Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

DanteSC3

[14] Master
During the timeline of SCVI Nightmare and Siegfried did not co-exist, yet we still have them available as 2 separate playable characters. So once again, why not giving Amy and Viola the same treatment? At the end of the day I just want Viola's fighting style to make a return as it would be a shame to leave it simply wasted. For all I care, it could even be an entirely new character taking the place of Viola.
Because, and I don't blame you for not knowing, because the game didn't really explain it, though there were hints, Nightmare in SoulCalibur V was using Raphael's body. So there's no duplication there, except for Raphael, but the story would have had Raphael get his body back and search for Amy once he regained consciousness of self, had the story been completed. So it would be a Siegfried/Nightmare from SoulCalibur I-II situation for Raphael.

Edit: Typo fix.
 
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RagingGhost

[10] Knight
Because, and I don't blame you for not knowing, because the game didn't really explain it, though there were hints, Nightmare in SoulCalibur VI was using Raphael's body. So there's no duplication there, except for Raphael, but the story would have had Raphael get his body back and search for Amy once he regained consciousness of self, had the story been completed. So it would be a Siegfried/Nightmare from SoulCalibur I-II situation for Raphael.
Sucks that they had to make Nightmare keep his greatsword. What happened to Soul Edge's ability to adapt to it's wielder? Shouldn't it be a rapier when it was controlling Raphael?
 

mokamoka827

[13] Hero
Because, and I don't blame you for not knowing, because the game didn't really explain it, though there were hints, Nightmare in SoulCalibur VI was using Raphael's body. So there's no duplication there, except for Raphael, but the story would have had Raphael get his body back and search for Amy once he regained consciousness of self, had the story been completed. So it would be a Siegfried/Nightmare from SoulCalibur I-II situation for Raphael.
You mean Soulcalibur V, right?
 

Volpe

[03] Disciple
Because, and I don't blame you for not knowing, because the game didn't really explain it, though there were hints, Nightmare in SoulCalibur VI was using Raphael's body. So there's no duplication there, except for Raphael, but the story would have had Raphael get his body back and search for Amy once he regained consciousness of self, had the story been completed. So it would be a Siegfried/Nightmare from SoulCalibur I-II situation for Raphael.
granted, the trailer would give you also a vague idea of what is going on but at the end of the day it would still be 2 characters being available to play that would lore-wise not be able to co-exist as 2 separate characters. All I'm saying is, so many other fighting games provide you with different timeline/lore variations of the original character, hell they've even casually thrown in Tira just to make fans shut up for a second. I'm genuinely asking would you be like 100% against the idea of Amy and Viola being available as 2 separate characters?
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
Sucks that they had to make Nightmare keep his greatsword. What happened to Soul Edge's ability to adapt to it's wielder? Shouldn't it be a rapier when it was controlling Raphael?
This was explained in the "New Legends of Project Soul" artbook. Raphael brokered a deal with Inferno to allow the sword to use the style it preferred in exchange for allowing Raphael to pursue his own methods of acquiring souls, that being using politics and other people to gather the souls instead of just ravaging the countryside and collecting the souls directly. It's handwavey, but they did give an answer. It is Raphael's methods that Tira doesn't agree with, which is why she raises Pyrrha to be a savage and relentless killer, to bring back the "real" Nightmare, in a more suitable host.

You mean Soulcalibur V, right?
Derp. Yes, of course.

granted, the trailer would give you also a vague idea of what is going on but at the end of the day it would still be 2 characters being available to play that would lore-wise not be able to co-exist as 2 separate characters. All I'm saying is, so many other fighting games provide you with different timeline/lore variations of the original character, hell they've even casually thrown in Tira just to make fans shut up for a second. I'm genuinely asking would you be like 100% against the idea of Amy and Viola being available as 2 separate characters?
SoulCalibur, for better or for worse, takes its story a bit more seriously than other fighting games. Particularly SoulCalibur VI, which has thrown out the what-if scenarios and the power fantasy endings where every character gets what they want, fulfills their goals, and all that sort of thing. Now, if it happens in a story mode, it's canon, regardless of who is doing it. Which makes for a more cohesive narrative, and, if they're going to take their story so seriously, then I would prefer it this way than to how it used to be, where you didn't know for sure what was canon until the next game came out to confirm it.

Tira's inclusion doesn't clash with anything, as her backstory was already written to cover back to the Evil Seed, and she was a fully-fledged assassin from the age of nine. So, this is just us seeing her origin story in-game for the first time, really. Same goes for Zasalamel, as an immortal time lord representative, his inclusion doesn't clash with anything either.

I would not be against Amy and Viola being available as 2 separate characters, no, which is why I can be on board with the Viola is a clone theory, or anything else that allows them both to exist in the narrative, which, assuming SoulCalibur VII and beyond will keep up with SoulCalibur VI's "everything is canon" methodology, is a requirement if we are to have both characters coexisting.

They can both be in the same game where the transformation occurs, if they are one in the same, but unless Viola regains her memories and is able to regain her training with a rapier, there isn't a lorewise explanation as to how they could both exist if they are the same person, so after she becomes Viola, she's stuck as Viola, and it's a one-way trip.

I believe that Amy's Soul Chronicle will be giving us some sort of an out, one way or another, that will allow the two to coexist. You can call it whatever you want, but if they did make her a clone as a result of Azwel's mad science, power to them, allowing them both to exist in all future games without having to explain it.

Edit: Added replies to mokamoka827 and Volpe.
 
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Crash X

[13] Hero
Sucks that they had to make Nightmare keep his greatsword. What happened to Soul Edge's ability to adapt to it's wielder? Shouldn't it be a rapier when it was controlling Raphael?
I think it may have been because it was stated in the art book that Raphael died before the events of SCV, and that his body was used as a host as the new Nightmare with the stained memories of Soul Edge.


Either that or there would have been a ton of outcry if Nightmare was using the Rapier instead of his typical big-ass meat sword.
 

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Because it's simple, they came up with that nonsensical reason because they needed a way for Nightmare to keep his signature style. Nightmare using a one-handed zweihander = good. Nightmare being a fencer = bad.

And yes, that explanation makes zero sense. Then again, SCV isn't exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling so I'm not going act like it should've been better.
 

JohnMcKee

[14] Master
People still arguing about the presence of Amy and Viola making no sense?

Get yourselves together: we're talking magical swords, supernatural fighting abilities, golems, spirits, possession, soul stealing characters, time manipulation, and you're saying that Amy and Viola can't coexist because they are the same person but from different points in time?

Lemme spam Okubo to have 2B, or either Siegfried or Nightmare removed, because it really IS the same situation.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
SoulCalibur, for better or for worse, takes its story a bit more seriously than other fighting games.
I really don't think it does--or at least typically has. With it's never maintaining a strict continuity between any two games, its stable of goofball characters, and portals dropping random guests in, there's been no real effort to keep the story either consistent or "pure" in any substantial sense. This franchise never has taken it's story very seriously--nor would it make sense to do so given A) it's a fighting game, where too much pre-occupation with continuity is an impossibility, given other, more practical concerns, and B) the particular narrative here is just an extremely silly pulp-fantasy construct with a premise straight of anime and execution that is b-movie class, at the best of times.

So, I have to push back against "it takes its story seriously" as a historical matter. I think it's better said that some fans (not looking at anyone in particular here!) take the story more seriously than they perhaps should, given what it is. ;) But I will grant you this:

Particularly SoulCalibur VI, which has thrown out the what-if scenarios and the power fantasy endings where every character gets what they want, fulfills their goals, and all that sort of thing.
For a certainty, there is a marked difference in this game from previous ones insofar as the stories of individual characters all flow into one roughly self-consistent narrative. But, notably, we don't know how long this design philosophy will hold. It's been rare that the same senior development team held over for two games in a row in this franchise, and they next one could easily go back to disregarding whatever key details get in the way of the story they want to tell (or not get too caught up in telling), or dismiss them just for the sake of other design priorities.

Tira's inclusion doesn't clash with anything, as her backstory was already written to cover back to the Evil Seed, and she was a fully-fledged assassin from the age of nine. So, this is just us seeing her origin story in-game for the first time, really.
Except Tira looks the same age (if not older) than she did in SCIII, despite being introduced into the plot several years earlier, so this is, if anything, evidence that even now the devs are not getting too caught up on these little details (nor should they, where it comes to whether or not to add a character).

They can both be in the same game where the transformation occurs, if they are one in the same, but unless Viola regains her memories and is able to regain her training with a rapier, there isn't a lorewise explanation as to how they could both exist if they are the same person, so after she becomes Viola, she's stuck as Viola, and it's a one-way trip.
Let's assume that there needs to be a lore-based explanation for their both being in the game--I don't think that's necesarily the case even here, let alone with a future game made by a different team, especially given the propensity of this series to accommodate split personalities, and the fact that most fans don't care a whit, but let's pretend for a moment that's super important and is going to stay important for PS. Even then, there are ways to allow for both. Let's say for example (and this is definitely something we don't know right now, but for the sake of argument...) that Amy is transformed into Viola in this game. She could just change back in the next game (and as far as things that don't make a whole lot of sense in the Soulcalibur universe, her immediately being able to pick up a rapier--or more accurately, an épée de cour/colichemarde--doesn't even make it into the top five hundred thousand things we might take exception to as a matter of logic!). It will be another 10-12 years before they have to worry about then coming up with another reason to have both in a third game in a row, if they even want to.

But beyond any hand-wringing about finding an "in-cannon" explanation for having both be present int he same game, I'm curious to understand why this even matters to some players. I mean, for example, if you can't stand a roster which allows people in a multiplayer game to fight with certain characters unless all of those characters have a story arc in the game and could have encountered one-another within it...why does your mind not have similar conniptions when say Seong Mi-na faces off again...Seong Mi-na? Or Cervants faces Cervantes? Why is that "ok", but Viola and Amy being available in the some menu select to fight eachother multiplayer is not "ok"? And before you say "Well maybe it's an internal vision fight" or whatever, bear in mind that this explanation could just as easily apply to any other match-up that is viewed as objectionable.

Now maybe I'm reading your comments wrong here, and you really don't personally care whether or not continuity is satisfied in these circumstances--you're just pointing out that it seems to be somewhat important to the SCVI dev team with regard to the characters released so far. But I do think you've previously said that you prefer a roster to be only composed of characters who work together in a strict story sense, so if possible, can you explain to me why (from the perspective of such players) some discontinuities (mirror matches) are acceptable in the multiplayer modes, but others aren't? Isn't it possible you're being just a bit nerdy-OCD in a context where it's not particularly well-warranted?
 

Kyoju_Saru

[03] Disciple
Hate to be that guy, but technically it was never stated Amy actually was viola. Perhaps they just look similar, they could easily introduce viola at some point as a different character altogether.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
Hate to be that guy, but technically it was never stated Amy actually was viola. Perhaps they just look similar, they could easily introduce viola at some point as a different character altogether.
I'm guessing you are unfamiliar with the recent revelations: Amy's SCVI pre-release materials have provided substantial (if not outright) confirmation of what was just a theory in SCV. We still don't know the exact nature of how Amy becomes Viola, but it's no longer mere speculation--there is a connection.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
@Rusted Blade I feel like a lot of your disagreements are semantic, but I'm not saying that in a way to discredit you, just saying it's looking at it in a different light. As one of those people who does perhaps care too much about the story, I disagree that SoulCalibur VI is the first time it's taking itself seriously. I don't think it's an either this or that scenario on it all being canon or some of it being non-canon as a what-if multiverse theory, but it's still true that in every game, one (sometimes two) ending(s) is (are) canon, and we move forward accepting that canon, and in that way, every game is linked to one another, and they keep the previous game stories in mind for the stories that follow. It's just been a mess because of the inherent difficulty in separating fact from fiction, as it were, what is canon and what is not canon. I prefer it this way, and I hope the SoulCalibur VI narrative design philosophy stays.

Tira's appearance, as well as Yoshimitsu the First having Yoshimitsu the Second's weaponry, as well as Sophitia/Xianghua/Kilik taking some from Pyrrha/Leixia/Xiba as some sort of time paradox, and other such inaccuracies, are quite simply brought about by budget restriction limitations. It was easier to reuse models from SoulCalibur V than make all new ones, and so of course they would. Same for reusing things from SoulCalibur IV, it's far easier to do this than to go back any further and pull things from SoulCalibur III and before, since they are before the jump to HD. Given unlimited time and budget, it would be certain that all new models and animations would be made in each game, but that just isn't realistic.

As far as lore implication of mirror matches versus two different characters of the same identity fighting each other goes, this would be a classic example of gameplay and story segregation, where it doesn't really matter, and I don't think anyone would go so far as to advocate for the forbidding of mirror matches in fighting games, because that would be crossing the line, but I'd still say there is something to having characters that can't possibly coexist being held to a different standard than just mirror matches.

SoulCalibur V pushed this line to the furthest extreme in the series's history in Pyrrha and Patroklos having alternate movesets but clearly the same character that can fight each other, whether or not you're considering Raphael versus Nightmare in the same game being on the same level, you have to admit that Pyrrha fighting Pyrrha Omega or Patroklos fighting Alpha Patroklos is just goofy, taking the mirror match concept up to new heights by technically being a mirror match though also not being a mirror match at the same time. But even so, these characters did exist at the same time in the same game, so it's acceptable, in and of itself, in the game where the overlap occurs, but the issue comes up in the game that follows.

If we'll say, for the sake of argument, that SoulCalibur VI picked up after SoulCalibur V, then Patroklos would just be Alpha Patroklos and Pyrrha would be... it's kind of hard to say, but maybe somewhere between Pyrrha and Pyrrha Omega, considering she kept her demon arm but she did calm down and isn't full rage explosion as she was under the effects of Soul Edge. Patroklos would still know how to use a sword and shield, sure, but his pure style is that of the iai blade, what he trained on with Setsuka and grew up with. He got over his "holy warrior" phase where he was emulating his mother, so there would be no reason for him to go back to using a sword and shield. So it would have been weird to keep both incarnations of both of these characters, as there would be no justifiable reason for them to do so, really.

As an aside, I don't really know what you're getting at about Amy picking up a rapier and being able to wield it being unbelievable. She had prior experience defending herself with knives, which isn't a rapier, no, but she had an arc in Raphael's story where she was trained specifically to use a rapier in his style, so it's not like she just magically learned how, she had training and learned, just like anyone else did in this series.

So, getting back to the relationship of Amy and Viola, if it was/is revealed that they are one in the same, and Amy forgets herself and her training and becomes Viola, losing her identity, she becomes a new person, by all respects. So her existence changes over, and unless there is some plotline that unlocks her memories, restoring her knowledge of how to use a rapier, then there's no justification that Viola would exist as Amy in the next game, similarly to the evolution above of Pyrrha and Patroklos, the characters have transcended themselves and moved forward. Other characters are the same way, the best example being Aeon. First he ditched the sword for an axe, then he ditched the shield and took up a second axe. They didn't bring back the older variants because he had moved on, and there's no returning to the way he was before.

So I'm not going so far as to say that I personally would be bothered by an anachronistic cast with paradoxes that couldn't exist, but historically speaking, this is how the games have been, even before they stopped putting non-canon story in. Now that they are putting only canon story in, it seems even less likely that they would break their continuity by including a character or a form of a character that no longer exists in the roster. It's not about what I would want or expect, but what they would reasonably do. I'm only going by what has already happened to form my expectations.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
So when Amy's soul chronicle comes out, can we all promise to take it at face value and not be obtuse about it?
In the moon Amy's Soul Chronicle, I we'll see everything...
(hopefully)

But really, I'm prepared for whatever we'll get, and I'll align myself to the canon, as I always have. If they leave blanks to be filled in, I will speculate, but with a level of reason that would make Azwel proud of humanity. I have different possibilities considered as to what will happen, and I'm not going to push the clone theory if there's no evidence to support it, or especially if they deny it outright, as that would just be foolish. If they are confirmed to be one in the same, as a premonition of the future to come, then what I said in my previous post stands to my expectations of the future, if Amy ceases to exist, so be it, I don't want that future, and I don't think Project Soul does either, so they'll come up with some way to have them both exist, to please both fanbases.

More than anything, I'm just excited to see whatever it is that we'll be getting. I don't really agree that Amy wasn't a serious character before, as I've seen it said by different people in different places, but I'll at least say that I'm happy that it's becoming more apparent that Amy really is a serious character with actual implications on the story at large, where she was cast in the shadows of texts that people wouldn't have inclination to read, if they're not super involved with the lore and knowing all of the details. It's great to have all the characters, not just Amy, laid out to show what they do bring to the whole.
 

Ave

[12] Conqueror
It would be nice if Viola wasn’t actually Amy. Her SCV design was taller, with different facial features and larger breasts than Amy, but of course for some reason the artwork never reflected her ingame model.

That’s not to say I don’t wish for them to be related however. I think it would be really cool to take a more artistic approach to differentiating Amy and Viola (to justify having both in one game) while not going the cliché anachronistic clone route.

It would be cooler, in my opinion, if instead of a clone or being an amnesiac Amy, Viola was actually Amy’s older sister, separated when they were orphaned with Viola ending up as a wandering mystic who traded her traumatic childhood memories for magical powers.

Though, I doubt they will go for anything like that and will rather just confirm Viola = Amy 🙄
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
I prefer it this way, and I hope the SoulCalibur VI narrative design philosophy stays.
But see, I feel you're conflating two entirely different design features, one of which I agree is an improvement if anything, and another which I believe serves no utilitarian purpose in the game except to serve a certain anal retentive mindset. The fact that SCVI is trying to pull the disparate threads of the chaotic story together, attempting to reweave them into a tighter narrative (where what you see is a part of a holistic story, as opposed to mutually exclusive solo stories), is fine. I mean, I didn't need it to enjoy a Soulcalibur game and I certainly think they went way overboard on how much of the budget they spent on a story that's...I mean, still just a Soulcalibur type plot at the end of the day, even if a little bit more neatly arranged. But I guess I can't disagree that it's an improvement. At least newcomers this time around will come away with a clear impression of what happens to whom, when. The story is still incredibly risible though.

But then you've also conjoined to this the importance of having a story for every character, period. Or them needing to meet a strict character continuity test before they are added to the roster for multiplayer. That, I don't get. If, at the end of the day (or more accurately the end of the DLC support), they could have squeezed in a few extra legacy characters, but they would neither be continuity compliant with everyone else on the roster they may fight. nor have a Soul Chronicle, I'd be all for it. I suspect that they will not do that, and that's because of recognition of the fact that this particular team does seem to want to keep everything all a bit same-era, but I think it's an ill-considered priority when advocated for. One thing you and I agree on is that a massive roster would be killer, though we disagree on the context in which it is likely to arise. But I would submit to you that, given the realities of PS's budget, there's some tension between your desire to see a fuller roster and your expectation that everybody will be perfectly contextualized.
are quite simply brought about by budget restriction limitations.
Honestly, it's a little speculative, but let's say I agree it's reasonable speculation, because it probably is. That still doesn't change what the game is. What additional changes might they have made with an unlimited budget? Who can say, but it doesn't change the form of what they did produce.
As far as lore implication of mirror matches versus two different characters of the same identity fighting each other goes, this would be a classic example of gameplay and story segregation, where it doesn't really matter, and I don't think anyone would go so far as to advocate for the forbidding of mirror matches in fighting games, because that would be crossing the line, but I'd still say there is something to having characters that can't possibly coexist being held to a different standard than just mirror matches.
But why? Can you put a finer point on it? Because it seems like just an idiosyncratic hang-up to me: both of these situations create a discontinuity that is at least equally weird with regard to any cannon. And why should cannon even matter in multiplayer, which is nothing but a contextless endless battle of the same characters, over and over, in endless patterns and variations, many of which make little or no sense?
you have to admit that Pyrrha fighting Pyrrha Omega or Patroklos fighting Alpha Patroklos is just goofy, taking the mirror match concept up to new heights by technically being a mirror match though also not being a mirror match at the same time.
No, honestly, I don't find that substantially more odd than anything I am likely to see in a random Soulcalibur match-up, and not a whit more odd than any standard mirror match-up as a thematic matter, to my senses.
As an aside, I don't really know what you're getting at about Amy picking up a rapier and being able to wield it being unbelievable. She had prior experience defending herself with knives, which isn't a rapier, no, but she had an arc in Raphael's story where she was trained specifically to use a rapier in his style, so it's not like she just magically learned how, she had training and learned, just like anyone else did in this series.
Well I think you might have interpreted my comment about this to mean the opposite of what I had meant to convey. You seemed to be suggesting earlier that she wouldn't be able to just pick up the rapier again if she got her memories back. I was saying that her being able to do so wouldn't be a particularly out of this world thing, especially in a Soulcalibur story.
So, getting back to the relationship of Amy and Viola, if it was/is revealed that they are one in the same, and Amy forgets herself and her training and becomes Viola, losing her identity, she becomes a new person, by all respects. So her existence changes over, and unless there is some plotline that unlocks her memories, restoring her knowledge of how to use a rapier, then there's no justification that Viola would exist as Amy in the next game, similarly to the evolution above of Pyrrha and Patroklos, the characters have transcended themselves and moved forward. Other characters are the same way, the best example being Aeon. First he ditched the sword for an axe, then he ditched the shield and took up a second axe. They didn't bring back the older variants because he had moved on, and there's no returning to the way he was before.
Yes, but once again, let's suppose they do introduce Viola into SCVI (still a pretty big if, honestly) and then, as a story matter, they have her change back in SCVII. Even using the strictest version of a "they definetly must have a story" test, both could be in two sequential games (three if you had some overlap of events between games). So a minimum of two games and a decade before they have to figure out what to do with the situation to keep it going.
it seems even less likely that they would break their continuity by including a character or a form of a character that no longer exists in the roster. It's not about what I would want or expect, but what they would reasonably do. I'm only going by what has already happened to form my expectations.
But multiplayer doesn't "break continuity" because it's not a part of any continuity. It's an abstract situation that serves no deeper thematic purpose than to facilitate a match-up between two opponents, and it very frequently creates situations that make no sense and would not stand up to scrutiny even in SC's silly story. Mirror matches are just the start of that. At the end of the day if they want to make the story more consistent and orderly, you can't disagree that has value even if, in this case (and I wish I knew a less crass variation on this metaphor, but I think its on point) it is mostly just polishing a turd. But when people go farther to advocate that core gameplay experience should be artificially limited to create some sort of sense of fidelity to the make believe world, that's where it becomes an issue well beyond its benefit. The roster should not suffer for an obsessive fixation with the fantasy soap opera that is the single player.[/USER][/QUOTE]
 
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ElegantRaven

[09] Warrior
At the end of the day this is a fighting game above all else and while they are undeniably putting more effort into the story side of things than ever before (don't get me wrong: the story still isn't good or necessarily well-handled, but it's obvious there is more effort here), popularity of characters and diversity in roster will still always take precedence over a roster dictated by story and lore.
 

Rusted Blade

[07] Duelist
At the end of the day this is a fighting game above all else and while they are undeniably putting more effort into the story side of things than ever before (don't get me wrong: the story still isn't good or necessarily well-handled, but it's obvious there is more effort here), popularity of characters and diversity in roster will still always take precedence over a roster dictated by story and lore.
Or should, at least.
 

ElegantRaven

[09] Warrior
Well, as of now there isn't really any solid evidence pointing towards the idea that story is taking precedence over popularity for them. There's a reason Cassandra of all characters is seemingly in the first season pass when they could have gone for Lizardman, Hwang or Rock instead, characters who actually have established storylines in the current timeframe. There's a reason characters like Talim and Tira made it at launch over those three too: it would have been easier to write those three into the base storyline but instead characters such as Talim and Tira made it before them on the basis of how popular the devs perceive them to be. Yes, they still got their specific stories filled with poorly written dialogue and badly handled time cuts, but a lot of it was made up on the spot seemingly because the devs knew they wanted them in the game due to popularity regardless. If story was their top priority everyone from SC1 would have been here first before any SC2/3 newcomers. That's just how I view it, anyway.