Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
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RyujiSakamoto
Premium Member
"Yes, of course it was one of the considerations."
It was “one” of the considerations! See guys! See!?!? That means the poll didn’t really affect the roster!!
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Uhhh, what else would he say? "No. I mean, we didn't ignore it, exactly, but it was mostly a marketing ploy and as a team of highly skilled experts in game design, supported by the modern marketing apparatus of one of the single largest entertainment products producers in the world, we made the decisions we best felt would serve the game from a design standpoint, rather than what a infinitesimally small amount of fans once said in a poll ages ago." The real answer behind the technically honest but obviously intentionally vague answer you got is both too large and not optically ideal for a platform and context like Twitter. I mean, let's entertain for the moment the notion that he actually thinks the concept of the poll having real weight with the devs is a laugh: would you really expect him to say so if that (or any other sentiment but an answer he expects to be popular with the fans) was the case? You might as well have asked a polician if he likes babies and freedom. You got pretty much only answer you were ever going to get from publicly asking this particular person that particular question: the one which assured you that your opinion matters as a fan--without giving you any actual specifics to digest.
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RyujiSakamoto
Premium Member
Well preferably not a giant axe because we already had AstaRock for that in prior games... maybe tomahawks or dual axes
Heniek
[13] Hero
Give Bangoo tomahawks or give him perhaps a gunstock club, make him actually feel like a native american character. It would do really good to add to diversity of characters as well
Project Bokuho
[14] Master
As long as he’s not 14 like Amy, we’re cool l0l
Soul
Valide Kösem Sultan
We can literally travel back in time to one of PS's meetings where they talk about the poll and how it influenced SCVI's roster and you'll still find a way to write a huge ugly block of text about how it's not the case.
sytus
[14] Master
I understand the desire for weapons more representitive of native Indians but Bangoo isn't a new character and has been established as Rock's prodigy with his ending in SC1. I expect him to have this axe, but with a moveset independent of Rock's (which is a high probability considering SC6 movesets for each character).
RyujiSakamoto
Premium Member
All I will say is that the only reason why Hwang is in Season 2/even considered at all is because of that popularity poll. It is one thing to tweet and ask for your character but the poll gave them a tangible metric in relation to the rest of the cast.
if Hwang did Algol levels bad in the poll we would have Yun-Seong by now.
Acting like Project Soul is this strategic mastermind is really baffling because we have seen their slipups first hand from 2018 to now. So many blunders and leaks. They are clearly learning as they go, as if they were more "strategic" or "PR marketing pros/gods" then we would have something on the level of tekken in terms of keeping stuff under control.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Oh yeah, you're right, my bad: asking a question of an interested party in a manner and context in which they have every reason to put a positive spin on it, then getting a predictably vague and reassuring response and then celebrating it as complete vindication of the preexisting views that were the very reason you teed up such a softball question in the first place, before finally taking a self-congratulatory victory lap is totally a valid and useful process....... Actually, it is highly useful if your only objective is to be confirmed in your initial bias; it's far less ideal if you actually want to know the actual nuanced truth, especially if you are asking that question on Twitter of all places.
Sorry man, but you just haven't presented anything that looks even remotely like compelling evidence here: you just asked an active employee on the most public of forums to either confirm that his company tots takes the opinion of every fan/stan seriously or to suggest that gasp an effort to invite fan input was actually more about optics than useful information for a company that spends tens of millions on market research for their products and has better ways to get it than a facebook poll. Seriously, again man, do you think he would really feel free to say it was anything but the first thing there, even if he felt it? That's not a rhetorical question: do you actually believe that he could have/would have said anything else there but basically what he said? Because I don't imagine you to really be so naive as to believe someone in his position would ever say anything but basically what he said, whatever the actual facts/complexity of the actual reality of the situation.
And no, actually, you wouldn't need to time travel me back to any such meeting to get me to reconsider my take on this. You wouldn't need to do anything even remotely that radical. If I were to see even one comment from one senior dev where they actually discussed in some detail their process for making such determinations and they incidentally mentioned the poll in that context, I would without reservation give that information the benefit of the doubt and take all of the specifics for granted. But that's not what you've got here, not by a longshot: what you have here is you asking a dude, in the one forum where he knows he can most easily get himself in deep shit with his employer, whether a given action taken by that company was an example of them being totally responsive to their consumer or an example of them ginning up support through viral marketing.
I mean seriously, dude, do you really imagine that was a choice for him, regardless of what he's actual views on the matter are? If so, I guess we'll just hang up the (apropos) "Mission Accomplished" banner behind you and call it a day on this topic, because your standard for evidence that "confirms" your view is so low, I stand no chance of convincing you the situation is anything but what you presume it to be, and you're certainly not going to convince me of anything with that same standard, and we're just going around in circles.
I'm sorry if a few paragraphs strikes you as too much effort in a evidence-based discussion, but I'm afraid sometimes it takes many more words to push back against a poor argument than it does to make that same argument. One can always put out a foolish, ill-informed or just hasty and poorly constructed idea in a single sentence: bringing facts, reality, and context to bear on that question often puts the person refuting the claim in a position of being more wordy. But I'd rather be verbose and rational than quippy and wrong.
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Heniek
[13] Hero
Considering how unimpactful that is I don't find it to be compelling enough to absolutely exclude the possibility of potential character reimagination. If we would have Bangoo over Rock then yeah - I think it would be basically a no brainer for him to use a giant Axe/Hammer. But if for whatever reasons we would have both then there would be a lot of overlap.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Without meaning to engender ill feelings here, Dissidia, I have to be blunt: I don't think you really know--particularly based on that comment--what you are talking about here when it comes to the methodologies of these large media corporations. These companies are now routinely scraping the major social media platforms (Twitter especially) for such information*. It's called social media analytics, and I guarantee you that it is considered a much more tangible and worthwhile metric than anything that looks like a five-year-old, limited-market facebook poll, especially in that the datasets for their contemporary techniques are truly massive by comparison and there are now AI-assisted data parsing solutions that let them see very nuanced breakdowns on what basically people are saying about specific issues, in the aggregate.
* Or more specifically, specialized firms usually do it for them, although it is going to turn into an increasingly in-house task as the relevant information technologies become more diffuse
Well, you're gonna drive me out of the pro Hwang camp at this rate, just to hope to see you explode. ;P
Nobody is saying that Project Soul are "strategic masterminds"; I have routinely criticized PS's current marketing strategy over recent years (surely you've seen me do this many times, if sometimes for reasons different from yours). Rather, what I am telling you is that to the extent that Project Soul wants to/is told to engineer their roster towards fan expectations, they have--absolutely, without question, beyond a shadow of a doubt--much better market research data to work from than a more than five year old facebook poll with a tiny sample size. Bandai Namco is one of the largest corporations focused on entertainment products in the world, with a massively well developed market research arm. We're talking serious money and resources here, so if and when a decision is made between the senior devs of PS and the executives of Namco proper to anchor a certain amount of content in this or that fan expectation, they aren't going to be using something like that poll as one of their primary yardsticks.
And maybe, like in many other ways, Soulcalibur is just not benefiting from resources being spent on it in this fashion. Or maybe PS is given very wide latitude in developing their content as they see fit, with the confidence of their corporate oversight. I can easily imagine either of those scenarios being the case, based on available evidence. The point is, to the extent they are controlling the content to meet fan expectations, they can do a lot better than that poll to figure out what those expectations are. At most the results of that poll may have stuck in the minds of some veteran devs, such that they subconsciously attribute a certain amount of popularity to a certain character. But if they actively request data from the parent corporation (or have it forced on them), you can bet your bottom dollar it is not based just (or even primarily) on something like that poll. That's just too implausible to be believed, however we on the fan side of things might want to believe that, if only so we could have something that looks like concrete evidence of where things are going, which we are otherwise starved for because of their current marketing strategies.
And that really goes to the heart of the issues I see with how consumers currently respond to companies that develop their media content: there's a huge drive towards two rather problematic extremes. On the one side, you have people like that risible nitwit that we were giving guff towards last week: the type who imagines they are always being cheated of something and that they always have something to complain about--so complain they will, whether said complaint is factually accurate or regards something the deserve to feel entitled to. For those consumers/commentators, the company is always one disapproved-of decision away from drawing the the entitled fan's ire. But then we also have the other end of the spectrum: the fans who just take every marketing move for being nothing more than what it appears to be on the most superficial level (no matter how much the context and the specific conduct argues otherwise), and can't fathom that the major contemporary media corporations that supply them with content might be subtly influencing them as consumers through viral marketing and other modern techniques that they have poured billions of dollars into developing...
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the lion's share of consumers in the game industry right now align to some extent with one of these extremes, with a largely uninhabited no-man's land inbetween. The consumers are either Pollyannas or Cassandras; the company either can do nothing right and is always out to slight us, or else it is horribly misunderstood and would never try to manipulate us. I don't find either of these outlooks particularly compelling or realistic. It really comes down to a case by case analysis, taking all context together and stripping out any bias from what we might want or expect to see. In those terms, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that the poll's primary purpose was to actually solicit market research. I think it's main purpose was to assure fans that were panicking and chicken-littling themselves into predicting the end of the franchise because SCV and Lost Swords were such a flop and cash grab, respectively. That was never going to happen, if you ask me, but people were saying it all the time around then. I think the poll was much more about enthusing/reassuring those people. But even if the poll was originally to get a bead on fan thoughts regarding roster selections, I bet it was more about confirming the general numbers of support for the old vs. the younger cast, so they would know for sure whether to reboot in the next entry. But regardless of their motives, it's now really old and really limited data: they wouldn't be shaping the content of a game in 2020 around what that small handful of people voting on in a poll in 2015.
So, by all means, if you think I am being too suspicious in my personal speculation, that's fine--but just be aware I am equally convinced you are being a little gullible in how you approach their outreach to their consumer community. And I honestly don't think there's anything particularly nefarious in their agenda with these actions: we live in an advertising age and what Namco does to generate buzz around their products is relatively mild/benign, compared against the grand scheme of things when it comes to modern market-place manipulation. But I do like to point it out when I think people seem to be taking them a little too much on the level and I think they are actually being quite cheeky.
Cheeky--that's it. Namco is cheeky. Not evil svengalis, not benevolent purveyors of content, always on the level. Just a cheeky company that loves it when they can get away with using cheap viral marketing in the place of more expensive fair, a technique they are becoming quite adept with when it comes to this particular property.
Unfortunately, it seems to me that the lion's share of consumers in the game industry right now align to some extent with one of these extremes, with a largely uninhabited no-man's land inbetween. The consumers are either Pollyannas or Cassandras; the company either can do nothing right and is always out to slight us, or else it is horribly misunderstood and would never try to manipulate us. I don't find either of these outlooks particularly compelling or realistic. It really comes down to a case by case analysis, taking all context together and stripping out any bias from what we might want or expect to see. In those terms, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that the poll's primary purpose was to actually solicit market research. I think it's main purpose was to assure fans that were panicking and chicken-littling themselves into predicting the end of the franchise because SCV and Lost Swords were such a flop and cash grab, respectively. That was never going to happen, if you ask me, but people were saying it all the time around then. I think the poll was much more about enthusing/reassuring those people. But even if the poll was originally to get a bead on fan thoughts regarding roster selections, I bet it was more about confirming the general numbers of support for the old vs. the younger cast, so they would know for sure whether to reboot in the next entry. But regardless of their motives, it's now really old and really limited data: they wouldn't be shaping the content of a game in 2020 around what that small handful of people voting on in a poll in 2015.
So, by all means, if you think I am being too suspicious in my personal speculation, that's fine--but just be aware I am equally convinced you are being a little gullible in how you approach their outreach to their consumer community. And I honestly don't think there's anything particularly nefarious in their agenda with these actions: we live in an advertising age and what Namco does to generate buzz around their products is relatively mild/benign, compared against the grand scheme of things when it comes to modern market-place manipulation. But I do like to point it out when I think people seem to be taking them a little too much on the level and I think they are actually being quite cheeky.
Cheeky--that's it. Namco is cheeky. Not evil svengalis, not benevolent purveyors of content, always on the level. Just a cheeky company that loves it when they can get away with using cheap viral marketing in the place of more expensive fair, a technique they are becoming quite adept with when it comes to this particular property.
Crash X
[14] Master
Reading this thread right now be like...
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I just really cannot for the life of me understand why he has never become a character to date. He is established so early on, well before any of the other secondary characters who got promoted to roster status (or for that matter, family members and other companions of older roster characters who just show up spontaneously as playable characters without any previous reference). He's the right age, he has context and relationships with established characters, was even rendered in Rock's cannon ending in the first game, and yet somehow, even in the entry that advanced the plot by a factor of decades, removed Rock himself from the narrative, and largely replaced old standard characters with young expies, they haven't thought him a good candidate for a playable character, ever? It's kinda inexplicable.
As for the exact weapon, I can see the argument for all three weapons that have been suggested:
- The giant axe has a certain established lore relevance to the character, but I can't imagine there is room for three separate giganto-axe wielders, and if Bangoo shows up in the next game, I have to imagine it would be beside Rock and Astaroth, not replacing one of them.
- The tomahawks (or just a tomahawk) would be a good way of keeping a certain aesthetic fidelity with the same general contours of Rock's axe, without making the styles particularly redundant; they would also make more sense for Bangoo's build, which is significantly smaller than Rock's--and it might offer the opportunity to leverage in some of Aeon's animations, which you gotta think PS would be all about--they love themselves some recycled moves now and again.
- Heniek's suggestion of a gunstock club might seem a little bit like the biggest outlier and longest shot here, but I actually like the concept quite a bit: it would fit like a glove in historical terms, and I feel like bludgeoning weapons are probably the most under-represented class of armament, relative to their prominence in historical warfare--particularly among cultures that did not have access to advanced metallurgic techniques or materials prior to contact with sustained Eurasian trade.
I guess I always assumed, based on the time period and the little details we do get about how Rock ends up stranded in the Americas that he ended up somewhere in the mid-Atlantic region of the east coast of NA, which I suppose would make Algonquin an obvious possible ethnicity for Bangoo? His costume design often skews more plains Indian to my eye, but I always felt that was best explained as just another product of the rather generic costume design of the early franchise, rather than a conscoous choice. But then again, given how travel distances are treated in these games, Bangoo really could hail from anywhere on the continent and it wouldn't be out of place, in Soulcal terms, if you said Rock traveled there to meet him.
Well, if only in that people could be forgiven for taking me as the actual 'Saviour of Humanity.' ;D
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FluffyQuack
[14] Master
I don't think Yoshie is trying to do PR speak. He's been tweeting a lot to fans lately and he seems very honest with all his replies. He's also never been very active in any kind of PR role. Okubo was basically the face of SC6 throughout its development and did a lot of interviews. I think Okubo is definitely mindful to not step on marketing's shoes whenever he talks (that said, I doubt he'd be coy about this poll either), but I get the impression Yoshie is just casually interacting with fans and reminiscing about old games.
Frayhua
[14] Master
I sure Yoshie is just trying to entertain fans daily with tweets past history of the series. COVID-19 has made Project Soul work more from home. As for Talim, I think Yoshie bought the poll up because it was Talim's birthday.
Here's Okubo taking about Talim
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I absolutely agree. I'm just saying that, when a query of this nature is put to him on a public platform like Twitter, there are reasons why his reply is pretty light on the details. He's just trying to have a pleasant conversation with fans: if asked a question of this nature, he's not going to get himself embroiled in a complex and nuanced discussion, even if the role the poll actually played was trivial; he's jsut going to say the only thing he can say in that situation, exactly what he did say "It played a role", which is technically going to be the, but so vague that it could mean almost anything in practice.
But treating that as a smoking gun that this five year old and relatively small facebook poll is a major part of the roadmap to the content of the current game is a huge logical leap from that rather vague comment. A leap that is not warranted by the evidence, especially when he could not have possibly said anything else in that position, as a pragmatic matter--regardless of what he really thinks. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that it's an open and shut case either way, but that his comment is in fact definitely not the smoking gun for either interpretation. To reach firm conclusions there, we must look to additional contextual evidence--and nobody is winning that debate any time soon because the additional details are too sparse and too open to speculation as to their meaning and relevance, and we don't all share a common base of understanding regarding how the industry works. But I'll re-assert that, despite what Soul suspects, had he been even just a little more specific and clear about the role the poll had, agrandizing it, I probably would take it for granted that he was being forthright about any details he disclosed. But that's not what he chose to say, and that is significant.
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LisaK
[14] Master
It depends, maybe Hwang will replace the 60% of Xianghua's movements with what the YS had originally..
RyujiSakamoto
Premium Member
I didn’t wait 20 years for a Yun-seong clone....
I won’t let them hold Yun-seong hostage! I won’t be satisfied with Hwang copying Yun. We deserve them both!
LisaK
[14] Master
This must be what Necrid fans said when Azwel appeared..
