a matter of frames but i just used that scenario to make an overall point. If Pyraahs just continues holding 2 and waits for you to whiff then you get wrecked but if instead of A+B you do 22k you can counter that for around 1/3 a health bar. This is usually the mix up that happens at mid range and why i find value in 22k.

EDIT: Taffertier i find 8A+B to be gd as a mix up after landing 11k for those opponents who know you are neutral. Im also am looking into it as a way to reverse mixup for if you get hit by say natsu's aabbb or Opyraah's lil hop kick low
 
Very worthwhile discussion among you gentleman and I certainly do not qualify to enter directly into Wuht's realm. I will say that 22K is definitely very underrated. It has it's uses despite being a slow mid-range high roundhouse. Raph's 22B is one of his best anti-step tools, well known to other players. If they begin to read and block or counter this move more often, why not try 22K? Since this move is rarely used among most Raph players, it can punish people who step too much acts a great surprise opener for decent combo damage on CH.
 
Fendante said:
Very worthwhile discussion among you gentleman and I certainly do not qualify to enter directly into Wuht's realm. I will say that 22K is definitely very underrated. It has it's uses despite being a slow mid-range high roundhouse. Raph's 22B is one of his best anti-step tools, well known to other players. If they begin to read and block or counter this move more often, why not try 22K? Since this move is rarely used among most Raph players, it can punish people who step too much acts a great surprise opener for decent combo damage on CH.
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Wait, what? 22B is anti-step?
 
22B actually does serve as an antistep if your opponent has a habit of doing step attacks. Step in the same direction as them and chances are it'll beat out their step attack.

I know this because I get hit out of 22AB and 33B an annoying number of times by 22B.
 
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