andur
[10] Knight
Seconded, 2B+K vs Kilik sounds gold.
And 4B not being aGI'ed by C2A/C3A, awesome. That auto impact is so annoying.
And 4B not being aGI'ed by C2A/C3A, awesome. That auto impact is so annoying.
She's Bossy: General Cassie strat and matchups
- Thread starter 1der
- Start date
Lags
[08] Mercenary
Match Up Analysis
Cass vs. Hilde
Expanding upon my previous find regarding 4B, I believe I've basically narrowed down the movelist for this matchup so that the aGI/TC properties on C3A can essentially be ignored. I have also culled moves that I think will blantantly get you killed due to safety even if they technically work against C3A (such as 8K) and moves that have the second hit work against C3A but the first does not (such as 2BB or 3AK).
Noteworthy (non-kicks):
1A
4B
FC 1B
66B
66A+B
Kicks:
6K
3K
2K
1K
FC K
WS K
BT 2K (iffy due to safety)
8A+K
66K
33K
22_88K
44B+K
236K (iffy due to slow speed)
23652_8K
214K (iffy due to slow speed)
The following moves should still be retained but for PUNISHMENT ONLY (or possibly when you believe they do not have C2A/C3A ready):
AA (risky when still duckable)
6B (risky when still duckable)
236A
236B
236(B)
Notes:
1) 1A and FC 1B has frames that allow it to going under C3A
2) In the absence of throws, your only potential anti-step tools are probably: 1A, 4B, 33K, 66K
*Note that while none of these provide full tracking, when spaced appropriately, they either provide partial tracking on one side or at least require Hilde to have a more specific step timing to step towards one side.
3) Your primary reliable TC will be 66K - 4B is more evasion than true TC
4) Your primary reliable TJ will be 1K - 8A+K is more likely to get hit out of while still in the air
5) Don't ever throw out NH 8A+KK or NH 22_88KK - only do so on CH when it is guaranteed
6) Learn to hit confirm CH 33KK - it is hard but still possible
Other comments:
1) Don't whiff.
2) While Hilde can still technically step 4B both directions, 4B will still end up being your primary method of countering step to Cass' weak side.
3) If you are going to risk throwing Hilde or end up getting thrown, automatically assume her charges are back up to full. IMO it is very risky to throw Hilde and will hurt you more than help you.
4) Step-G is your friend. C2A/C3A can RO pretty far if you were trying to step C2B/C3B. Pay careful attention to ring positioning at all times. Be willing to give up offensive pressure for better positioning so that your next mistake won't be your last.
5) Learn to count charges. Unless you are superhuman and can track both in your head, pick the one you deem more threatening. A if you are worried about interrupts, B if you want to know which way you should be stepping. You can always switch to counting the other charge. Otherwise, if you limit your move usage down to what won't get aGI'ed/TC'ed by C3A, then it is probably preferable to count the B charge so you don't incorrectly step into C3B.
6) Reminder: Don't whiff. :)
Cass vs. Hilde
Expanding upon my previous find regarding 4B, I believe I've basically narrowed down the movelist for this matchup so that the aGI/TC properties on C3A can essentially be ignored. I have also culled moves that I think will blantantly get you killed due to safety even if they technically work against C3A (such as 8K) and moves that have the second hit work against C3A but the first does not (such as 2BB or 3AK).
Noteworthy (non-kicks):
1A
4B
FC 1B
66B
66A+B
Kicks:
6K
3K
2K
1K
FC K
WS K
BT 2K (iffy due to safety)
8A+K
66K
33K
22_88K
44B+K
236K (iffy due to slow speed)
23652_8K
214K (iffy due to slow speed)
The following moves should still be retained but for PUNISHMENT ONLY (or possibly when you believe they do not have C2A/C3A ready):
AA (risky when still duckable)
6B (risky when still duckable)
236A
236B
236(B)
Notes:
1) 1A and FC 1B has frames that allow it to going under C3A
2) In the absence of throws, your only potential anti-step tools are probably: 1A, 4B, 33K, 66K
*Note that while none of these provide full tracking, when spaced appropriately, they either provide partial tracking on one side or at least require Hilde to have a more specific step timing to step towards one side.
3) Your primary reliable TC will be 66K - 4B is more evasion than true TC
4) Your primary reliable TJ will be 1K - 8A+K is more likely to get hit out of while still in the air
5) Don't ever throw out NH 8A+KK or NH 22_88KK - only do so on CH when it is guaranteed
6) Learn to hit confirm CH 33KK - it is hard but still possible
Other comments:
1) Don't whiff.
2) While Hilde can still technically step 4B both directions, 4B will still end up being your primary method of countering step to Cass' weak side.
3) If you are going to risk throwing Hilde or end up getting thrown, automatically assume her charges are back up to full. IMO it is very risky to throw Hilde and will hurt you more than help you.
4) Step-G is your friend. C2A/C3A can RO pretty far if you were trying to step C2B/C3B. Pay careful attention to ring positioning at all times. Be willing to give up offensive pressure for better positioning so that your next mistake won't be your last.
5) Learn to count charges. Unless you are superhuman and can track both in your head, pick the one you deem more threatening. A if you are worried about interrupts, B if you want to know which way you should be stepping. You can always switch to counting the other charge. Otherwise, if you limit your move usage down to what won't get aGI'ed/TC'ed by C3A, then it is probably preferable to count the B charge so you don't incorrectly step into C3B.
6) Reminder: Don't whiff. :)
Rigil
[09] Warrior
This is why you are now Cass mod Lags...whether you like it or not. Good info I think we should move your analysis to the front of the thread.
LGInfinite
[09] Warrior
Very nice info on Hilde. How well does 66K TC?
Lags
[08] Mercenary
Situational Setup for Cass vs. Sophie using her 11A series
Quick analysis of what happens if Sophie hits Cass with her 11A series and what general options Cass has if she blocks the first hit.
Rough safety frames:
11A = ~ -10 on Block/+2 on NH/+2 on CH; recovers crouching (safe, ADV on hit low!)
11AA = -14 on Block/Knockdown on NH and CH; recovers standing; spaces like crazy on block (single A punish can whiff due to spacing)
11A[A] = UB (can step Left or 8WR Left if done early)
NH/CH 11AA (or very minor hold)
2nd A is Uninterruptible
Can still GI/Parry
NH/CH 11A[A] (minor to partial hold)
2nd A can be aGI'ed by 4A+K; otherwise Uninterruptible
Can still GI/Parry
NH/CH 11A[A] (full UB hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by 4A+K
As a general rule of thumb, i25's will trade
Lows will generally lose except 1K which will get CH
Throws will whiff unless delayed
JI can be done for the brave
Blocked 11AA (or very minor hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by FC B
2nd A will clash with FC 236A
As a general rule of thumb, i17's will trade
Can still GI/Parry
Blocked 11A[A] (minor to partial hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by FC B
2nd A will be interrupted by FC 236A
2nd A has variance to trade with i19~i22 depending on the hold duration
Throws can land
Can still GI/Parry
Blocked 11A[A] (full UB hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by FC B
2nd A will be interrupted by FC 236A
2nd A will be interrupted by 236K
2nd A will trade with 8B+K
Throws will whiff unless delayed
JI can be done for the brave
Basic Summary:
Sophie's 11A series is a pain in the butt for Cass to deal with.
Generally, if you get hit by the first Low, guard or risk 4A+K.
Generally, if you block the first Low, use FC B or FC 236A.
Quick analysis of what happens if Sophie hits Cass with her 11A series and what general options Cass has if she blocks the first hit.
Rough safety frames:
11A = ~ -10 on Block/+2 on NH/+2 on CH; recovers crouching (safe, ADV on hit low!)
11AA = -14 on Block/Knockdown on NH and CH; recovers standing; spaces like crazy on block (single A punish can whiff due to spacing)
11A[A] = UB (can step Left or 8WR Left if done early)
NH/CH 11AA (or very minor hold)
2nd A is Uninterruptible
Can still GI/Parry
NH/CH 11A[A] (minor to partial hold)
2nd A can be aGI'ed by 4A+K; otherwise Uninterruptible
Can still GI/Parry
NH/CH 11A[A] (full UB hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by 4A+K
As a general rule of thumb, i25's will trade
Lows will generally lose except 1K which will get CH
Throws will whiff unless delayed
JI can be done for the brave
Blocked 11AA (or very minor hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by FC B
2nd A will clash with FC 236A
As a general rule of thumb, i17's will trade
Can still GI/Parry
Blocked 11A[A] (minor to partial hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by FC B
2nd A will be interrupted by FC 236A
2nd A has variance to trade with i19~i22 depending on the hold duration
Throws can land
Can still GI/Parry
Blocked 11A[A] (full UB hold)
2nd A will be interrupted by FC B
2nd A will be interrupted by FC 236A
2nd A will be interrupted by 236K
2nd A will trade with 8B+K
Throws will whiff unless delayed
JI can be done for the brave
Basic Summary:
Sophie's 11A series is a pain in the butt for Cass to deal with.
Generally, if you get hit by the first Low, guard or risk 4A+K.
Generally, if you block the first Low, use FC B or FC 236A.
andur
[10] Knight
Anyone got any advice for dealing with a rock solid Siegfried? I got absolutely owned tonight by Offbeat's Siegy. He just seems ridiculously hard to close in on.
C-Money
[09] Warrior
Whats up ppl. Ok i am having a stupid hard time dealing with amy using Cass. The Particular amy im playing is very over aggressive. So she's pretty much always in my face and she's so fast that i feel that she beats everything i throw out in my attempt to push her back.
Any info on this match up?
Thanks :)
Any info on this match up?
Thanks :)
Here is the "big" secret about Amy : except for one move, (6BB) that's a high, everything else she has is same speed or slower than Cass !
AA : i16 vs i13
BB : i15
2A : i14 vs i13
66B: i16 vs 236B i15 (or i14 from the ground)
So if your opponent does 6BB, just use a TC move : 2B+K (+throw or 4BBA), 66A, ...
If your opponent uses 3BA, jump over the A and punish with 236 2B2BAA
Duck and punish 1KA, impact 66A ... Use 2A to take priority back if you need to.
Don't forget to punish the lows you guess right. They all get you 236 combo.
Use B+K to evade
Always stay out of range from 2B+K or step
Step a lot !
BTW 1A is extremely hard to punish for Amy (-17, and RCC 66B is 16+1) so you can use it as antistep, TC move ...
Cass has every tool to beat Amy.
AA : i16 vs i13
BB : i15
2A : i14 vs i13
66B: i16 vs 236B i15 (or i14 from the ground)
So if your opponent does 6BB, just use a TC move : 2B+K (+throw or 4BBA), 66A, ...
If your opponent uses 3BA, jump over the A and punish with 236 2B2BAA
Duck and punish 1KA, impact 66A ... Use 2A to take priority back if you need to.
Don't forget to punish the lows you guess right. They all get you 236 combo.
Use B+K to evade
Always stay out of range from 2B+K or step
Step a lot !
BTW 1A is extremely hard to punish for Amy (-17, and RCC 66B is 16+1) so you can use it as antistep, TC move ...
Cass has every tool to beat Amy.
andur
[10] Knight
Agreed with Tresto here. Cass vs Amy seems to be heavily in favor of Cassie. She doesn't really have a speed advantage over you.
And if you are playing a super-aggressive Amy, guard-impacting is your best friend as all of her in your face up close moves generally can be all impacted without having to time them specific for each one, as they are all about the speed. FC 3B is great if they just poke her B's out there.
And if you are playing a super-aggressive Amy, guard-impacting is your best friend as all of her in your face up close moves generally can be all impacted without having to time them specific for each one, as they are all about the speed. FC 3B is great if they just poke her B's out there.
Actually I wouldn't say that Cass has a *heavy* advantage, but I definitely believe that she has the edge in this matchup. (6-4 or something, but not 7-3)
Oh, other point, except for 1KA (that you can duck) or 66A (that you can impact on reaction), Amy has no real "blockstun" moves, meaning that if your opponent hits several times guard, you can keep him honest pretty easily with 2A/AA. Cass' AA being 30dmg, it's a really nice move.
Or and don't forget to punish everything after 236 stance (-16 ---> 236 2B8BAA 64dmg punish), to punish 6BBB, 66BA (if it whiffs), 4A... Also, Amy can't hurt you badly with any TJ move (her best is 8A+B, you can punish it too), so 2A is a very useful tool. Puts you at +8 on CH ...
Also abuse a lot of you 66B+G throw
Oh, other point, except for 1KA (that you can duck) or 66A (that you can impact on reaction), Amy has no real "blockstun" moves, meaning that if your opponent hits several times guard, you can keep him honest pretty easily with 2A/AA. Cass' AA being 30dmg, it's a really nice move.
Or and don't forget to punish everything after 236 stance (-16 ---> 236 2B8BAA 64dmg punish), to punish 6BBB, 66BA (if it whiffs), 4A... Also, Amy can't hurt you badly with any TJ move (her best is 8A+B, you can punish it too), so 2A is a very useful tool. Puts you at +8 on CH ...
Also abuse a lot of you 66B+G throw
Lags
[08] Mercenary
I am pretty sure that Cass is most likely at some sort of disadvantage vs Amy. How signficant can be somewhat debated, but a roachy Amy can quickly make it an unfun fight.
To make a long story short, Amy is both faster and safer.
She has a ton of tools that are very annoying to deal with. Twitching 1KA helps. You have to step correctly and space her out of 2B+K range when you can. Even without 2B+K though, her 1A is still a highly annoying Low and can be used with her 3A to help contain step. The main reason you don't want to duck on Amy is because of 33B (although she has plenty of other tools to make you reconsider ducking as well, such as 6:6B or 66A+B). Her B+K aGI can be pretty dangerous due to Cass' reliance on Mids. 6BB basically punishes a VERY signficant chunk of Cass' moves and basically allows her to get in mixups. The list goes on and on.
Basically, I hate Amy and I do not like the matchup. :P
To make a long story short, Amy is both faster and safer.
She has a ton of tools that are very annoying to deal with. Twitching 1KA helps. You have to step correctly and space her out of 2B+K range when you can. Even without 2B+K though, her 1A is still a highly annoying Low and can be used with her 3A to help contain step. The main reason you don't want to duck on Amy is because of 33B (although she has plenty of other tools to make you reconsider ducking as well, such as 6:6B or 66A+B). Her B+K aGI can be pretty dangerous due to Cass' reliance on Mids. 6BB basically punishes a VERY signficant chunk of Cass' moves and basically allows her to get in mixups. The list goes on and on.
Basically, I hate Amy and I do not like the matchup. :P
You not liking Amy and the matchup being at Amy's advantage are different things.
I understand it's hard to fight vs. Amy because of the constant 50/50 she applies.
But :
- Amy is not faster. She has one single move that's faster and every other one is slower. Read the frame data.
- Cass can punish every low with 64dmg
- What do you care about 1A and 3A ? They do crap damage. And 1A is -21 so the 236 2B8BAA punishment is even easier.
- You should read patterns and duck because 2B+K does nearly as much damage as 33B (39-42 vs 50) and you can punish the low
- Use 214 at disadvantage it's nice risk/reward vs Amy and her crap range
- You should still try to step because step~33B is 75dmg or step~236 64dmg. Nice whiff punish eh
- vs. auto-gi, don't forget to use your amazing AA (30dmg + advantage) and 6B, they are cool highs. 66A+B being a little slow it also catches auto-gi. Juste delaying is nice anyway
1KA is crap. Forget about the existence about that move, it doesn't count in any of Amy's matchups. It's 100% punishable and if it hits it's only NCC... That does no more no less damage than another mid... This move only works against an opponent who doesnt know how do counter it. (or who is drunk ^^ )
Maybe your Amy opponents simply have a better knowledge of the matchup or you don't know how to deal with them ^^
I understand it's hard to fight vs. Amy because of the constant 50/50 she applies.
But :
- Amy is not faster. She has one single move that's faster and every other one is slower. Read the frame data.
- Cass can punish every low with 64dmg
- What do you care about 1A and 3A ? They do crap damage. And 1A is -21 so the 236 2B8BAA punishment is even easier.
- You should read patterns and duck because 2B+K does nearly as much damage as 33B (39-42 vs 50) and you can punish the low
- Use 214 at disadvantage it's nice risk/reward vs Amy and her crap range
- You should still try to step because step~33B is 75dmg or step~236 64dmg. Nice whiff punish eh
- vs. auto-gi, don't forget to use your amazing AA (30dmg + advantage) and 6B, they are cool highs. 66A+B being a little slow it also catches auto-gi. Juste delaying is nice anyway
1KA is crap. Forget about the existence about that move, it doesn't count in any of Amy's matchups. It's 100% punishable and if it hits it's only NCC... That does no more no less damage than another mid... This move only works against an opponent who doesnt know how do counter it. (or who is drunk ^^ )
Maybe your Amy opponents simply have a better knowledge of the matchup or you don't know how to deal with them ^^
EggMaster
[08] Mercenary
Aha, IMO, the match up is pretty well balanced (5-5).
Tresto : What you have said is true, but... It's a theoric reallity. Lows are punished by 236 combos, that's right, but you can also think by this way : If Cassandra ducks on a launcher (66:B, safe etc...), it means she's going to take heavy damages.
So the Risk/reward is well balanced i guess. It's all about mind game.
Amy is faster. 6BB : Punish 66A, 66K, and 2B+K, which are key moves. Cass and Amy 2A are both i14.
Amy is safer ! It's very difficult to punish her. Except for the lows which are invisible, and can be mixed up with heavy launchers. So it's not free aha !
Agree with Amy's 1KA, Crap move : Free punishment.
But Tresto says interesting things, and I add some good stuffs :
- Use TC moves : 2B+K, 236A, 66A, 1A...
- Step a lot. Back dash is cool at middle range (214 can also work)
- FC 3B is your friend.
- Use TJs : 1K, 9B, 88K...
- B+K is quite efficient in disadvantage. Don't forget it !
- You MUST punish all the lows. It can be hard at the beginning, but it's important if you want to keep a well balanced risks/rewards and hace a chance to punish her !
- 1K or 9B are good after Amy's 3B.
Tresto : What you have said is true, but... It's a theoric reallity. Lows are punished by 236 combos, that's right, but you can also think by this way : If Cassandra ducks on a launcher (66:B, safe etc...), it means she's going to take heavy damages.
So the Risk/reward is well balanced i guess. It's all about mind game.
Amy is faster. 6BB : Punish 66A, 66K, and 2B+K, which are key moves. Cass and Amy 2A are both i14.
Amy is safer ! It's very difficult to punish her. Except for the lows which are invisible, and can be mixed up with heavy launchers. So it's not free aha !
Agree with Amy's 1KA, Crap move : Free punishment.
But Tresto says interesting things, and I add some good stuffs :
- Use TC moves : 2B+K, 236A, 66A, 1A...
- Step a lot. Back dash is cool at middle range (214 can also work)
- FC 3B is your friend.
- Use TJs : 1K, 9B, 88K...
- B+K is quite efficient in disadvantage. Don't forget it !
- You MUST punish all the lows. It can be hard at the beginning, but it's important if you want to keep a well balanced risks/rewards and hace a chance to punish her !
- 1K or 9B are good after Amy's 3B.
Foxbot
[09] Warrior
IS 22A better used on advantage pr disadvantage? It has decent tracking, good evasion, does ok damage on CH and is pretty safe. I guess it's ok to do it both on advantage and disadvantage, but what do you guys think ?
lobo
Luminario
it is very rare that i'll use 22_88a. maybe as a shot in the dark for a RO, but that's it. i have a really hard time CH confirming it for some reason. not a very good move imo. sophie's 22_88a, now that's a different story...
EggMaster
[08] Mercenary
22A is a good move. I often use it when I am back to the edge, in disadvantage, to get the CH and RO with 4BB:A.
It works pretty well.
It works pretty well.
Tseuee
[08] Mercenary
this helps a lot, thank you very much
EggMaster
[08] Mercenary
Hey guys, here's my last Cass matchups estimates.
- Vs Amy: 4,5:5,5
- Vs Astaroth: 6:4
- Vs Cervantes: 6:4
- Vs Hilde: 3:7
- Vs Ivy: 4:6
- Vs Kilik: 5:5
- Vs Lizardman: 6:4
- Vs Maxi: 6:4
- Vs Mina: 7:3
- Vs Mitsurugi: 6:4
- Vs Nightmare: 7:3
- Vs Raphael: 6:4
- Vs Rock: 7:3
- Vs Setsuka: 4:6
- Vs Siegfried: 6:4
- Vs Sophitia: 5,5:4,5
- Vs Taki: 6:4
- Vs Talim: 7:3
- Vs Tira: 6:4.
- Vs Voldo: 5:5
- Vs Xianghua: 5:5
- Vs Yoshimitsu: 5:5
- Vs Yunsung: 7:3
- Vs Zasalamel: ?:? (I have no idea, never played against a good Zas)
About Vader/Yoda/Algol > I don't know. These characters aren't played in France at all.
- Vs Amy: 4,5:5,5
- Vs Astaroth: 6:4
- Vs Cervantes: 6:4
- Vs Hilde: 3:7
- Vs Ivy: 4:6
- Vs Kilik: 5:5
- Vs Lizardman: 6:4
- Vs Maxi: 6:4
- Vs Mina: 7:3
- Vs Mitsurugi: 6:4
- Vs Nightmare: 7:3
- Vs Raphael: 6:4
- Vs Rock: 7:3
- Vs Setsuka: 4:6
- Vs Siegfried: 6:4
- Vs Sophitia: 5,5:4,5
- Vs Taki: 6:4
- Vs Talim: 7:3
- Vs Tira: 6:4.
- Vs Voldo: 5:5
- Vs Xianghua: 5:5
- Vs Yoshimitsu: 5:5
- Vs Yunsung: 7:3
- Vs Zasalamel: ?:? (I have no idea, never played against a good Zas)
About Vader/Yoda/Algol > I don't know. These characters aren't played in France at all.
flask
[09] Warrior
thank you EggMaster, interesting to see!
would you mind explaining the Cass vs Sophitia matchup a bit?
what are Cass´ advantages over her sister?
would you mind explaining the Cass vs Sophitia matchup a bit?
what are Cass´ advantages over her sister?
- Admin
- #80
SCPartisan
Holy Moly
Thanks for the info Eggmaster.
I might be able to give an estimate for Vader next time I play OOF offline and not suck. As for Algol I would say that it might be 5:5 or perhaps 6:4 for Cass. FC1B seems to be able to counter the bubble shield if close enough, and Algols close range game isn't very good beyond a few moves(at least in my experience). Spacing is the main issue vs. him but once you get in close it's not too hard to deal some damage.