Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

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I'm sorry for not reading through all 1200 posts in this thread, but bout the timing on b4...How does one go about timing it to adjust the speed? It's a mystery to me, and it just seems like such a unique input which I'd like to really learn to use.

Nah, I don't have interest in maining Zeeky/Whiffried but I'd just love some advice on how to get that move down. Assuming there's any advice I can be given that isn't PRACTICE ;)
 
Wandrian said:
I'm sorry for not reading through all 1200 posts in this thread, but bout the timing on b4...How does one go about timing it to adjust the speed? It's a mystery to me, and it just seems like such a unique input which I'd like to really learn to use.

Nah, I don't have interest in maining Zeeky/Whiffried but I'd just love some advice on how to get that move down. Assuming there's any advice I can be given that isn't PRACTICE ;)
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You time the 4 as late as possible before it comes out as a plain old B or the fast one. As early as possible for the useless slow one.
Edit: Forgot to mention. This move is nearly useless now because of it guard crushing in 10 instead of 6 before the 1.02 patch. They really killed this move...
Edit2: You could attempt some obvious frame traps, or shitty GC pressure...
 
In which favor do you think is the MU vs Viola? Imo its a very tough char to beat but there is a lot QQing in the viola SA because of his range. It seems legit that spacing chars give her a hard time but i cant say that beating viola has ever been easy for me (and i train a lot with a viola main) because of her pressure game and enormous potential on combos.

What's the consensus here, is it in Siegs or Violas favor?
 
From the sound of it, it seems quite even. If Sieg keeps his spacing up it's his game but once she gets in it's a long day for Sieg. Maybe 6:4 Sieg favor.
P.S. Match ups like this make me miss SCIV 6K. Lol
 
ChaosK said:
In which favor do you think is the MU vs Viola? Imo its a very tough char to beat but there is a lot QQing in the viola SA because of his range. It seems legit that spacing chars give her a hard time but i cant say that beating viola has ever been easy for me (and i train a lot with a viola main) because of her pressure game and enormous potential on combos.

What's the consensus here, is it in Siegs or Violas favor?
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It depends on the quality of the Viola player and whether the pressure they are using is legitimate or not. Alot of her strings end in high ball recalls which you can TC or manually crouch and mix-up with throws or WR B.

HOWEVER, Viola has 2 literal bullshit set-ups
1) SET ORB 44aBE : This involves her performing her usual 44A with the ball spinning in 3 circles, which if they connect she can 6B+K cancel for a ridiculous damage combo. Now the problem with this move is that there is zero risk to throwing it out. You can sidestep the first orb hit after she goes through the motions with her hands, if she does this you are totally safe, but so is she. You cannot whiff punish her and she can take the opportunity to start a 3B/Throw mix-up. JGing the ball is not particularly meaningful because she can come at you anyway and the ball will hit. I haven't done enough testing to see if you have any options that can retaliate inbetween ball hits.

The only really viable strategy against this move is GIing the orb, since she's committed to this you can 100% know when to GI. Seems silly that the only option involves burning meter.

2) SET ORB 6B+K: This moves involves Viola waving her hand, allowing her enough time to do an attack like her 3A or 6B, the ball returning as a special mid and giving her variable frame advantage depending on the previous move. I believe that her doing 6B+K, 6B (orb recall block) gives about +9 giving her free mix-ups. After blocking 6B you can step the orb to the left, however if they replace 6B with 3A you will not be able to step (though I believe they get less advantage in that situation. She can vary the beginnings and instead of setting you up with a mid she can do a low-poke or a throw. If you guess wrong on the throw she will get some throw damage, the orb will interrupt the throw and she gets another throw or 3B mix-up.

Basically this move is the devil because there is zero risk to throwing it out there and just forces free mix-ups. Again you can GI the orb since you know when it is coming, but forcing Sieg to burn meter seems really lame to deal with her set-ups. Especially since his damage is largely meter dependent. For this match-up I would try to make friends with 1B as it is Sieg's best meterless option post-GI, problem is the Attack Throw is range dependent but that shouldn't be a problem if you are GIing viola.

So general strategy? Do what Viola players hate and space them. It's also nonsense that Viola is now one of the highest damage characters in the game with minimal effort / meter expenditure. Namco balancing at work. Every other set-up viola has usually involves a high ball recall and can be avoided accordingly. I think Namco flopped huge when they made such a safe character with 2 almost riskless set-ups but that's just me. She's beatable, it's just a pain and requires a very different mentality since she is basically an easy mode force 50/50 character at heart. It's also difficult to meaningfully punish her so the best advice I can give is don't let her play her game and control space. And be wary of her excellent ring out range on combos with alternate ender.

Trying to make a MU ratio is deceptively difficult here since it is entirely dependent on how retarded the Viola player is. If the Viola player is abusing bullshit duckable set-ups the MU is in SIeg's favour, but literally abusing 6B+K makes it easy mode for Viola since SIeg will run out of meter to step safe ball set-ups.
 
Shadaloo Showdown ends, and once again I am bombarded with ignorant players telling me how awesome x Jpn player is. Shoot me. Speaking of which, thanks for writing all of that up Pyro. Lots of good information in there that people need to know.

But yeah, the big problem is Set Orb 6B+K, I feel. Her safety after this move is absolutely ridiculous. I have been frantically attempting to train myself to react to the whiff animation that accompanies this move whenever she's in range so I can just shut her up. Knee-jerk 1K_3K_2A may or may not hit her, but if the Viola is in range, it will ensure she does not get a free follow-up, which is my main concern.

If you are forced to take her mix-up, there are some important things you must note:

Stand. If you realize that you did not react accordingly to 6B+K, don't random duck. Her throws aren't threatening enough to force a heavy mix-up like that. If she has the orb in her possession, usual 50/50. If she does not, which is the case for this scenario, always always ALWAYS stand guard, and break A unless your back is to the ring edge. Viola is kind enough to put us right where we want to be - outside her melee range entirely, so take the shitty B throw damage and get on with the game.

React to 1A+B. This is essential. If Viola players are using this move generously, you're doing something wrong. Viola is scariest when she scores a knockdown. This move knocks down and leaves you right in her face. She can either elect to get her free 66A+B,B, or 6B+K for more setup shenanigans. Choose your wake-up options wisely. Speaking of which, try not to roll too much. She can Set Orb 6B+K, 2K to catch you rolling - leaving you still grounded after for another oki mix-up. As Tokido so kindly demonstrated, she can also 6B+K 3B people who start ducking the 2K. I would just neutral stand guard, as she does not get anything for free if you take the 2K~orb as far as I can tell... just a throw mix-up, which is not a big deal.

Basically, she doesn't have anything that you can't see that would make you want to duck. There's no reason she should be scoring all of these free 3B's I keep seeing on streams. She's relatively linear. 66AAB (high, high, high) should not be a problem for ANYONE to duck. It is hit confirmable, though, so good players won't be throwing it out rampantly. This is the only step deterrent I've seen from her that's worth mentioning... at least in Set Orb.

So yeah. Stand, break A grabs, see 1A+B, don't take any 6B+K bullshit, step_jG 44a BE, and you're going to make life difficult for any Viola player. I am determined to not let any more people get scrubbed out by this character.

P.S. Beware her 2A.
 
Has anyone else been using B4 as a force block after SCH K BE? I find it works rather well. Gives you some nice advantage and it hurts the gauge alot. I opt to do this more than aGA mid match.
 
Jargen said:
Has anyone else been using B4 as a force block after SCH K BE? I find it works rather well. Gives you some nice advantage and it hurts the gauge alot. I opt to do this more than aGA mid match.
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I had been trying that in training mode, but the dummy seems to be able to ukemi out of it, but I may not have been getting the fastest input reliably.
 
coth_x said:
I had been trying that in training mode, but the dummy seems to be able to ukemi out of it, but I may not have been getting the fastest input reliably.
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Hmm that is strange. I've tested every direction and my dummy has never teched out. I even tried it VS very hard CPU and it never teched out. It would either take huge damage or get up and block. I will do further testing to make sure this is completely accurate.
 
That sounds nice. If only it broke the gauge in 6 hits instead of 10. That was the most unreasonable nerf I had ever seen.
 
So I've done further testing by trying to tech out myself. I've found a potentially great oki set-up off of it. Here is the thing. You cannot tech in any direction after SCH K BE other than straight up. However, you are able to roll. I've found moves that cover each direction of roll:

Back: B4
Right: 66B
Left: 22_88 BB
Front: 3B

These are the moves that I have found worked best for each direction. The moves above can also most likely control two or more directions as well.
 
Especially when you have to guess a 1/3 to even net the miniscule additional damage compared to what you would have gotten if you just finished the damn combo... not worth it.
 
Jargen said:
Hmm that is strange. I've tested every direction and my dummy has never teched out. I even tried it VS very hard CPU and it never teched out. It would either take huge damage or get up and block. I will do further testing to make sure this is completely accurate.
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I remember it was a specific direction. It was on random ukemi, it could have been piss poor timing on my part though.
 
After SCH k(BE) ~ JagA, 66B is a force block in all directions, and 66A+B is a force block unless they roll left or right. There's really no reason not to do it that way if you want guard damage.
 
Thanks for letting me know about that. I'll be using it now for gauge damage. One question though, is it a force block after a standard agA? My iagA isn't so consistent.
 
Here are some more funky tidbits for you Sieg enthusiasts:

1.) A simple CE~W!~1K will do more dmg than the standard fare 3(B)~W!~SCH B~CE combo following the initial wall splat in a lot of scenarios.

Not only that, you can choose to omit the 1K (which adds only a few pts of dmg) and work with 3(B) as a force block. Having your back right next to the wall is by far the worst situation you could block this move in.

Not only does this prevent silly hitbox shenanigans vs the rather short ranged knee, the two hits of SCH A WILL always connect, leaving them in the same situation at -9. Plus getting hit by SCH K BE here leads to rather extreme amounts of pain.

If you get them to freeze you can go out of stance with SCH B, free guard dmg and you're still at advantage - with the threat of an imminent wall-splat still present thanks to 66K, 6A and agA.

The real point, tho, is simply to get them to get up immediately so you can have your throw attempt with them right next to the wall, which makes teching a moot point.

2.) In a situation where you get a high BT wallsplat following a 3B or WS B launch (you will see this occur post agA, FC B+G, and 22A wall splats most often) you can opt to use SCH A instead of SCH B (same timing to prevent an accidental air hit). This will leave the opponent standing BT right next to you at +9 to your advantage.

A backthrow attempt in this situation can only be prevented by ducking, unless you're fighting Voldo/Asta/ZWEI of course. It will also effectively double the damage you would've done with your generic meterless wall combo otherwise.

Even if you guess wrong, you lose only about 10 dmg in comparison to the regular follow-up. Should your opponent choose to duck, you can re-wall splat him with an iWS B or 3B combo. Depending on the angle (22A makes this easiest) you can even do the full launch combo before the wall splat, with a follow-up of your choice.

The (very) situational theoretical maximum dmg for this trap exceeds 200 pts. At the very least you'll get 150-160dmg for your trouble, though.
 
What do you all think could be done to 66A to make it useful? Are there any current situations where you use it? I'm trying to implement more moves in my game.
 
Solo said:
What do you all think could be done to 66A to make it useful? Are there any current situations where you use it? I'm trying to implement more moves in my game.
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If your opponent spams 2A on hit, try stuff like 1K on hit, 66A. Welcome to GI land.

Also incredibly useful against NM's 22AA/22AA6 since it beats out both the second hit and GS B (but not GS A/ empty GS)
 
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