Raphael Top Ten Moves

prep..delayedB you just hit stepping opponent XD (does not work at closerange)
3B opponent steps raph is -3 and not +0

and in that case isn't seaA better on weak side? (afaik it tracks on weak side despite the animation seems the opposite, things fixed in SC4BD and is TC for the whole animation)
 
lately play with 4K
I see you enjoy spamming steppable highs. I'm going to give you the best advice you will ever get on this SA, it will help you not only against Ivy, but will dramatically improve your performance against other characters - DO NOT use steppable high moves unless it deals damage and has a bunch of nice properties. Regardless if you think its not actually steppable or steppable under circumstances.

This is a simple matter of risk reward. your initial goal is to force a certain kind of mixup on your opponent. When you pile extra options one on top of the other you only disperse your future reward, b/c every time you do a move you _take a risk_.

Concentrate on making up for your character weaknesses with spacing and skill, if you go down the road of spamming dubious 20dmg-moves you will never get better.

3(B)~Prep G: if the opponent does a small step, Raph is at about -10. Raph is at about -4.
3B: if the opponent does a small step, Raph is at about 0. A big step, Raph is at about +6.

I dont get the math behind those and other numbers in this thread. Could you elaborate?
 
Are you saying 4K is steppable?
are we talking of the same move?
4K is the only reliable antistep kick i found...well i could assume that ppl who can actually step all raph stuff for no reason cannot step 4K but it seems absurd, the animation and all make me thinks 4K tracks well at least on weak side.....
U know cassy TS/TJ spam? 4K stops it
Same for ivy's step and X TS moves

I may be wrong but i need proofs cause actually 4K prevented step of all ppl i played with.

Math:
3B -14 subtracts 11 of step u get -3 don't get how they think is +0 .-.
 
darkfender: Alright, I'll take your word for it, my input isn't exactly top notch. I'm not doing math here, I tested it on Training Mode. There's no need to question my Math skills.

Belial: No Math involved. All I did was record command and tested the results of varying Step. Block the 3B, step, then see what moves trade.
 
not all step takes about 11 frames, seeing as how sometimes you opt for a deeper step, and sometimes you opt for a shallower one. 11 frames sounds pretty shallow, and - if they attack out of step - may eat the hits on prepBB.
 
Shortest step possible is 11 frames. step itself start with 6th frame (i.e you cant step i 15 move at -10 at all), 11th frame is the earliest moment where block is possible. You can do this by quick tapping step~G (almost slide). Otherwise step has much more vulnerability.
 
Belial: Ah, I didn't know about that. Thanks.
I tried doing a visible yet, minimal step. With this slide input Step~G, I expect it to be a really small step.
 
I think I did a step study on old forums (Caliburforum) and also a step study for Raphael with move tracking listings and all. Here's a repost if someone's interested.

I've done some testing raph vs raph.As I mentioned before I measure move tracking ability by
a) precise timing
b) continuous movement
I've described the reasons above.

x means not steppable
y means steppable

Move SSR/8wrR/SSL/8wrL

3B YXYY = will only track 8wr right
BB YXYY = will only track 8wr right
44AB XXXX = produces fairly weird results, if normal SSR is used late (not SSR~G) the B-part will wiff, leaving raph BT to the opponent at a disadvantage, however doesnt seem to give a free hit. Couldnt make first hit wiff, but that happened to me on 8wrR in actual matches.
44B ???Y = definitely 8wrunnable to the left. in other cases if step happens before auto-GI animation (purple stuff) - 44B will track very well. if step occurs after auto-GI it will not track at all.
AB ???? = first hit is steppable eiter side, however stepping to the right is a bit difficult. second hit will track occasionally to the left.
AA - XXXX = first hit is steppable either side (see above), second will always track.
44K - YXYY = will track 8wrR
2K - YXYY = will track 8wrR
1K YXYX - will track 8wr both sides.
6A - XXYX - only steppable to the left with precise timing (!)
66A YYYY - lol ZERO tracking (only included it here b/c it looks stupid)
66B - YYYX - very good tracking vs 8wrL
3A - YYXX - is not steppable to the left (!)
4K - YXYX - tracks 8wr both
33_99K - YXYY = only catches 8wrR
A+B (2nd hit) - XXXX = second hit has 100% tracking
WS B - YYXX = not steppable to the left
WS A - XXXX = not steppable

I've tested all other linear looking moves (6BB, 22B etc) they dont track.

Some of data is a little outdated, for ex 66A tracks on tip range etc.
 
Some stuff track from time to time b/c of adv not enough, or incorrect placing. Other moves have weird hitbox, some characters have weird hitbox. For example Amy 6BB has decent tracking, so it will always track when amy is at least at +3 adv. At +2( like another 6BB on hit) it can be stepped with precise timing. to figure out if you can input step correctly I recommend this situation - Amy 6BB hit 6BB - try to step to the right. Try until you can always step it, then you have nailed the aproximate timing for correct sidestep, it is easier to apply to other situations after.
 
Never thought Raph was this complicated. For me Raph's best moves are his punishers, and the one's that give you enough frames to sidestep. Stuff like AB and BB are also good for interrupting rushins. I have many people run into 6B+K. When I sidestep people worry about two things, 33KB and grabs. I also use 33KB to interrupt certain rushins and maybe grab attempts.
 
I hate the idea of TOP 10, since you can never cover all important stuff, but if I were to make one

22_88B
4B
3B
WS B
A+B,A
44K
66A+B
236B
44B
6K

Very interesting list. Combined with your remarks about the way to win in general, it's a lot to think about. I have an impression of your Raph keeping opponents at a distance consistently... and, I think, of concerning yourself with reading the movements toward or away from you, to get your pressure.
But let's suppose I just assume you're right about 6BB and :A: as I experiment with this, trying to imitate you. What I can't understand right now is the meaning of putting these three moves:
22B
3B
WS B

in that order. I just can't imagine, although 22:(B): is Raph's best move, how to make it 'matter' the most, how to use it more often than WS B. Could you, please explain a bit more?

Separately, from what you said, I expected you to put 44K high. I believe 44K is good, I think it's a cornerstone, but I didn't expect A+B even higher. So if you say 44K is "GOOD", what is A+B?
 
Although I did try to put it descending in order of importance yet I didnt sweat over wheather one is better than the other. I dislike idea of TOP 10 in the first place, you know.

As much as you're wondering about 22B I'm wondering why you wonder. Isnt it obvious that its probably Raphael's best move?

A+B is a really good move, many people here have already noticed that. I still dont use it all too much in my game (thats b/c I hardly play Raph) but Edge does. I will try to capture more of his Raphael next time we play. I dont know if its better than 44K, really hard to tell.
 
A+B is one of few raph tracking moves....
but is quite slow :/

my question is what you use if you opponent begins to poke you with a -4 on block mid and then just step G?
Expecially lets say if his CF game is better than raph's.
 
Best of Raph's game comes from reverse-mixup, which suggest alot of spacing both in and out. Actually almost every SA here has some kind of complaints about their character steppablility. Just learn to move around to make your moves tracking. If your opponent loves to step
1) Dash throw (also opens up for 8wr mid for mix up)
2) Backdash, 3B, backdash step 22_88B anything that allows variation on guard
3) 44AB for SG and FC

Step~G is not an ultimate defence. It is a kind of progressive defence, to deal with it you merely have to adjust your offencive options accordingly.
Lets take a look.
Your opp is at -4, then does a step~G. + 11 frames.
You also do a step (+11 frames) and atack/throw - you are still at +4, but that step doesnt only align you properly towards your opponent, but also, in case he tries to interrupt your moving in your step will cover that too.
It would be easier to understand for tekken players, where movement and reverse-mixup is a major part of the game.

Movement has been done more difficult in SC4 than in SC3 and 2, but it is still a very important part of the game. To me, personally, problem of character steppablility is almost unexistant. The biggest trouble I have with raph steppability is late game, when opp is low on life and there are no safe pokes to finish him off. Other than that I hardly feel Raph's steppability, at least not to the extent people are talking about.
 
i have that problem only against Ivy :/
its hard to explain cause i don't know ivy's commands :<

For sure its very hard to space against her....
 
darkfender: Cant help you untill you post when and where you have the problems (learn the commands), but as experience tells - once you do - you will already find an answer.
 
Although I did try to put it descending in order of importance yet I didnt sweat over wheather one is better than the other. I dislike idea of TOP 10 in the first place, you know.

As much as you're wondering about 22B I'm wondering why you wonder. Isnt it obvious that its probably Raphael's best move?

Hmm.. what I mean is this: While, yes, 22B is the best Mid move I could possibly want to hit my opponent with, for its natural combo and for its traits that reduce risk, what I am thinking about is -how- to get the move into a game. There are spots that don't suit a given move, right? What I want to understand is, (1) at large, how does one -make it so that- 22B can come out and shine, what does strategy to maximize the relevance of 22B look like; and (2), a specific confusion, how do you consider the risk of 22B vs. doing WS B, which can be attempted in similar conditions and is not strictly worse, where my (albeit newbie) experience is that WS B saves my ass but 22B feels more dangerous?
My question is, yes, I believe you that 22B should be in my any Raph game more, so -what is it about what you are doing- that let's that happen, when for me, it feels wrong, dangerous, and telegraphed, and I get less out of it than getting my WS Bs blocked at least for space?

A+B is a really good move, many people here have already noticed that. I still dont use it all too much in my game (thats b/c I hardly play Raph) but Edge does. I will try to capture more of his Raphael next time we play. I dont know if its better than 44K, really hard to tell.
More Raph vids of any kind would be fantastic. :\
Oh that reminds me, there may be vids of me up, if there is a lot of luck next week. If I am still using panic 22B (nerves, etc.) you may see my perspective on the move.


When I consider the question 'top ten moves', I think of "importance" not 'goodness'. So in constructing my list (it is different from what I would give now, already), I would ask, I think, what move can't I do without? How crucial is the move; not, exactly, how much can I find a spot to use it, and not 'how good is this'. One move I find critical is WS B. I think a Raph I can play would be unrecognizably different if I hadn't WS B. Meanwhile, if 22B were gone, Raph would be worse, but I would say he "just" loses his best move, and becomes as good as his next best one. I could contrast 6K and 44K the same way. 44K makes Raphael great. But 6K is always so reliable. I can use 6K more. But I would -want to set up- something more than 6K.
Is all of this crazy-wrong?
 
Mandritti: There are vids of mine and Edge's raph, as far as Raph's videos go, I wouldnt call that perfect, of course, but its the best there are.
COP DT7 is a french Raph player, but his style is, I think, completely wrong. Kura's Raph is interesting, but I dont think he plays Raph a lot, so its far from perfect also.

Regarding your statements - good = important. In russia there is a joke: "you dont know how to cook it right" - i.e. "- I dont like cats... - Thats b/c you dont know how to cook it right!", which essetially means you're not doing something the right way, right place. If you find worse moves more important than better ones - you dont know how to cook it right ;)

Its easy to discard good stuff, it really is. Sometimes you just play and your opponent counter it always. You have better luck with other moves and switch to those. Its easy to lose the right way. So you _need_ some kind of theory to compare stuff, to know whats good and whats not. There were countless times where, for example , my stance play with mitsurugi seemed hopeless. People adjusted, punished it, I thought - "this is not good afterall" or "I cannot rely on this as a solid strat, I need more turtle/defence" etc. But then I got home, played everything over in my head, and questioned myself "Is this really BAD, or is it just me, who cannot make it GOOD?" I pondered over many, many things like that. And I always searched for a way to make something good. I never gave up until it was obvious that is worse than other stuff, or cannot be set up in a way that makes this move great. To make a point I even used math which some people called me crazy for (I heard "this is only a game" or "get a life" so many times...).

To cut long story short - generally if something deals a lot of damage it is really good. If that doesnt work for you, make it work, find a way. Look for opportunities instead of excuses and you will soon challenge the best.
 
I... get it. Yeah. Thanks.
It leads into a different kind of question, but as best I can plan it, I'd have to pose it carefully with some math, which will take some time; so, I just wanted to say I understood what you said for now, and thank you. (I can edit this post if no one says anything by then.)
 
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