Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

Paranormal_Oreo said:
Has anyone come up with a semi-decent tier list yet? I haven't been playing very much so I'm curious.
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I have:

Top : Groh, Seong Mi-Na.

High-Mid: Siegfried, Nightmare, Ivy, Yoshimitsu, Sophitia.

Mid: Talim, Voldo, Zasalamel, Kilik, 2B, Azwel.

Low-Mid: Xianghua, Mitsurugi, Taki, Geralt, Raphael, Cervantes.

Low: Astaroth, Tira, Maxi.
 
Soul said:
I have:

Top : Groh, Seong Mi-Na.

High-Mid: Siegfried, Nightmare, Ivy, Yoshimitsu, Sophitia.

Mid: Talim, Voldo, Zasalamel, Kilik, 2B, Azwel.

Low-Mid: Xianghua, Mitsurugi, Taki, Geralt, Raphael, Cervantes.

Low: Astaroth, Tira, Maxi.
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He asked for a semi-decent tier list, not whatever that’s supposed to be.
 
Soul said:
I have:

Top : Groh, Seong Mi-Na.

High-Mid: Siegfried, Nightmare, Ivy, Yoshimitsu, Sophitia.

Mid: Talim, Voldo, Zasalamel, Kilik, 2B, Azwel.

Low-Mid: Xianghua, Mitsurugi, Taki, Geralt, Raphael, Cervantes.

Low: Astaroth, Tira, Maxi.
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Personally, I think this is one of the better balanced SC games there has been at initial launch. I'm inclined to cluster the majority of the characters firmly in the middle tier--though its worth saying that a few of those that are unbalanced have very significant problems, either through intended moveset mechanics that have proven to be unbalanced or unintended issues (such as errant hitboxes causing whiffs where they obviously were meant to connect, that sort of thing). When deconstructing anything in a more minute fashion, I think we have to provide any such analysis with some serious caveats if we are going to try to say anything meaningful only a little over two months into the general release and when the post-release patching/balancing work still very much in its initial stages. So I personally would only speak to broad strokes and keep my categories to three --though this will still leave the majority of characters placed (accurately, I feel) mid-level:

Top: 2B, [Makes me] Groh[n]*, Ivy*, Nightmare, and maybe Yoshimitsu
Middle: Azwel, Cervantes, Geralt, Kilik, Maxi, Mitsurugi, Raphael, Seong-Mina, Siegfried, Sophitia, Taki, Talim, Voldo, Xianghua, and Zasalamel
Low: Astaroth and Tira
* Probably not entirely exaggerative to say these two are close to broken right now. Honestly, I try to credit Namco with the expert perspective when I find myself in disagreement, but seriously, why did already severely OP Groh get like twenty adjustments in one patch, and every single one of them buffs!? And as for Ivy, was the lead designer who engineered her moveset an actual sadist who is getting off on what he did with her--holy god!

I base this mostly on feedback coming from the various branches of the community, particularly well known tournament players or at least those who are well-informed on high level mechanics, but I will admit that a couple of the highs are informed at least as much by some of my own idiosyncratic experience. By comparison, the low values I give to Tira and Astaroth come from the significant number of players whose experience and objectivity I respect who have said there are just broken features here that turn a good potential character into mincemeat in high level play. Anyway, I believe this listing is roughly reflective of consensus as I've heard it expressed so far (but of course that is easier to accomplish with a simple three tier structure, and early in into balancing).
 
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Too early for 2B, but here’s where I can comfortably rate some heroes.

Top: Sophitia, Azwel
High: Mina, Ivy, Raphael, Xianghua, Geralt
Mid: Groh, Voldo, Cervy, Kilik, Maxi, Siegfried, Yoshi, Zas, Asta
Low: Talim, Taki, Nightmare, Mitsu, Tira.

Balance is pretty tight, and this was made before the recent patches, so changes maybe changes some things. The low tier group tends to rely more on gimmicky stuff or are easily defeated using some simple tricks.

If anything, the new patch probably puts Azwel more in line with everyone else. I can’t say any changes fixes Sophitia up or down, but she’s still in a really good spot. Mina is good, but I don’t think she’s high tier, but everyone says so. Too much praise for Ivy and Raph. Geralt, X are pretty safe and are really good at keeping opponents honest.

Cervy is too unsafe for high tier, but still has insane damage off a lot of stuff. Groh is debatable, but feels more limited when you know you can break him apart in AVN. Kilik might be high, AD is good, but his SC is pretty terrible. Siegfried has barely anything new feels gimmicky, but retains a few solid options. Yoshi is really solid, could be higher tier. Zas is good, but limited. Astaroth has some real potential here. Maxi feels like he has the same problems Groh has.

Talim seemingly struggles, relies heavily on gimmicky stance. Taki seems very limited and gutted. Mitsu in a similar position, Nightmare has nothing new besides SC moves which are pretty limited in function, still crumbles with 2A, 2K.
 
God Tier: Tira
S Tier: Ivy, Azwel, Soph
A Tier: Sieg, Yoshi, Night, Groh
B Tier: Kilik, Geralt, Xian, Voldo, Mitsu, Cerv
C Tier: Maxi, Seo-Mina, Talim, Raph, Asta, Zas
D Tier: Taki,

Need more data/research: 2B

=) Though I think Raph is sleeper op
 
I'd say Ivy is in the broken tier. Azwel might be broken as well (pun) but that may be due to my inability to read him.

Ivy has a powerful mix of moves for every situation. Long range? Check. Close range? Check. Dial-a-combos off of almost any hit? Check. Safe moves? Check. Fast moves? Check. Mix ups that literally telegraph mid attack motion but are low and vice versa? Check. Sweeping horizontal long range mid attacks? Check. Best super in the game? Check. Best super in the game with built in guard impact? Double check. Has remote throw that bypasses correct directional impacts due to hit box contact location? F#$@$ng check!

I should make a montage video of Ivy BS...
 
Leinahtan said:
I'd say Ivy is in the broken tier. Azwel might be broken as well (pun) but that may be due to my inability to read him.

Ivy has a powerful mix of moves for every situation. Long range? Check. Close range? Check. Dial-a-combos off of almost any hit? Check. Safe moves? Check. Fast moves? Check. Mix ups that literally telegraph mid attack motion but are low and vice versa? Check. Sweeping horizontal long range mid attacks? Check. Best super in the game? Check. Best super in the game with built in guard impact? Double check. Has remote throw that bypasses correct directional impacts due to hit box contact location? F#$@$ng check!

I should make a montage video of Ivy BS...
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You must not have played the game since the patch, huh?
 
AMillionHP said:
You must not have played the game since the patch, huh?
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Had to go re-read the patch notes because I was wondering if I missed something. What am I missing? From what I read, they made the 66a better and the remote throw is still there. Her critical is still bs.

Ah, the change to the low remote throw is there, making it better and explains why my low horizontal impacts against it were whiffing... They made it vertical...

Well, that last bullet point can go from being "whiff bs" to just outright screwing me... For more damage...
 
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Leinahtan said:
Had to go re-read the patch notes because I was wondering if I missed something. What am I missing? From what I read, they made the 66a better and the remote throw is still there. Her critical is still bs.

Ah, the change to the low remote throw is there, making it better and explains why my low horizontal impacts against it were whiffing... They made it vertical...

Well, that last bullet point can go from being "whiff bs" to just outright screwing me... For more damage...
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The CE no longer GIs everything, only certain attacks so its less reliable now i cant remember which type.

I have no idea what you mean by "low horizontal impacts". GI is universal for every kind of attack. I went into training and could reliably GI most of Ivy's 2/3A+Gs and her 2/3B+Ks. I assume that is what you meant by telegraphed mids into confusing lows.

Her 2/3A+G used to have wide range so you couldnt side step out of it. Now it doesnt catch step anymore.

The only thing she has now is 66A for a reliable wide horizontal mid. But that move has two hits and depending on where the opponent is standing, it can completely miss. Its always been that way.

A lot of her combo damage has been scaled down.
 
Okay here's my attempt at a tier list since everyone else is doing it right now.

Top Tier: 2B, groh, Ivy.

Middle: Everyone else.

Low: Tira.

2b is ridiculous. Her strings jail, she can ring out mid screen from a dashing un-see-able low. Combo's go on forever and dish out half life all day off of safe moves. Groh and Ivy I placed Top for obvious reasons. Groh is safe and has hardly any holes, Ivy is just.... nuff said. Tira I placed low because she actually feels genuinely low tier, not just a character with a few holes, but nothing but a giant hole. She needs work big time. Astaroth doesn't deserve low tier status IMO, his keep out game is good and 22B is godlike as always, despite it's whiffing issues. He is an excellent whiff punisher with very high damage combo's and armored throws. No matter what range you play against astaroth, he's a threat. I think you guys are sleeping on him big time. Clob and Rokuto both can show us how it's done. I just think you don't see many high level Astaroths in this game because he's the slowest character in the game, however he's not the most unsafe character, so that kinda balances that out. If they fix his glitches I bet few of you would think he's low after that. He's fine.

All things considered, this game is very well balanced.
 
As of right now, this is what it feels like for me (patch 1.10):

S: Raphael, Ivy
A: Xianghua, Yoshimitsu, 2B, Seong Mi-na, Kilik, Siegfried, Azwel
B: Grøh, Sophitia, Voldo, Nightmare, Maxi, Talim, Cervantes, Geralt, Mitsurugi, Zasalamel, Taki
C: Astaroth, Tira

Some of these might be subject to change, but their toolkits and my overall experience fighting them thus far makes this accurate enough for me. Raphael and Ivy are above anyone else in terms of damage & range, and have too many match-ups in their favour. Raphael especially cripples a lot of things characters can do due to his fast frames and frame advantage, and is better up close compared to Ivy. I'm not saying this out of bias, many people clearly haven't fought a competent Raphael player yet and just aren't aware of what he's capable of. The A tier characters aren't quite as ridiculous, but have more strengths than weaknesses and are still threatening even if you have match-up knowledge. The B tier characters are well balanced although Taki and Zasalamel feel slightly weaker compared to the rest. Tira and Astaroth are the only characters who truly feel weak.
 
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sytus said:
She isn't high tier and in my experience my opponents do not side step to flank me which is Mina's weakness because her strength is her verticals.
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Yeah, no. Mina has some really good step punishment with 6A and others. Arguably her big weaknesses is being relatively unsafe, largely negated thanks to her impressive range.

Still I don’t think she’s high tier, but others do, so I’ll side with them for now. Until I can get better impressions on some more characters.

Post patch, I’m pretty sure Azwel isn’t top anymore and the argument for being top with him is largely due to his 50/50s which were effectively tweaked in the new patch.
 
AMillionHP said:
The CE no longer GIs everything, only certain attacks so its less reliable now i cant remember which type.

I have no idea what you mean by "low horizontal impacts". GI is universal for every kind of attack. I went into training and could reliably GI most of Ivy's 2/3A+Gs and her 2/3B+Ks. I assume that is what you meant by telegraphed mids into confusing lows.

Her 2/3A+G used to have wide range so you couldnt side step out of it. Now it doesnt catch step anymore.
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Siegfried base hold stance auto impacts horizontal attacks, which the remote grab was considered as until the patch. Against Ivy players that spammed 66a and 2ag, the base hold stance countered both. Recently though that low grab started hitting me when I did the base guard which annoyed the shit out of me.

As for the CE, I will test but it looks like they changed it to a vertical on attack, meaning my sieg base won't counter it either now I'll see if it still autogi all.
 
Leinahtan said:
I'd say Ivy is in the broken tier. Azwel might be broken as well (pun) but that may be due to my inability to read him.

Ivy has a powerful mix of moves for every situation. Long range? Check. Close range? Check. Dial-a-combos off of almost any hit? Check. Safe moves? Check. Fast moves? Check. Mix ups that literally telegraph mid attack motion but are low and vice versa? Check. Sweeping horizontal long range mid attacks? Check. Best super in the game? Check. Best super in the game with built in guard impact? Double check. Has remote throw that bypasses correct directional impacts due to hit box contact location? F#$@$ng check!

I should make a montage video of Ivy BS...
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I enjoyed reading this
 
Apoc Revolution said:
As of right now, this is what it feels like for me (patch 1.10):

S: Raphael, Ivy
A: Xianghua, Yoshimitsu, 2B, Seong Mi-na, Kilik, Siegfried, Azwel
B: Grøh, Sophitia, Voldo, Nightmare, Maxi, Talim, Cervantes, Geralt, Mitsurugi, Zasalamel, Taki
C: Astaroth, Tira

Some of these might be subject to change, but their toolkits and my overall experience fighting them thus far makes this accurate enough for me. Raphael and Ivy are above anyone else in terms of damage & range, and have too many match-ups in their favour. Raphael especially cripples a lot of things characters can do due to his fast frames and frame advantage, and is better up close compared to Ivy. I'm not saying this out of bias, many people clearly haven't fought a competent Raphael player yet and just aren't aware of what he's capable of. The A tier characters aren't quite as ridiculous, but have more strengths than weaknesses and are still threatening even if you have match-up knowledge. The B tier characters are well balanced although Taki and Zasalamel feel slightly weaker compared to the rest. Tira and Astaroth are the only characters who truly feel weak.
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Wait a second, why is Xianghua high in your opinion? By the way, I'm new here. I want to learn the game as much as I can. Still, why is Xianghua considered good to you. I've seen some players brush her off to B tier or Low-Mid.
 
Forgon said:
The stages are certainly a step down from SCV. I really enjoy 2B's stage merely for the fact it actually feels alive... and it is filled with only robots.

--Forgon
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There's elks in that stage.

Unless those elks are robots too? I didn't play Nier
 
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