Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

[Soul]

My wish for S3 would be Rock, Li Long, Z.W.E.I. and Viola. They can expand on Rock's move-list (although that might be difficult with Astaroth getting most of his grabs). He still has some moves that i really like like 6B+K.

Li Long was very different from Maxi in SCIII AE. Even the weapons are different. I played him very long ago that i barely remember my experience with him (might unlock him in SC3 and re-explore him while i wait for Setsuka), but from the videos I've seen, he seems crazy fun with much more freedom and accessibility than Maxi (what i mean by this is how several Maxi moves lead to stances. I've never played him so i'm just going by what i see and i think you get what i mean.).

Z.W.E.I. and Viola are the only acceptable newcomers from scv. Mostly because they're the only actual newcomers and the others are just forgettable replacements. Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing Z.W.E.I. back if they do him justice. I feel like they can reinvent his style. The idea can work, it just needs better execution with more imagination. In regards to Viola, i don't want to see the claw again. Amy got most of the claw moves anyways, right? I wouldn't mind making her only weapon the orb. Maybe add tarot cards? Another orb would be cool too. One is defensive (Guarding, GI, aGI, RE) and the other offensive.

 

[Rusted Blade]

1 to 5 rating for how grounded vs how fantastical the weapon / moveset is
1 is closest to historical warrior/martial artist with minimal super powers (ie their CE) , whereas a 5 is very anime / supernatural / beyond physics

View attachment 76835
Short explanations:

Spoiler

• Azwel : 5 (should be obvious)

• Nightmare: 4
• Groh: 4 (close to a 5)
• Voldo: 4 (traditional weapons, but mantis crawl + fictional blind fighting)
• Ivy: 4 (fictional sword/whip, plus a lot of near-sentient weapon attacks)
• Yoshimitsu: 4 (traditional weapons but completely fictional abilities)

• Siegfried: 3 (oversized zweihander / dark legacy)
• Talim: 3 (fictional elbow tonfas + wind superpowers)
• Tira: 3 (fictional giant chakram ringblade, revenge armor)
• Cervantes: 3 (grounded weapons, but undead superpowers)
• Taki: 3 (grounded weapons, but has a decent splash of anime ninja superpowers)
• Zasalamel: 3 (fictional weapon, but most of moveset is pretty grounded for a polearm aside from magic curses, almost a 4)
• Astaroth: 3 (oversized executioner's axe, has revenge armor and clearly super strength)

• Hilde : 2 (she can summon a spirit wolf)
• Kilik : 2 (+1 for his soul charge)
• Mitsurugi: 2 (almost a 1, but he has revenge armor)
• Cassandra : 2
• Sophitia: 2 (can also summon lightning blasts)

• Xianghua: 1
• Maxi: 1
• Raphael: 1
• Amy: 1 (rose throwing isn't that crazy relatively speaking)
• Seong Mina: 1

Thoughts?

I generally agree with your sorting: I think if I had been doing the same graphic, I would have just combiend the top two and bottom two tiers, as I'm not sure there's much more anime and/or fantastical to the moveset aesthetic of Azwel than Yoshimitsu and Groh, for example, nor much more for Mitsurugi relative to Seong-Mina. But at the same time, I see a relevant argument in your reasoning in each case for where you put them. Getting more granular in my own assessments, I would move Talim down into grounded (admittedly, I have a tonfa bias, but the core of her moveset is definitely fairly grounded, relative to the framework) and Hilde down (for similar reasons: in addition to the magic spirit wolf, her weapons, although modeled on actual weapons, are not remotely used like their real world counterparts). But those are all obviously nitpicks, and one subjective grounds: generally I would say your hierarchy holds up to scrutiny.

Okay, thank you.

I will hopefully post some designs soon on my Deviantart and Instagram. This is due to me drawing designs than making them in CaS, but I do get inspiration from it.:D

I would like to say that, as a strong portion of us are amateur (and not too infrequently, professional) artists on the CaS forum, I think you might be able to get away with posting a thread there. But don't hold me to that advice, because the main mod for that area I think tends to enforce rules fairly strenuously. Besides, there is a technically better option here--I can't attest to its traffic these days, but that's the right forum. I think no one would object if you opened a thread here in the casual forum either. But @WuHT could give a more concrete greenlight. I just want to note that I for one would like to see them when they are ready.

I hope that's insparation for a new character and not Li Long.

Now, I agree it would suck to lose Li Long's dual nunchuku style and would be even worse if they brought back the nunchuk/three-section-staff hybrid atrocity while still using essentially nunchuks in terms of simulated physics/kinesthetic movement that was used in some markets in the earliest games. But if they built a genuine three-quarter staff style for Li Long and ditched the dual nunchuku, I could live with it. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I could get behind it for variety's sake. At least it would be a grounded weapon to choose, relative to other new developments.

My wish for S3 would be Rock, Li Long, Z.W.E.I. and Viola. They can expand on Rock's move-list (although that might be difficult with Astaroth getting most of his grabs). He still has some moves that i really like like 6B+K.

Li Long was very different from Maxi in SCIII AE. Even the weapons are different. I played him very long ago that i barely remember my experience with him (might unlock him in SC3 and re-explore him while i wait for Setsuka), but from the videos I've seen, he seems crazy fun with much more freedom and accessibility than Maxi (what i mean by this is how several Maxi moves lead to stances. I've never played him so i'm just going by what i see and i think you get what i mean.).

Z.W.E.I. and Viola are the only acceptable newcomers from scv. Mostly because they're the only actual newcomers and the others are just forgettable replacements. Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing Z.W.E.I. back if they do him justice. I feel like they can reinvent his style. The idea can work, it just needs better execution with more imagination. In regards to Viola, i don't want to see the claw again. Amy got most of the claw moves anyways, right? I wouldn't mind making her only weapon the orb. Maybe add tarot cards? Another orb would be cool too. One is defensive (Guarding, GI, aGI, RE) and the other offensive.

Ugh, no thank you for me on ZWEI. I get a psycho-olfactory experience of an unpleasant smell just seeing that guy: it can only be described as a combination of: axe body spray; hair dye; the kind of sweat only a man in leather pants can produce; the desperation of whatever yaoi fan artist was interning at Namco at the time and first suggested the design; and crabs--just so many crabs.

Besides, all psuedo-joking aside, there will be a guest character--so even in our fantasies I find it helps to plan for that. As for the other three, I could happily get behind any and all of them. I am fairly certain that Lizardman is going to push someone out though: probably Li Long. And though I would say Viola has an outside chance, it is a long one. I'd be celebrating with you though, if it happened: that moveset, once balanced considerably by the final version, was one of the silver linings to that game.

 

[sytus]

Now, I agree it would suck to lose Li Long's dual nunchuku style and would be even worse if they brought back the nunchuk/three-section-staff hybrid atrocity while still using essentially nunchuks in terms of simulated physics/kinesthetic movement that was used in some markets in the earliest games. But if they built a genuine three-quarter staff style for Li Long and ditched the dual nunchuku, I could live with it. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I could get behind it for variety's sake. At least it would be a grounded weapon to choose, relative to other new developments.

You know who would be a better choice for a three section staff instead of Li Long.

Spoiler

From a lore perspective, Seong Han-myeong is the perfect candidate because he trained Seong Mina who is a staff user, is her father and Hwang's martial arts master meaning he's deeply tied to events and playable characters within the game. I'm sure there are some Soul Blade fans that would like to see his return, or if not some other character from the Seong dojo.

 

[DanteSC3]

I sort of like where you're going with Han-myeong, but also not really. He and Hwang (and Yun-seong) have always been about the dao, and M-na going for the naginata/guan dao instead is more her rebellious nature than anything else, and besides, Mi-na got a lot more training from Kong Xiuqiang in the staff-side respect, I feel, so it's not really grounded in that Han-myeong would necessarily take up the three-section staff. Korea's treasured arms are all daos/jians, after all. It's also stated that Mi-na surpassed Han-myeong in her use of the guan dao, which shouldn't be something on a master's resume.

Edit: Terms correction (Zanbatou -> Guan Dao).

 

[WuHT]

In regards to Viola, i don't want to see the claw again. Amy got most of the claw moves anyways, right?

I don't think SC6 Amy has much of Viola's SC5 animations. I could be wrong, but Amy has a lot of new attacks in SC6 while building on SC4.
SC3 Amy contributed very little (she was like 95% recycled Raph animations)
You got SC3 Amy's 66B and 3A and 236 stance animation.

 

[sytus]

@DanteSC3

He's canonically a multi weapon user, a weapon master if you will, there's nothing stopping him from having a three section staff.

 

[Rusted Blade]

You know who would be a better choice for a three section staff instead of Li Long.

Spoiler

View attachment 76846

From a lore perspective, Seong Han-myeong is the perfect candidate because he trained Seong Mina who is a staff user, is her father and Hwang's martial arts master meaning he's deeply tied to events and playable characters within the game. I'm sure there are some Soul Blade fans that would like to see his return, or if not some other character from the Seong dojo.

I'm all for Seog Han-myeong returning, and finally in a playable role, but I'm not sure about this choice of weapon. While it has variants all over the far east going back more than a millennia, the three section staff is really a weapon associated with southern Chinese arts and shaolin-quan. It is definitely trained with infrequently in some modern Korean arts, but I think that is more about it being imported along with everything borrowed from Japan by way of taekwondo in the last century, more than anything else. I'm just not sure it fits appropriately with a Korean fighter of the era--but then that is not always the strictest of barriers when it comes to Soulcalibur. Still, maybe it is just the hold cheats for Soul Edge that planted this idea in my head, but I always imagined Han-myeong as a swordsman? @DanteSC3, any lore to suggest one way or another? [Nevermind, you guys beat me to that discussion]. I think, in a purely aesthetic sense, I could easily see him with a spear as well (particularly a jangchang)?

 

[DanteSC3]

@DanteSC3

He's canonically a multi weapon user, a weapon master if you will, there's nothing stopping him from having a three section staff.

I'd need a source on that beyond daos and dao variants. Even Mi-na's weapon is really just a dao on a stick. I haven't seen much to indicate otherwise.

 

[sytus]

I'd need a source on that beyond daos and dao variants. Even Mi-na's weapon is really just a dao on a stick. I haven't seen much to indicate otherwise

There's no direct evidence of him teaching the pole arm. However the lore heavily implies that he's a weapon master and has taught everything Mina knows about combat before she runs away. If this doesn't satisfy you, then we could always ask the developers like Hideo Yoshie who has a lore book for all the characters.

 

[DanteSC3]

I have no doubts that he is a master of martial arts, I’m just calling into question his master of all martial arts. He is the master of Seong Dojang, a school known for its masters of the dao discipline, but that’s all. You do naturally pick up shades of other styles and such during training and experience, but there’s only been evidence that Han-myeong himself is a master of the dao, that’s what I’m getting at. It’s referenced that Mi-na outplays him at the guan dao, even, and Mi-na isn’t anywhere close to master level.

 

[sytus]

I’m just calling into question his master of all martial arts

The title of weapon master isn't something restricted to people who have mastered all weapons ever created as those people would never exist, but it's a title to those who cover a wide range of weapons . Han-myeong's martial arts and school are respected throughout Korea, he schooled Mina and Hwang with no indication of Mina being schooled by anyone else by the time we get to play her in Soul Edge, implying Han-myeong is a master of multiple weapon types.

 

[Rusted Blade]

The title of weapon master isn't something restricted to people who have mastered all weapons ever created as those people would never exist, but it's a title to those who cover a wide range of weapons . Han-myeong's martial arts and school are respected throughout Korea, he schooled Mina and Hwang with no indication of Mina being schooled by anyone else by the time we get to play her in Soul Edge, implying Han-myeong is a master of multiple weapon types.

But I do think it is heavily implied that the dao is where he is most skilled and renowned (it's pretty difficult to read the article cited, summarizing the cannon info on the character to date, from without coming to that conclusion), and it's certainly the weapon he utilized every time he appeared on screen and when he was last playable (as an expy, mind you, but still) so surely this is where his style would be rooted if he were to be made a playable character, even a distinct one--especially in this game that has tended to lean into the world-building and aesthetics of the early games.

 

[Angrel-San]

My wish for S3 would be Rock, Li Long, Z.W.E.I. and Viola. They can expand on Rock's move-list (although that might be difficult with Astaroth getting most of his grabs). He still has some moves that i really like like 6B+K.

Li Long was very different from Maxi in SCIII AE. Even the weapons are different. I played him very long ago that i barely remember my experience with him (might unlock him in SC3 and re-explore him while i wait for Setsuka), but from the videos I've seen, he seems crazy fun with much more freedom and accessibility than Maxi (what i mean by this is how several Maxi moves lead to stances. I've never played him so i'm just going by what i see and i think you get what i mean.).

Z.W.E.I. and Viola are the only acceptable newcomers from scv. Mostly because they're the only actual newcomers and the others are just forgettable replacements. Anyways, I wouldn't mind seeing Z.W.E.I. back if they do him justice. I feel like they can reinvent his style. The idea can work, it just needs better execution with more imagination. In regards to Viola, i don't want to see the claw again. Amy got most of the claw moves anyways, right? I wouldn't mind making her only weapon the orb. Maybe add tarot cards? Another orb would be cool too. One is defensive (Guarding, GI, aGI, RE) and the other offensive.

Viola is No.

Whatever that came from SC5, including ZWEI is a no from me.

SC5 is the cause of all the bad momentum and almost killed the series. No characters from this game for SC6, please. Amy is Viola and Amy is here so no. Viola, in SC5.

And agreed with Li Long. SC3 AE Li Long was amazing and to me, better than Maxi.

 

[sytus]

But I do think it is heavily implied that dao is where he is most skilled and renowned

That wouldn't discredit his master status of other weapons like the pole arm.

 

[Rusted Blade]

Viola is No.

Whatever that came from SC5, including ZWEI is a no from me.

SC5 is the cause of all the bad momentum and almost killed the series. No characters from this game for SC6, please. Amy is Viola and Amy is here so no. Viola, in SC5.

They are clearly setting Viola up to return at some point, so I would get comfortable with that. I think it's unlikely to happen in a SCVI season, but it's not impossible--and I doubt it will be later than SCVII (albeit, that's probably five years or more out yet). Also, I don't think it's fair to lay all of the blame for the series' momentum stalling at the feet of SCV: that was clearly a long process that began with SCIII:CE and culminated in SCV and Lost Swords. SCV gets much more guff than it deserves, imo: I was at the head of the camp that didn't care for it much at release, but in the final analysis, with the advantage of hindsight, it had noteworthy strengths.

That wouldn't discredit his master status of other weapons like the pole arm.

But as I tried to be clear about, that's not the point I'm arguing. Maybe we can speculate that he is a martial arts wunderkind/jack of al trades. I think the evidence is kind of patchy for it, but sure, it's by no means impossible. Still, he has only appeared in cutscenes and as a playable character utilizing a dao: it's pretty distinctly linked to his one and only appearance in the series as a visual matter. I just can't imagine they would bring him intot he main roster as a bearer of a completely different weapon than we've ever seen or heard connected to him before, especially in this game: I just can't see that happening.

 

[sytus]

Maybe we can speculate that he is a martial arts wunderkind/jack of al trades. I think the evidence is kind of patchy

I'm pretty sure that in feudal times, you had to be a weapon master to run a weapon school, otherwise any charlatan could set up shop. Feudal systems have a very strict hierarchy system with warriors and soldiers being above artist, traders and peasants. My point is that for him to run what is effectively a military school that is highly regarded across Korea and his daughter is skilled with a pole arm, it's fair to say Han-myeong is a pole arm master among other weapons he's mastered.

 

[Rusted Blade]

I'm pretty sure that in feudal times, you had to be a weapon master to run a weapon school, otherwise and charlatan could set up shop. Feudal systems have a very strict hierarchy system with warriors and soldiers being above artist, traders and peasants. My point is that for him to run what is effectively a military school that is highly regarded across Korea and his daughter is skilled with a pole arm, it's fair to say Han-myeong is a pole arm master among other weapons he's mastered.

I think we're still talking past each other here. Again, it may well be that one can make a good argument for the reading you give to the lore. Nevertheless, I don't think there is any chance Seong Han-myeong would be brought back as anything other than a dao wielder, given that is the weapon he used as a playable character in the only game in which he appeared as such, and it is the only weapon we can be fairly confident, as a cannon matter, that he regularly used. Especially in this game which represents all of the early characters in their most orthodox forms (other than Kilik, I suppose: his possessed aspect is referenced in earlier works, but never shown until this one, as playable matter).

 

[sytus]

I think we're still talking past each-other here.

I don't think we are. The way I'm seeing this debate is that we're making grounded arguments around the limited cannon knowledge of Han-myeong. We both have strong cases (IMO) that isn't going to lead to a victor, which isn't the point in my view, we're just idea throwing while we wait for new content.

 

[Rusted Blade]

I don't think we are. The way I'm seeing this debate is that we're making grounded arguments around the limited cannon knowledge of Han-myeong. We both have strong cases (IMO) that isn't going to lead to a victor, which isn't the point in my view, we're just idea throwing while we wait for new content.

Well, in those terms, we'll be able to run through every possible hypothetical, given the rate of content revelations at present! :D Necrid with a rubber baton, ftw!

 

[KALAFINA]

Make sure you guys use the right distinction between canon and cannon so that I don’t continuously think Hwang and Han-myeong are about to go to war.