SpellcraftQuill
[14] Master
Sorry for the aside, but I never got Ivy’s masculine alts. I’m thinking that the first one could have fit Hilde better. The ballgowns suit her better.
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
- Start date
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
That reminds me, how many cheers from the audience do you think they'll get if they announce everyone's getting a proper 2P costume, complete with a trailer show everyone's in action?
Crash X
[14] Master
A couple things they could also do is improve the netcode in general and getting their shit together when it comes to balancing the character roster.
fjphoenix
[09] Warrior
IMO character roster is pretty balanced. If you’re going to complain about Ivy, Nightmare, 2b my only response is git gud. Now yoshi though i think he might need some nerfs but I haven’t mastered him yet so I can’t comment on that.
Crash X
[14] Master
But I’m not complaining about Ivy, NM or 2B at all though. In fact, I didn’t even say I was complaining about anyone specifically. Just said that the way the balance patches have been handled so far has been rather less than stellar (at least to me).
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Well your opinion is not the common one, I must tell you. I personally think this was one of the better balanced games at launch for the franchise, but it's by no means perfect and the patching has been slow and in some cases counter-intuitive. 2B has been, if anything, over-nerfed, but there continue to be profound issues with Ivy and Groh (the latter of whom has inexplicably been buffed repeatedly in every balance patch despite clearly being OP from the start, and the former of whom can only be fairly described as "broken" at the present time) and, to a much more limited extent, Nightmare and Azwel, while certain other characters are so low tier they are barely seen at all in competitive play. As to Yoshimitsu, I do think he could use a little work, but as he is the one character remaining in the base cast who still requires command over super-techy mechanics, I'm inclined to give him a bit of a pass, especially considering the issues are not substantial.
Now, as to my bonafides, I've been playing games in this franchise for more than 22 years and (as regards SCVI) I've so far managed to get two characters into the low D ranks and several more into E and F, despite having only a few hours a week to play since launch, so you will have to decide for yourself if I am "gud" enough to have an opinion on balancing, though I'd suggest you don't expect myself or anyone else to treat such a flippant dismissal of concerns as very legitimate or compelling argument. No fighter comes out of the gates perfectly balanced, of course, and again, I think this is actually a pretty decent entry in that regard. But is there still need for improvement here? Oh hell yeah.
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darkwings13
[14] Master
No worries friend! Yes, you're right I was definitely thinking of her red dress 3P outfit lol. :D
Saying that it makes me sad actually :/ How we got THREE outfits for many of the characters in SCII and here we only get 1 in SCVI. It sucks as much as the lack of stages >.<
Crash X
[14] Master
What I really want to know for Groh is WHY they keep giving him buffs every patch when he’s already been a consistently solid character since day 1. After all, I don’t know anyone who requested buffs for him.
As for Azwel he’s fallen out of favour ever since the first update where he couldn’t pull off his zoning consistently anymore. Now barely anyone plays him. Nightmare unfortunately has become a constant victim of outcry because those same people couldn’t be bothered to take him into the lab and work their way around him. Same thing happened to Sieg and Voldo in this current patch.
David Blain
[09] Warrior
SUDENLY Groh is low-tier, most high-skill Groh players switched to other heroes or leave game.
Now, from all Groh top-players, only OlcadanWrath remains, but he has not streamed for a long time.
Added later:
On TWITCH SC 6 channel I last saw a Groh .... I don’t even remember when I last saw him there!
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Ninjaguy446
[14] Master
Exactly this. This is best thing that SC6 could do for Season 2. Brand new 2P costumes for everyone, STAGES (classics like the Money Pit, Valentine Mansion, Setsuka's stage, Ninja stage, Raft stage)!!!, previous 1P and 2P costume packs, other SC2-5 soundtrack, and brand new character parts. If they do all of that, then this will literally be the best SC game ever, and EVERYONE will buy the season 2 pass. I'd gladly drop $40-50 on all of that.
If they could also maybe add new missions and storylines to Libra of Soul, that would be a pretty big selling point for casuals.
Considering that Season 2 is gonna have 6 characters, I imagine it's going to be quite the packed season.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
It's a mystery to me as well. I can only speculate that he is a favourite among the devs, being on of "their" additions to the legacy of the series. But whatever the cause, they obviously have complete blinders on as to the problems with this character, particularly as regards his soul charge moveset. I think they are a little drunk on how superhuman/cinematic they made him look in this mode of play and less concerned than they should be about what this means for balance as far as the gameplay itself is concerned.
I've been playing pretty consistently since the last patch, and I still face Azwel in roughly 10-15% of the matches I play, which is about 3-4X what one would expect given the roster size. I'll grant you that's still a fall-off about 75% from how common he was before the last two patches, but he still remains quite popular. More to the point, some of the issues clearly remain. The patch team did succeed in their expressly noted effort to shift him away from "Azewel", but he still remains OP and indeed, still has killer zoning that can be abused. Maybe nowhere near the similar issues with Ivy, but there's still issues.
Now you're just doing the same thing Phoenix just tried with you; "you should try labing" is just another way of saying "get gud" and (aside from making assumptions about the other side of the debate which you can't possibly know with any degree of reliability) doesn't at all address the actual merits of any substantive discussion about whether the character is in fact balanced. For my book, Nightmare is not nearly the problem that Ivy and Groh are, but if there's a third place top tier character, it's definitely him, and for similar reasons, even if they are not nearly as pronounced in his case: he has killer range and speed, great mix-up potential, massive damage output, has far too many moves with invincibility frames that allow him to make large numbers of the moves of characters that specialize in closing the distance (and need to do in order to be effective) incredibly risky, the rest of his zoning makes stepping and/or biding one's time a liability, his soul charge makes him out of control on DPS, and his CE is arguably the most powerful and versatile in the game. Again, he's not in the same tier as Ivy and Groh, by any means, but in the hands of a truly capable player, he's definitely frustrating at times, especially against rushdown characters or really any moveset without range.
Personally, I'd happily forgo any further costumes if it were a call between such items and new stages. Yes the selection is a little underwhelming at present, but at least CaS gives some decent capability to address that concern (even if the CaS parts themselves are lesser in number than we'd like). Of course, I would very much celebrate any new content at this point, costumes and CaS items included, but the stage selection...that is the truly embarassing part of the current game. Not only in that the game has the smallest stage selection in the history franchise since the first game (and I mean SE here; even SCI had more stages than SCVI!) but also as regards the variety, intricacy, detail, interactivity and immersion, and lived-in feel that we've come to expect from stages in this series. It's the single thing which most makes this entry feel generic and boring.
Of course, it's my hope that there's enough life left in the post-release work on this game over the next year and a half that something like your vision ends up being the case:
- Season two drops and we get the full SE through SCIII main roster plus the two guests and Azwel and Groh. Maybe even the SCIV additions (Hilde and Algol) and additioal guests/new original characters if there is a third season pass (unlikely, but hey, we can dream),
- The stage selection grows by 2-4 stages (including some of those classic scenarios you not above), bringing it at least somewhat close to series norms,
- Between season passes, free patch goodies, and items added with new characters, the creation item library ends up comparable (or even superior) to that of the last two releases.
- The other legacy soundtracks are added in--this isn't super important to me, but I know it would be a big bonus for some, and it would constitute virtually no effort or cost on Namco's part, so I expect they will in fact do this,
- Some new modes would be nice, particularly team battle. This does seem unlikely though: new modes are not traditionally a huge post-release fixture of DLC packages for fighters, but Namco has done this at least once recently, so who can say? I'd definitely hope that they keep such features simple and light, however, rather than wasting too many resources on libra content; it's already a dubious choice that they will invest resources in Soul Chronicles for the DLC characters, IMO.
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Crash X
[14] Master
Azwel isn’t that bad to deal with. He’s pretty good on the offensive, but in defense he struggles especially after the backdash nerf. His main way of surviving through pressure is sword and the GI/RE. Even then it can be rather subjective and risky for him. Going into a poking game with Azwel can end up shutting down his neutral and he’ll have to play on hard reads to catch a break. His zoning has gaps in it too and can be telegraphed. 66A you can duck under and it gives you the chance to whiff punish/close in on him. His spear throw can be sidestepped and it gives you the chance to edge in on him to lock him down. He doesn’t have a great low either besides his Axe B+K.
As for Nightmare, he’s not that threatening as you make him out to be. He’s a slow ass character with bad frames and no i12 and little payout on guard punishment (if he can land a guard punish at all). His strings leave massive gaps and are heavily punishable on block, which forces him to take risks in order to earn his damage. His armor isn’t very reliable either as it gets shut out by lows very easily. A simple 2K or break attack will take it out of commission. Nightmare also heavily struggles on the defensive when RE isn’t taken into consideration (which much like the Terror Charge is a crucial tool to his gameplay). He has really only one move that is really good for chip damage and that’s 6BBB while Soul Charged. You can easily get around this with a sidestep. And his CE isn’t that great either. Much like his armor a low attack will shut it out (same with an RE or break attack) and it suffers from a rather long startup and short range (especially if you charge it up for an unblockable). It’s really only used for a hard read and the meter is arguably much better saved for a Soul Charge. There are better CE’s in the game than Nightmare’s.
I’m not saying Nightmare and Azwel are bad characters (I’d honestly say they’re both good characters) but they aren’t perfect and have flaws that are exploitable, especially in the hands of someone who really knows how to deal with them both. They’re both around the middle ground I’d say.
Foot
[12] Conqueror
Neither azwel or Nightmare are "OP"
Nightmare in fact never has been. He also isnt fast the guy doesnt even have a i12 move. His armor moves can be beaten by lows, grabs, unblockables and break attacks. Not being able to play against nightmare is in fact just you not knowing the matchup because nm as a character isnt too strong.
As far as azwel is concerned he is far away from being too strong. His movement got completely butchered he lost his pushback on many moves. 6B+K only connects at close range. He doesnt have any low pokes outside of spear mode. He gets completely fucked by characters who can pressure him like taki or raphael. And his gameplan overall is pretty predictable so it really takes knowing the character to actually be able to do something. Not to speak of the fact that you can only switch to a different weapon set if you can actualyl finish your animation so if you keep him locked in spear mode and dont let him do shit he doesnt have many options aside from hard guesses or RE/GI.
You sir might wanna learn the MUs instead of acting like nm or azwel are "broken" or anywhere near top 5 @Rusted Blade
Also NMS CE is fuckin bad
Nightmare in fact never has been. He also isnt fast the guy doesnt even have a i12 move. His armor moves can be beaten by lows, grabs, unblockables and break attacks. Not being able to play against nightmare is in fact just you not knowing the matchup because nm as a character isnt too strong.
As far as azwel is concerned he is far away from being too strong. His movement got completely butchered he lost his pushback on many moves. 6B+K only connects at close range. He doesnt have any low pokes outside of spear mode. He gets completely fucked by characters who can pressure him like taki or raphael. And his gameplan overall is pretty predictable so it really takes knowing the character to actually be able to do something. Not to speak of the fact that you can only switch to a different weapon set if you can actualyl finish your animation so if you keep him locked in spear mode and dont let him do shit he doesnt have many options aside from hard guesses or RE/GI.
You sir might wanna learn the MUs instead of acting like nm or azwel are "broken" or anywhere near top 5 @Rusted Blade
Also NMS CE is fuckin bad
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Rusted Blade
[14] Master
A) I already expressly said they were not "broken" not only in my initial response to the other poster's comment, but also in the follow-up discussion. So you might consider looking a little more closely at the comments you respond to.
B) save me the arguments from authority / begging the question strategies. Crash responded to my observations by refuting key points with express details, which I respect, though I still differ with him on some key points. You're just suggesting my opinion can only be based on my not knowing my MUs because it's the cheapest, quickest way to try to assert high ground on the argument, but it doesn't actually say anything of significance in support of your impressionistic feelings on the matter.
C) As to your more substantive arguments, I'll start with the one that can be stated generally as: "Azwel can only make one move after the animation for the previous animation."--well, yeah, no kidding? You just described 95%+ of all SCVI attack animations. You also mentioned he doe snot have a particularly strong low close-up game? Does that really strike you as a problem given his span of effective range and zoning? Anyway, the question isn't "can he be countered", it's "could he benefit from further balancing". If he doesn't belong in the top 5, I'd be curious to know who you think those characters are.
As to Nightmare, give me a break on asserting he's slow--he's literally never been faster relative to the game he's in than he is in this iteration. In any event, the question isn't "is he the fastest character in the game?"; the question is "is his speed well balanced, taken together with his other assets?" And here's where I say he is too much pro than con. And again, I'm not saying he's in the same league as say Ivy for being too much a complete package, but I think any realistic analysis has to accept that there is a reason he is so well represented in both tournaments and online. See for examples this. There's plenty of other examples in that tournament, but that round says everything of relevance about the speed argument: both characters go on the offensive in their optimal manner in that round, but at the end of the day, the Nightmare player was able to make significantly fewer correct calls in a row in order to still prevail. From what I've observed (and not just from the firsthand experience of my own matches) that is typically the feeling imparted. Again, not the single most OP character by any stretch of the imagination. But not in the top 5? Give me a break--or at least some notion of who you'd but there before him.
[edit, sorry @Crash X, you somehow originally got tagged in the original response even though I hadn't intended that.]
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Foot
[12] Conqueror
an entire paragraph of nonsense again. I said "Azwel cant switch weapon sets if he doesnt finish his animation anymore" But i guess you dont even konw what his weapon sets are so ill explain it to you kiddo. Azwel has two sets of frames for every move he has. Depending on the weapon he uses last he switches to a different set which improves his frames for that particular weapon. So if you just keep interrupting him while he is a set that doesnt work against your character you can dominate him. Nightmare is only represented in tournament by players who played him forever. Using people like keev doing well with their character as an argument isnt very smart captain. Also yes nightmare is slow. Everything i read in that paragraph was just some guy who doesnt understand the characters bringing up the most basic arguments possible.
Azwel as a character was already completely fine after the first nerf they gave him. The one after that just pointlessly nerfed him again. Asking for another nerf for a character who is obviously balanced right now is just stupid
And as for your "oh gimme your top 5 pls thing" thats pretty easy.
Zas,Mina,Talim, and after that probably ivy and x for obvious reasons. And after these 5 there are still plenty of character until we reach azwel and nm
@Rusted Blade
Azwel as a character was already completely fine after the first nerf they gave him. The one after that just pointlessly nerfed him again. Asking for another nerf for a character who is obviously balanced right now is just stupid
And as for your "oh gimme your top 5 pls thing" thats pretty easy.
Zas,Mina,Talim, and after that probably ivy and x for obvious reasons. And after these 5 there are still plenty of character until we reach azwel and nm
@Rusted Blade
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I...don't even know where to start. Wait, yes I do--Zas, lmao? I guess technically you can get worse than one out of five, but...wow.
And again, as regards Azwel, any small disadvantage whereby you might eek a frame advantage when close up is of significantly limited relevance if he can keep you at range and afford time for mix-ups. And drop the "kid" bullshit already; seriously, champ, nobody in the history of human rhetoric ever leveraged that tactic for so much as one-hundredth of the advantage they thought it was conferring to their position.
Foot
[12] Conqueror
Well yes zas. Zas has already been great prepatch. Now they buffed him. He has pretty much the best CE in the game. His soul charge is also amazing. His tools are great for many situations (Reverse ringouts, Frame trapps,tech traps, zoning. Pressure, grab mixups). But yea i guess thats all irrelevant.
Unless you can actually argue about why zas isnt top 5 dont try to act like he's not.
Ill gladly explain to you what makes these characters top 5 but i guess if you dont wanna see it and keep pretending like nm and azwel are a problem i cant change that.
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Ukkesh
[13] Hero
When people say that Azwel is stronger than Zas
KageKazenami
[11] Champion
Irrelevant minor thing to add for clarification: They actually stated in an interview a while back as to why they intend to keep buffing Groh, although it doesn't quite make sense to me. The reason is that they want him to become a "Standard"/beginner character. Not that he isn't already quite simple to make use of, granted that's not a bad thing, but I fail to see how he isn't. He's solid enough in the damage department, getting in is easy enough, his Soul Charge is kinda up there in strength compared to others, he has plenty of moves to shut down opponents' movement, etc. If I had to guess who they would classify as the beginner characters generally, I'd also assume that's Sophitia, Mitsurugi, Groh eventually if he isn't already, Kilik, and Geralt. Generally they each have all of the tools they need, relatively easy to grasp to start with compared to the rest of the cast, etc.
With that said, not sure what the point is. Unless there are glaring weaknesses that aren't balanced out by strengths, I can't see the need to buff him to get him to see as much use as any of them I'm sure there are people who like him quite a bit, and I'm neutral to him, but I can't help but feel the issue may lie more in the fact it's unclear how many really enjoy his design and more importantly, whether or not people find him fun to play as after a relative time-frame. While I'll revisit him eventually, I know I personally found him quite boring to play as when I was getting familiar with him and a bit of ranked with him.
With that said, not sure what the point is. Unless there are glaring weaknesses that aren't balanced out by strengths, I can't see the need to buff him to get him to see as much use as any of them I'm sure there are people who like him quite a bit, and I'm neutral to him, but I can't help but feel the issue may lie more in the fact it's unclear how many really enjoy his design and more importantly, whether or not people find him fun to play as after a relative time-frame. While I'll revisit him eventually, I know I personally found him quite boring to play as when I was getting familiar with him and a bit of ranked with him.
Ardenwolf
[10] Knight
What they say and why they do it are two different things. Groh is like Patrokolos, he's a dev loved Mary Sue that everyone must love, however since not enough people do, so he hardly gets used, they keep buffing him in hopes that if they do it enough everyone will suddenly love their new star. Like Patrokolos they have blinders on, they simply can't consider that the character is the problem, so they keep buffing the moveset.