Raphael Top Ten Moves

woa woa woa, back up. 22B hits step on a side?

This changes everything.

... no srsly, I tried to use it to hit things on the left side, but it never has. It's linear for me. Rage?


But I gotta call out that point about 1A, though. We just saw a vid in the vid thread where 1A was stepped to Raph's right. SuPhy's game against Xephukai. I made a comment, "that 1A being stepped was heartbreaking." So, it was left-stepped. So you can left-step it.
Sadface.

Mind you, I did say "Where the Hell do I put 1A?" This means I figured that 1A is good and had to go there. However, I believe in those first five moves as absolute, and I wouldn't be saying anything meaningful if I didn't say something about 66A. I'm already cheating with my ninth line there.
I guess A has only a niche use, even if it comes up a lot? I guess 3B only shows up when things start going right anyway? .... *cough* in the end, this is only a format to create discussion, I doubt truth could be contained in a literal top ten list.

I suppose the move I set up against an opponent that lets me "do whatever I want" is a perfectly spaced 1A. Zoning ftmfw.


And yeah, I do not have the VE B:B JF... though I wonder about that JF. It's so odd that he has it, considering the conditions for landing VE B. Me not knowing the JF has made me treat 22B differently (as in, actually doing 22B).
I am getting the CH combo though. Make no mistake. I don't think I understand what it means to fish for a CH - I don't think I 'get' how you make people make mistakes in this game in the big picture - but I am getting that CH combo, and intending it. When I consciously 22 knowing I will CH against my normal 22B, it's a very good feeling. And using 22B while scoffing if they think to make a profit against it with a launcher... it seems like a good use for it.


*~*~*~
Yeah obviously with highs you want to not represent lows to reward twitch crouching already, or they'll never take them. It's just interesting to me that he has that decently ranged interrupt WS K, by existing it makes the opponent have to actually make a decision if they GI, and... it's just a life-saver sometimes.

EDIT: I HATE 8B. Sure, it looks sexy, but then you think, if you just did 11B, you'd have got the same result, and recovered in crouch, and it would have been safe (and done tons of SG damage if), and hits grounded, and some of the time has wtflolhitbox moments that are in your favour.
And yet I still do 8B. That's why I hate it. >_>
 
I do love 4K and honestly, I use a lot more than those top 10. But so far, I've settled down on those as Raph's Top 10.
 
i see.
Well against ppl who really knows how to handle raph with their top tier >_> 4K is the move i use most .-.
4K
2K
AB
A4K/3K for pushback

some 6K
but mostly 4K i could say its the only move that prevents raph to be useless in many matchups.
 
Shen Rii: I'd love to see some videos of your Raph. I dont really understand many moves on your list.
ex: WS A, 2B, BB, 6BB or 1K.

I definitely find moves like 236B, 44AB, 44B , 4B and of course 22B more useful and worth top 10.
 
I'm curious about your approval of 2B. It's not even + on CH, which means you you may not neccesarily win out with follow through 6BB or 2A as your FC options. I can understand it's usage against a TAS spamming sophie or lizardman though, but otherwise imo ending in FC (post hit or block) severely limits your options (as opposed to granting you more options)
 
Belial: I'll need to re-record. This set is developed from after my Japan trip. You can find my Japan vids, but it's gonna disappoint.
Also, I do use the moves you mentioned (still trying to get 22B JF down).

WuHT: If anything, I thing Raph's FC game is deadly. Aside from his FC and WS attacks, he still has access to his main arsenal of moves (regrettably not A+B). 2B, at -8 or 0, is a great bait.

On a side note, I need tips against Amy (should I create another thread for this?).
 
go for it, more discussion is better.

Anyways, what i'm hinting at is : @ FC raph does not have access to 3B as easily as if he was standing. I suppose wrB is just 1 frame slower, less damage on NH, does more damage on CH, and tracks to one side.
 
WuHT said:
I'm curious about your approval of 2B. It's not even + on CH, which means you you may not neccesarily win out with follow through 6BB or 2A as your FC options. I can understand it's usage against a TAS spamming sophie or lizardman though, but otherwise imo ending in FC (post hit or block) severely limits your options (as opposed to granting you more options)
Click to expand...

My opinion on 2B
-Great range
-hits grounded/superTC (sucks it voldo)
-stops lot of pushback mixups other character cannot answer
-stops many stances
-good pushback

at the right range enable FC3B
At other 2a or FC2B

I'd really struggle to choose 10 of raph moves...being linear he needs almost all his stuff to survive and fave varies on the matchup...
Against mitsu for ex. even 4A becomes a nice move.

Against amy whats the problem?
i've still to find an amy that does not go for the pressure game, in that case there is not much to think, just defend, a thing that raph is good at.....matchup is inher favour due to frames and damage, but its much better than facing IVY @__@ that can destroy raph without effort being stronger at long range and even more at short, keeping at mid is quite difficult.
You just have to rely on 2K, 4K, 2A -____-
I'd really need help on this matchup cause ivy can step G the hell out of raph and outdamage him heavily.
 
Time to contribute instead of just lurking.

Considering the overall effectiveness on the ability for raph to do his thing (in particular: my playstyle).

These moves are core to raph to maintain pressure, being solid in speed, range, and frame data while being annoy.
1. 3B ~ This move can almost be treated as + on block. Just too many options on hit and block makes raph pesky. Decent damage on NH, one of the best combination of speed and range, affects SG properly, pushes opponent far away, and ultimately forces your opponent to react.
2. A ~ This move is also really solid on block, giving you many options (with a low or step kill 2nd hit) Does mediocre NH damage and is high, but otherwise can provoke your opponent to react.



(intentional gap)



These are raph's "heavy" damage dealers on NH, and all of them can maintain momentum somewhat when blocked (22B>4B>>44B in terms of flexibility on block).
3. 44B ~ 60 damage NH, makes interrupting against raph with short range, fast, single hit moves a risk. Having this in his arsenal allows him to be more annoying, without even throwing it out.
4. 4B ~ 60 damage NH, one of the most reliable tech crouches in the game with respectable range, and on block can provoke an opponent to react.
5. 22B ~ 60 damage NH, very good range for a NH "launcher", and when blocked can be treated as + on block (at certain range).

(intentional smaller gap)

6. prepBB ~ The threat of this quick string really fuels the raph pressure engine by maintaining momentum. PrepBBB being a combo on CH, four opportunities to end the attack string, and ability to re-enter prep or VE make this a move that all opponents have to consider and react accordingly.
7. 6BB ~ similar properties to prepBB, except it's accessible from no stance, (great for hosing certain "safe-due-to-pushback" moves, but is noticeably more readable when blocked (or on hit). Hence why I deem it slightly worse.
8. wrB ~ raph's semi-tracking, CH fishing, safe-due-to-pushback move. This move has properties that – save for if it stunned on NH – would be in the broken move pile that almost all top tier characters have. Just sometimes on NH I felt compelled to followup, unlike the rest of the moves above. On block it definately is a momentum killer, unlike the rest of the moves above.
9. 236B ~ Raph's signature lunge is tremendous range, and bufferable from crouch. If you're comfortable fighting up close with raph (ie your list includes 2A, 3K, A+BA, 44B) then this move should be ranked higher. Killing momentum on block is a downer for me.
(small gap)
10. 1A ~ 10th spot is a tossup between many of raph's "situational" moves (because he's a character of options, not some 5 move spammer). This could change from match to match, but I feel that an unreadable mid-long range poke that's manageably (-) on hit helps raph's gameplay simply by being pesky and to beat those that are content to block or step-block. Doing less than 20 damage and being - even on CH kinda sucks though

I'd like to mention that 8K, 2A, 2K, 66A+B, A+BA could jump up and take that coveted 10th spot. Basically anymove that gets them to stop stepping will jump in value mainly due to necessity. 22K, 22A, 2A 44AB would all look great with raph.. but not so much other characters



Side ranking : Raph's best low moves (start as a low)
1A
2K : a shorter ranged 1A, slightly faster but + on CH.

1K
33B
fc3B

prepK



1BB (on CH this move can bait 44B opportunities, and this should be noted because raph's CH potential is not that stronger than his NH).
 
6BB isnt good
prep BB isnt good
A~ isnt even close to being good.

^
makes all your other statements untrustworthy
 
no hard feelings taken. Just saying thats what works for me. Is that "good" in terms of raph's moves or good in terms of moves in general ?
 
Those moves, except A are all _okay_. A is just bad. AB isnt worth the risk , AA is even worse than AB. I think there are FAR better moves to make top 10.
I hate the idea of TOP 10, since you can never cover all important stuff, but if I were to make one

22_88B
4B
3B
WS B
A+B,A
44K
66A+B
236B
44B
6K
 
A, 4K (step) or A,3K (duck) or AB
That can be used imho....i mean probably opponent will be able to block A3K but prevent him to Attack after blocked A.
A has long blockstun, but not enough to counter with FCA i think and 3K provide some pushback needed as well as remember opponent he cannot mindlessly crouch.
All the thing enables AB to be a good move.
Maybe i am wrong still testing.

Is the same thing i was saying about 44K last year >___> went unnoticed where all were praising 9K, now 44K enters many top10 ._.

3B is far from being + on block...(blockstun), but is almost safe, but i don't get why an i16 punisher (prepBB) with good range should be bad...
 
Its pretty obvious to anybody who has a brain, that advancing, TJ, safe, force TC on block, damaging, semi-tracking mid is GOOD.

It is also obvious that steppable, undamaging high moves suck balls.

Please choose which description fits AB.
 
Belial said:
Its pretty obvious to anybody who has a brain, that advancing, TJ, safe, force TC on block, damaging, semi-tracking mid is GOOD.

It is also obvious that steppable, undamaging high moves suck balls.

Please choose which description fits AB.
Click to expand...

AB is not steppable >.> cause if they do they just lose advantage.
The point is that reacting to AB in order to force a whiff, needs prediction, but if you do that you just lose advantage.
Basically A on blocks becomes +9 if you step on prediction.....

If you say they step on prediction the A command, is the reason i lately play with 4K as my most used move >_> (huge advantage on hit for just 14 frames) u just stop them in place with it and teach them to not step without a reason (instead if they try to step attack u can use 88K for huge damage)...works with most character except IVY >__> for that i'm asking help on that matcup.

And 9K is also force crouch, advancing and tech jump...the point is that 44K advance last frames making it tricky to hit where 9K from the beginning....aside from knockdown and 2B combo.

The strange thing is that 44K jumps over most TC .-. instead of hitting. but has a quick recover at least.
 
Belial said:
Its pretty obvious to anybody who has a brain, that advancing, TJ, safe, force TC on block, damaging, semi-tracking mid is GOOD.
Click to expand...

44K has a lot of things I like except for the advancing part. I feel like I'm eating an unneccesary mixup at close range that i'm fighting hard to avoid. The thing a lot of wrB's are easier to step up close though.

darkfender said:
3B is far from being + on block...(blockstun), but is almost safe, but i don't get why an i16 punisher (prepBB) with good range should be bad...
Click to expand...

If the opponent has to step after blocking a 3B, how isnt' that like + on block ? I didnt' mean the raw frames, but how you can make your opponent respond if you connect with 3B on block.
 
Gentlemen, please be gentle.

3(B)~Prep G: if the opponent does a small step, Raph is at about -10. Raph is at about -4.
3B: if the opponent does a small step, Raph is at about 0. A big step, Raph is at about +6.
I'm not putting absolute numbers because it's really dependent on input speed and I'm not really good with that but that's the average I got.
 
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