Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

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MKHSpartan said:
Isn't Hilde's 2A+B i16 and it hits 34 damage I think (their frame data is out of date I believe, it got buffed damage wise in an early patch and I don't think they changed that in the wiki).
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The problem being that you are almost always out of range for 2A+B, usually relegating you to 66K or 66B for moves until -21. Hilde is probably one of the worst straight up block punishers in the game.

MKHSpartan said:
At -18 with Asta almost every Asta player will go for a throw mix-up, or 66K into another Throw/66K mix-up.
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Throw isn't a punish, and 66K into 66K/throw mix-up means everyone is going to duck because fuck standing up for Astaroth.

MKHSpartan said:
Also can I point out Tira's i18 punishment is good, 47 in Jolly with potential for a 666B added if you get the stance transition and gloomy gets about 90 meterless damage (which is fucking annoying).
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That it is.

MKHSpartan said:
The force block is ok, but sometimes you want damage to their health not their guard meter but you don't always have meter to burn. I hate when to win the round I need to land about 50 damage, I land a normal hit 3B punish and I only get 39 damage and then have to run wtf mix-ups to get a little foot in poke to win. Personally if both kicks comboed in NH launch I would be perfectly fine with that, it would be 50 NH damage of a meterless launcher.
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The force block is excellent. If you want damage only, play a Greek or manage your meter better. I don't understand how none of you see how good of an opportunity a free blocked SCH B is. You are investing towards guard pressure and retarded damage later in the match, which is something you should always be doing with Siegfried because of his insane post break damage and ability to pressure.
 
Tbh i am not too fond of siegs GB game. Looking at the numbers he seems to break rather slowly, maybe its just me playing too defensively though.
Then when actually breaking, i found it quite a challenge to make people block either (B) or 44(B). So in most cases i just go for an easier break and get my wrB~SCH B for 70ish dmg.

I personally found his GB game not good enough to be a main strategy anymore tbh. Any advice?
Heaton said:
Aeon: 4A, 51 damage + KND
Algol: 4BA, 55 damage + KND
Astaroth: 66K, 28 damage + 10 frames
Cervantes: 66B, 50 damage + KND; at range 30 damage, no KND
Ezio: 6B, high, 28 damage and +6
Hilde: 66B, high, 24 damage and +9
Maxi: 6A+B, 35 damage + KND
Ivy: 3B, 38 damage + KND; becomes i19 at tip; gets better damage on fat people
Raphael: 3(B), 48 damage and +10; at range 38 damage and +11
Yoshimitsu: 3B, 60 damage and the ability to AC your knockdown to fullscreen
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I look at this list and i see siegfried either dealing a lot less dmg or getting in a way less beneficial position. For example a KND gives very valuable oki, for immediate pressure and dmg. A throw punish in Astas case, might not be guaranteed but i personally consider a 50/50 with insane dmg a lot more valuable then guaranteed 39/30 with no KND.
Same with yoshi. No yoshi player worth their crap will go for 3B~K for 60 dmg unless it kills - they will go for the half life parting thrust mixup.

Not to forget that the majority you didn't list actually gets very good punishment.
Maybe i would look differently at it when SCH B would have an insanely good GB number, but it breaks in 11.
Siegfried is not the worst in terms of meterless punishment, but below average imho is a given.
 
ChaosK said:
I personally found his GB game not good enough to be a main strategy anymore tbh. Any advice?
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Use B4.

ChaosK said:
I look at this list and i see siegfried either dealing a lot more dmg or getting in a way less beneficial position. For example a KND gives very valuable oki, for immediate pressure and dmg. A throw punish in Astas case, might not be guaranteed but i personally consider a 50/50 with insane dmg a lot more valuable then guaranteed 39/30 with no KND.
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Do remember that you have other stances, and you don't have to take SCH B on force block. There's other things you can do in this situation. For example, the KND gives very valuable okizeme, for immediate pressure and damage. =P

ChaosK said:
Same with yoshi. No yoshi player worth their crap will go for 3B~K for 60 dmg unless it kills - they will go for the half life parting thrust mixup.
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That's not actually a mix-up since there's a way out of everything at once.

ChaosK said:
Not to forget that the majority you didn't list actually gets very good punishment.
Maybe i would look differently at it when SCH B would have an insanely good GB number, but it breaks in 11.
Siegfried is by no means the worst in terms of punishment, but below average imho is a given.
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Remember that majority is half + 1. I personally count 14 that have worse i18 meterless punishment than Siegfried, but it seems you're looking for something entirely different in a punisher. At worst, though, he's the median for punishment value.
 
Heaton said:
Use B4.
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It was a move i used to love. But people simply JG it on reaction, no matter which timing i use or step it.
Post patch it also breaks in 10, considering the risk, i found myself shying away from it, more often than not. I mostly prefer SCH B instead.
That's not actually a mix-up since there's a way out of everything at once.
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I thought it was a legit mix-up. How? Pls dont say ukemi JG
 
ChaosK said:
It was a move i used to love. But people simply JG it on reaction, no matter which timing i use or step it.
Post patch it also breaks in 10, considering the risk, i found myself shying away from it, more often than not. I mostly prefer SCH B instead.
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I use the fastest version almost exclusively, and use it generally in knockdown situations. If they don't tech immediately after most knockdowns, they're usually fair game for that or 66B.

ChaosK said:
I thought it was a legit mix-up. How? Pls dont say ukemi JG
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It involves rolling or something. I've only seen it twice and didn't really get it. Ask mkl about it since he understands it better than I do.
 
I find my B4 gets JGed too much then I get launched for 90+ damage by Tira. Plus it breaks in 10, isn't that 1 less than SCH B and that is almost safe on JG.

Also GBing with (B) and 44B is quite damn hard to do when your opponent sees they are in the red and know you are going for FLY HIGH damage, so they tend to interrupt alot on red and I often have to take my 3B/wrB combo for average GB damage.
 
Hello brothers.

Personally, i think that having 66K BE as a 15 (or was it 16f) punisher is really good for a great sword character....

The focus for sieg shouldn't be block punishing. IMO if you find block punishing very important for your sieg something's off... because sieg is about whiff punishment. He holds such great range and can move well in many situations so its easy to get those whiffs.

As far as GB game is concerned I really like his! You go for GB damage after a combo.. like tack on a 66B or 66A+B after an A:G:A hits and that will all add up. Gradually his "fortress" game gets stronger and stronger.

I raelly like to do 3B K (BE) 66A+B at endgame situations. It GBs easily, and they cant roll away from it if they choose to take the damage... and they lose half life ><

Also i'm reading that sieg is about mixups? and you'd prefer not to do guard damage.. i disagree there. i feel sieg is about commanding the mid-distance, prserving a status quo, while chipping their health and guard gauge, and punishing whiffs... to lead to more unescapabel oki and guard gauge damage. a war of attrition. then you just stand there and make them come in for B6 and iAGA.

Try to avoid mixups as much as you can, especially against greeks.... Throw from neutral is enough. Also people don't duck throws they WALK into.

I'll share some of my sets.

B6 iWSB Vs people who run up to throw/mixup/press stuff

So people will like to throw buttons from there, so I B6, backstep/sidestep/JG (works for MOSt matchups) into 3B punish.

So people would be like D= lets just run up and block. Throw them there. or 66B for block damage

Yeah. I think that works.

Hope it helps!
 
I agree. Play a character to his strengths, instead of comparing his weaker points to characters that are better in that area.
When I play Raphael, I'm not saying: "OMG his RO game sucks compared to Aeon!"
I'm more like: "llollol I can punish everything"
 
I actually find his meter punishment to be really good. Especially for a big sword character.
66K BE deals 62 dmg for an i15 punisher, which is pretty good and if you need the dmg you can dump all your meter into it for up to 80/90 ish iirc.
It also sets up RO's or wallsplats quite well, especially against small females, where 8B+K~SCH K BE is a combo - we are talking about almost aeon level RO tech here.

With lots of meter he can punish -18/-16 lows for almost half life.

Imo his meter punishment is really good and a very vital part of his game. Meterless on the other hand, not so much imho. Its not a big deal though, as mentioned already - his strengths lie in other areas.

Edit: Does anyone mind to share some of his (B)/44(B) GB techs? As i said, i have trouble actually breaking with those moves. When people flash red, they mostly just start to step it or be even more dickish and just don't block (B).
Of course this makes them more vulnerable to step killing and other tactis, which in itself is pretty nice but actually breaking with (B) i dont have much success with. Help would be appreciated.
 
Yes! his low punishment is obscene.

Frankly, if you do things right, Siegfried's top 5 move is stand G.

First the opponent has to work through 2-3 layers of shit.

Layer 1 (A:G:A B6 CH A)
Layer 2 ( Layer 1 moves, WSB, 22A, 6A)
Layer 3 (Throw, 66B)

From each layer you can move back to bait and reset the spacing, or extend the layers to opponents who decide to take the initiative. Imagine... after all that hard work you just stand G.... make them want to throw you. just keep breaking them. Be stubborn as hell about stand G....

Then finally... you duck or SBH B when it matters. thats 90-110ish damage)

VERY important also is to know how to move back safely. When you are at + frames, step just ONE step then press G. that creates a step's worth of distance. This is important because that distnace, is jsut enough windup time for a WSB/A:G:A/B6 to fly at their faces
Very discouraging :D
 
I've been connecting with 33_99A a lot lately. Maybe so many Siegfried players gave up on that move they don't really watch for it anymore? Or maybe that says something about the quality of the competition that's still a tough fight for me.
 
Imo the trick for that move is to use it as a whiffpunisher. I exclusively input it with 887A or 221A and its a good punish for moves that are very unsafe on whiff.

If you misjudge it and it gets blocked by accident most people dont know that its +2 on block so you can frametrap them.
The extra benefit is that when you use 887_221A, 3B actually can connect as a launcher but you should still learn to iwrB for obvious reasons.

Also learn to judge at which point iwrB wont connect anymore and go for CE instead. If you do it fast enough, you will still hit them while they are standing and BT'ed for much better scaling. That way it deals 100 dmg instead of 77.

As an extra note, at the moment i dabble a little bit into 44A after Guard Break, which framewise can connect and deals more damage (unless you break with a move that transitions into SBH of course). The problem is that your opponent has certain TC frames while he recovers from his break and i havent quite figured out which timing to use and after which moves it makes sense.
 
He said 33_99A. Isn't that the 8-wayrun version of 66A, the "Hi I'm coming!!!" GB attack?

I do agree with your 44A comments though, I need to find places to whiff punish with it.
 
Oh my bad you are right. I wouldn't use 33_99A at all tbh. Imo 66A's only use is to have a GI available from FC, so i sometimes use it as a yomi tool when i expect them to go for like a 2A after using a move that leaves sieg in FC, or in strings where SBH is not an option (due to being either too slow or being in FC).

Outside of that i would really only use it very rarely on absolute tip range to keep them honest at long range.
 
Adding up to topic!: So far playing Sig, I yet haven't figured a good use for 4A & 11B. To me they simply seem no useful. Anyone care to agree or differ?
 
11B is good if you catch them off guard with it while they're moving forward to attack. If you get a counter hit, you can follow up with SCH B and then CE.
 
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