Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

I don’t get what people like about Groh. The guy has no personality besides being edgy. It’s annoying and his concept is not very unique and interesting compared to the likes
of Tira, Zas, Sets, or even Hilde. Also, Azwel isn’t as bad but his moveset seems like something that should only be reserved for boss characters. Overall, when it comes to new characters SC6 has had the most disappointing ones for me.
 
The biggest issue I have with Grøh is that he seems to be doomed to Setsukaism where his story is done in his debut game and will fade into irrelevance for the future games. Azwel has plot setup for the next game, while Grøh doesn’t, not really. Even his role in Hilde’s story was overshadowed by Wilhelm.
 
I don’t get what people like about Groh. The guy has no personality besides being edgy. It’s annoying and his concept is not very unique and interesting compared to the likes
of Tira, Zas, Sets, or even Hilde. Also, Azwel isn’t as bad but his moveset seems like something that should only be reserved for boss characters. Overall, when it comes to new characters SC6 has had the most disappointing ones for me.

Kinda agree overall, Groh is a bland character, i honestly don't get the appeal of the character.

There are many characters, i mean just like Tira, of course i though she looked cool at first glance, but with time like sometimes when i fight her, pick or see someone pick her: "Damn Tira is so tight", there's something going on with this character, her personality, her design, her unique moves ect, and this goes with many characters, but with Groh he's just too cheap and empty design to me, like honestly i try to see what cool in a character if i don't like him/her, but with Groh there's just none lol that my total honest opinion. His gameplay maybe cool but it's hard to tell with the character design. I would put him at the level of bonus characters in SC4, or maybe not even, hard to tell but it's not that far anyway.

And sometimes someone tells you that it's just Nostalgia that make you like OG SC characters over Groh, welp here's the thing. Example, i'm not even familiar with Samsho, so almost every character from that game are new to me, and every character i seen in this game looks cool, like anyone in Samsho would destroy Groh in term of character design and charisma if you ask me.

Azwel on other hand is cool imo, gameplay wise not my thing those kind of Pokemon boss characters, but interesting design as opposite of Groh.

Bamco are capable or worst or best tho, they made Gigas (one of the lesser cool Tekken character) and Leroy Smith (one of the coolest) in one Tekken game, so i guess they can still do the same in SC.
 
The biggest issue I have with Grøh is that he seems to be doomed to Setsukaism where his story is done in his debut game and will fade into irrelevance for the future games. Azwel has plot setup for the next game, while Grøh doesn’t, not really. Even his role in Hilde’s story was overshadowed by Wilhelm.
Don't get my hopes up. Only if there were a game that had already brought back every single other legacy character and added five more would I want to see Groh in a future game--and only then for the sake of a completionist impulse.
 
People have different tastes, what you don’t like the next person will.
That’s pretty much it. Believe it or not, there are characters in this series that I know several others like, but I don’t. Seong Mina being one of them. I’ve really just never liked her, plain and simple.

Same goes for characters that I like but several others do not. Patroklos being one. I know that will generate some controversy but I don’t care. I really just don’t hate Pat. I know others do and have their reasons for it but not everyone hates him. Just like how some prefer Natsu over Taki.

But at the end of the day, everyone has their own favourite character and we’re all going to have to deal with that. And at best we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree over stuff like this. It’s better than just pulling a Nyte and getting overly hostile about differing opinions about certain things.
 
The biggest issue I have with Grøh is that he seems to be doomed to Setsukaism where his story is done in his debut game and will fade into irrelevance for the future games. Azwel has plot setup for the next game, while Grøh doesn’t, not really.
Groh is a secret society member working from the shadows unknown to history. His role is to be the go-to partner to Libra of Soul CaS hero (also unknown to history) for as long as there will be Libra of Soul storylines in the future games (which definitely there will be).
 
Groh is a secret society member working from the shadows unknown to history. His role is to be the go-to partner to Libra of Soul CaS hero (also unknown to history) for as long as there will be Libra of Soul storylines in the future games (which definitely there will be).
And yet Azwel is a member of the same secret society, but he has far greater presence and prominence as it relates to the story at large. I’m still waiting for Grøh’s rivalry arc with Kilik.

It doesn’t make any sense for that to be Grøh’s only role, when that’s more of a job for Dion and Natalie, to be support. At that point, Grøh should just have been the Libra of Soul protagonist.
 
And yet Azwel is a member of the same secret society, but he has far greater presence and prominence as it relates to the story at large. I’m still waiting for Grøh’s rivalry arc with Kilik.
Azwel is a villain, Groh is a friend. They play direct opposite roles and are not interchangable. A friend can't overshadow the hero, a villain plays on a different plane completely.
Also Azwel has been expelled from the organisation.
At that point, Grøh should just have been the Libra of Soul protagonist.
The entire point of Libra of Soul is to be an RPG-light, attracting RPG fans. Character creation is a big part of it.
 
Kinda agree overall, Groh is a bland character, i honestly don't get the appeal of the character.

There are many characters, i mean just like Tira, of course i though she looked cool at first glance, but with time like sometimes when i fight her, pick or see someone pick her: "Damn Tira is so tight", there's something going on with this character, her personality, her design, her unique moves ect, and this goes with many characters, but with Groh he's just too cheap and empty design to me, like honestly i try to see what cool in a character if i don't like him/her, but with Groh there's just none lol that my total honest opinion. His gameplay maybe cool but it's hard to tell with the character design. I would put him at the level of bonus characters in SC4, or maybe not even, hard to tell but it's not that far anyway.

And sometimes someone tells you that it's just Nostalgia that make you like OG SC characters over Groh, welp here's the thing. Example, i'm not even familiar with Samsho, so almost every character from that game are new to me, and every character i seen in this game looks cool, like anyone in Samsho would destroy Groh in term of character design and charisma if you ask me.

Azwel on other hand is cool imo, gameplay wise not my thing those kind of Pokemon boss characters, but interesting design as opposite of Groh.

Bamco are capable or worst or best tho, they made Gigas (one of the lesser cool Tekken character) and Leroy Smith (one of the coolest) in one Tekken game, so i guess they can still do the same in SC.
Exactly! I just got introduced to SamSho and I already love most of the characters. His design even after all this time feels “empty” for me. Like he is out of place from the rest of the cast. But that’s just my opinion, not saying you can’t love the character, I just don’t.
 
That’s pretty much it. Believe it or not, there are characters in this series that I know several others like, but I don’t. Seong Mina being one of them. I’ve really just never liked her, plain and simple.

Same goes for characters that I like but several others do not. Patroklos being one. I know that will generate some controversy but I don’t care. I really just don’t hate Pat. I know others do and have their reasons for it but not everyone hates him. Just like how some prefer Natsu over Taki.

But at the end of the day, everyone has their own favourite character and we’re all going to have to deal with that. And at best we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree over stuff like this. It’s better than just pulling a Nyte and getting overly hostile about differing opinions about certain things.
I believe that SCV character's weren't bad in of themselves (mostly), they just got hit by the fact that they replaced franchise staples. As for Pat I also liked him mostly due to the fact that he was a character unseen in the series so far - a zealous protagonist that even cut down his own sister because she was malfested. Not that it mattered anyways because of all that time-travel unga bunga but still - it was something new and personally I embraced the overall idea.
 
Each game seems to have a designated protagonist and maybe deuteragonist I guess...

Edge and Blade: Sophitia and Siegfried
Calibur: Kilik and Xianghua
II: Raphael
III: Zasalamel
IV: Siegfried
V: Patroklos and Pyrrha
VI: Kilik and Groh (Chronicle for Kilik, Groh is deuteragonist for Libra)

To me, Groh feels like the equivalent to the Persona Magician arcana character (or Ryuji) buddy of the silent protagonist.
 
Each game seems to have a designated protagonist and maybe deuteragonist I guess...

Edge and Blade: Sophitia and Siegfried
Calibur: Kilik and Xianghua
II: Raphael
III: Zasalamel
IV: Siegfried
V: Patroklos and Pyrrha
VI: Kilik and Groh (Chronicle for Kilik, Groh is deuteragonist for Libra)

To me, Groh feels like the equivalent to the Persona Magician arcana character (or Ryuji) buddy of the silent protagonist.
I think you mean Sophitia and Taki for Edge/Blade. Siegfried was too busy being a bandit and father murderer to be a deuteragonist. And while we know that Raphael is the one who stabbed Soul Edge in the eye in II now, the game itself absolutely failed to tell us this, so by appearance’s sake, I would argue it’s still Kilik and Xianghua. For III, Zasalamel was the antagonist, the protagonist was definitely Siegfried. And Hilde is deuteragonist for IV.
 
That’s pretty much it. Believe it or not, there are characters in this series that I know several others like, but I don’t. Seong Mina being one of them. I’ve really just never liked her, plain and simple.

Same goes for characters that I like but several others do not. Patroklos being one. I know that will generate some controversy but I don’t care. I really just don’t hate Pat. I know others do and have their reasons for it but not everyone hates him. Just like how some prefer Natsu over Taki.

But at the end of the day, everyone has their own favourite character and we’re all going to have to deal with that. And at best we’re just gonna have to agree to disagree over stuff like this. It’s better than just pulling a Nyte and getting overly hostile about differing opinions about certain things.
Not only do I share the sentiment about Patroklos, I'll go even further in risking fanboy outrage: I prefer Alpha Pat's moveset variation over Setsuka's. Of course, I have scarcely ever played either move (the counter-pressure approach just doesn't particularly suit my play style), but to the extent I have, I just find Alpha Patty's moveset to be more fluid. And for me, everything is about the moverset; I may have fun tearing into what I see as weak design and silly stories (even by SC standards) for a few of the most recent characters, but at the end of the day I really don't care much for what a character looks like or how they are justified in the plot, not in the greater scheme. It's not that I don't appreciate story or design ingames ( I truly do in countless cases), but it's just not what I consider a strong suite for SC, nor something I expect or need from it. I have opinions about which games have carried the best plot, but for me this is a game that is a game first.
I believe that SCV character's weren't bad in of themselves (mostly), they just got hit by the fact that they replaced franchise staples. As for Pat I also liked him mostly due to the fact that he was a character unseen in the series so far - a zealous protagonist that even cut down his own sister because she was malfested. Not that it mattered anyways because of all that time-travel unga bunga but still - it was something new and personally I embraced the overall idea.
I couldn't agree more; for all the complaints levelled at SCV (plenty of them warranted), you can't say that it didn't try to up the anti of the storytelling just a little. One a side note, am I the only one who played both SCV and Xenosaga and was constantly distracted by the fact that Patroklos has Kevin Winnicot's voice?
 
Sorry, but are we talking about the same game? Because, SoulCalibur, which I have known since Dreamcast, has always been anime stylistic.

Siegfried, wielding a giant board, who also manages to pierce through him flesh... Maxi with the style of Elvis Presley... A huge number of cheerful and young girls dressed in very formal attire... Cervantes, which turns into a flying drill... Ivy and Voldo's clothes, which are sent to modern sexual hobbies... Kilik as a typical male protagonist of standard anime with shaolin monk mix up. Sorry, but somehow there are already too many anime elements that are in the series from the very first games. Even the illustrations for Soul Blade (Soul Edge) and SoulCalibur 1 look like a real anime or manga.

And, yes, I accepted Azwel and Groh as SoulCalibur characters, and I think these are well-designed characters.

Many call Groh a Emoboy? You know, I would be glad if all the emoboys were as pragmatic, restrained and rational as this Scandinavian guy! He does not set personal goals above his duty to the organization, but tries to correctly combine these tasks. Let him have pride and unfriendliness, but he is more than capable of normal communication with other people, let all the conversations be more pragmatic. And, yes, no matter how much you dislike serious boys with a low voice, the character of Groh is justified by place where he grew up, the Oval organization. . His hatred to "outsiders" is also justified by propaganda of the Oval organization. The same goes for his uniform. The Oval organization was created to resist a power of the Soul Edge, and, of course, when you encounter such otherworldly strength, you need not only to prepare, but also to advance the development forward. And, yes, regarding the "impracticality" of Groh's weapons. Since when are Double Blades considered less practical than, for example, RingBlade? Or bladed Tonfa? Or a whip sword? The Double Blade concept is considered one of the most classic edged weapons concepts. I am surprised why this style was introduced just now. Groh's inhuman power are justified by the fact that he is malfested, and this concept exists from the very beginning of the history of the game. The armor on Groh's left arm looks so "overthetop" because it was made by Azwel.

Azwel’s weapons called from the air look absurd, but that’s by design. They should look out of place because Azwel in itself should be the one who "does not play by the rules." He is a gamebreaker whose presence will mark a wrong changes and the beginning of the end. Moreover, his abilities are not taken from nowhere. During the game, we saw how Azwel himself developed his gloves, and, as a source of energy, used what exists in the series from the very beginning. Moreover, Azwel has an interesting eccentric personality, which, frankly, is unusual to see in this franchise, but feels fresh.

I know that new things may not look out of place at first glance, but if you look closer, Groh and Azwel are not so bad and banal characters as they seem at first glance. They were correctly inscribed with the setting of the game, taking into account its rules and elements. All their strengths and features are based on the fundamental elements of the series itself. In the end, it just works. And it is precisely thoughtfulness that distinguishes a good stylistic element from a bad one. Why does Zwei's summoning wolf still look out of place? Because it is not inscribed in setting. Nothing foreshadowed this wolf, and nowhere has it been explained how it works.

By the way, did you want to justify the Voldo's appearance? Well, his look plays only a narrative or symbolic role. This appearance exhibit his absurd loyalty to one person who's greatly influenced him. Ivy's design tells a different story. At first glance, this woman makes it clear that everything is under her’s control. However, despite her confidence, she herself is a slave to her own destiny. Maxi's appearance is not only referred to one famous singer, but also to the old-time Japanese delinquents. this appearance emphasizes his style, freedom, confidence and frivolity. Even the desire for revenge does not prevent him from enjoying his life as a free adventurer.

SoulCalibur is not stylized, sometimes absurd and ridiculous for nothing. This style was chosen in order to more effectively talk about the world and the characters, even through the usual battle in the Versus mode. The priority of symbolism is higher than realism in this game. And, yes, even those gimmicks of Soul Calibur 6 have their own symbolic meaning. I believe, all these effects are the sparks of a there's Souls that break out. The determination, expressiveness and will of these warriors simply cannot stand within them and turn into such representations of themselves.

Anime often presses on symbolism, sometimes forgetting about common sense. This is the strength and weakness of this media.
I don't like the argument people make that Grøh doesn't belong for looking like an "anime" character because SoulCalibur has always been stylistically anime. However, I do believe that Grøh sticks out horribly because he simply doesn't look like a SoulCalibur character. His moveset makes a hell of a lot more sense than Z.W.E.I. and Viola but his character design doesn't belong aesthetically.

The SoulCalibur series has the aesthetics of an '80s to early '90s style anime with simpler designs the likes of Rurouni Kenshin and Saint Seiya where characters look more "traditional" and draws fashion senses from the era of that time. On the other hand Grøh has the aesthetics of mid '00s to '10s style anime similar to the likes of D.Gray-man and Black Clover where characters tend to have a lot of complexities in their design to give it the extra "edge" or anti-hero like traits that became more popular.

Here is an example I could give:
d8y7s4g-01d1e583-c33e-491f-be6d-321accdc2cef.png


Both are EDGY ANIME looking characters but there's a clear difference in presentation. Guts, whose design aesthetics fits closer to Soulcalibur, has a more traditional rugged look one would expect from a medieval warrior in a medieval fantasy setting. Ragna, whose design fits closer to a Tetsuya Nomura designed Final Fantasy game, has an over the top design featuring heterochromia eyes, excess use of belts and zippers, and a more modern look that could fit a cyberpunk or sci-fi setting more than a historical fantasy.

If we look at Grøh's design: he has an over the top eye patch in place of heterochromia eyes, a sleek all black outfit with excessive straps where it doesn't need to be, and highlights done in such a way that he looks ready to be added into a futuristic or cyberpunk-like game. He even looks like he'll get along with Noctis from Final Fantasy XV better than Lars did in Tekken 7.

But honestly, I can still see Bandai Namco moving forward with Grøh and including him in future games. He just needs a bit of a design rework the next time around so he can fit more in line with the other characters.

TLDR:
Even though I agree that Soulcalibur has the aesthetics of an anime, Grøh still doesn't fit the established aesthetics of the game because he has a different type of anime look that is inconsistent with the rest of the cast. I do think he can be reworked in the future though to better fit in line with the rest of the cast.
 
I don't like the argument people make that Grøh doesn't belong for looking like an "anime" character because SoulCalibur has always been stylistically anime. However, I do believe that Grøh sticks out horribly because he simply doesn't look like a SoulCalibur character. His moveset makes a hell of a lot more sense than Z.W.E.I. and Viola but his character design doesn't belong aesthetically.

The SoulCalibur series has the aesthetics of an '80s to early '90s style anime with simpler designs the likes of Rurouni Kenshin and Saint Seiya where characters look more "traditional" and draws fashion senses from the era of that time. On the other hand Grøh has the aesthetics of mid '00s to '10s style anime similar to the likes of D.Gray-man and Black Clover where characters tend to have a lot of complexities in their design to give it the extra "edge" or anti-hero like traits that became more popular.

Here is an example I could give:
View attachment 72276

Both are EDGY ANIME looking characters but there's a clear difference in presentation. Guts, whose design aesthetics fits closer to Soulcalibur, has a more traditional rugged look one would expect from a medieval warrior in a medieval fantasy setting. Ragna, whose design fits closer to a Tetsuya Nomura designed Final Fantasy game, has an over the top design featuring heterochromia eyes, excess use of belts and zippers, and a more modern look that could fit a cyberpunk or sci-fi setting more than a historical fantasy.

If we look at Grøh's design: he has an over the top eye patch in place of heterochromia eyes, a sleek all black outfit with excessive straps where it doesn't need to be, and highlights done in such a way that he looks ready to be added into a futuristic or cyberpunk-like game. He even looks like he'll get along with Noctis from Final Fantasy XV better than Lars did in Tekken 7.

But honestly, I can still see Bandai Namco moving forward with Grøh and including him in future games. He just needs a bit of a design rework the next time around so he can fit more in line with the other characters.

TLDR:
Even though I agree that Soulcalibur has the aesthetics of an anime, Grøh still doesn't fit the established aesthetics of the game because he has a different type of anime look that is inconsistent with the rest of the cast. I do think he can be reworked in the future though to better fit in line with the rest of the cast.

Well. Good point! I guess, "Pragmatic Secret Agents" direction is taking a bit too far. But, in fact, all those design elements, no matter how much they create the Edgelord image, perform specific functions. The dark colors of clothes serve to make Oval agents more secretive at night, so as not to attract unnecessary attention of strangers or distraught Malfesteds. Regarding the belts on his chest, they are supposed to have blades hung on them, and the skin of this belt can provide good protection without adding a lot of weight. Those eye patches serves to detect the energy of the Cursed Sword in order to quickly identify a Malfested to quickly exterminate them. Each element performs its function, although, yes, the combination of these elements creates the image of Edgelord. Of course, it will be quite difficult to change its design taking into account all these tasks, but I will try to come up with something.

Groh Design Tasks: To come up with a design of a lightweight assassin that can quickly identify Evil Energy. Steel armor should be a minimum, only leather armor. Colors must be dark to be invisible at night. However, despite the restrained uniform style, the left hand should be covered in elaborate armor, since this armor was created by Azwel to hold Soul Edge Effect. Also, you need to add the ability to remove weapons so it, during relocation, doesn't interfere in the hand. I hope I don’t forgotten anything else.
 
The dark colors of clothes serve to make Oval agents more secretive at night, so as not to attract unnecessary attention of strangers or distraught Malfesteds. Regarding the belts on his chest, they are supposed to have blades hung on them, and the skin of this belt can provide good protection without adding a lot of weight. Those eye patches serves to detect the energy of the Cursed Sword in order to quickly identify a Malfested to quickly exterminate them. Each element performs its function, although, yes, the combination of these elements creates the image of Edgelord. Of course, it will be quite difficult to change its design taking into account all these tasks, but I will try to come up with something.
This is exactly it lol. Sure there's a reason for excess accessories but a character doesn't really "need" it and this is where the convoluted design shows up. Grøh has too much excess going around when most characters keep it simple. Even Z.W.E.I. simply wears a jacket now just thinking about it.
As for redesign, I would think something similar to the Night's Watch from Game of Thrones would work (I'm still salty about the way they ended the show and no I don't support the inclusion of Jon Snow as a guest character).
01eb7c0593f10a3b9be5b94a79c7ada1.jpg

An all black outfit to keep Grøh's dark and edgy motif while also giving him an outfit meant for someone from colder areas like Scandinavia. The exact costume wouldn't exactly work (ironically since it's not anime enough), but something similar to this would.
 
I don't like the argument people make that Grøh doesn't belong for looking like an "anime" character because SoulCalibur has always been stylistically anime. However, I do believe that Grøh sticks out horribly because he simply doesn't look like a SoulCalibur character. His moveset makes a hell of a lot more sense than Z.W.E.I. and Viola but his character design doesn't belong aesthetically.

The SoulCalibur series has the aesthetics of an '80s to early '90s style anime with simpler designs the likes of Rurouni Kenshin and Saint Seiya where characters look more "traditional" and draws fashion senses from the era of that time. On the other hand Grøh has the aesthetics of mid '00s to '10s style anime similar to the likes of D.Gray-man and Black Clover where characters tend to have a lot of complexities in their design to give it the extra "edge" or anti-hero like traits that became more popular.

Here is an example I could give:
View attachment 72276

Both are EDGY ANIME looking characters but there's a clear difference in presentation. Guts, whose design aesthetics fits closer to Soulcalibur, has a more traditional rugged look one would expect from a medieval warrior in a medieval fantasy setting. Ragna, whose design fits closer to a Tetsuya Nomura designed Final Fantasy game, has an over the top design featuring heterochromia eyes, excess use of belts and zippers, and a more modern look that could fit a cyberpunk or sci-fi setting more than a historical fantasy.

If we look at Grøh's design: he has an over the top eye patch in place of heterochromia eyes, a sleek all black outfit with excessive straps where it doesn't need to be, and highlights done in such a way that he looks ready to be added into a futuristic or cyberpunk-like game. He even looks like he'll get along with Noctis from Final Fantasy XV better than Lars did in Tekken 7.

But honestly, I can still see Bandai Namco moving forward with Grøh and including him in future games. He just needs a bit of a design rework the next time around so he can fit more in line with the other characters.

TLDR:
Even though I agree that Soulcalibur has the aesthetics of an anime, Grøh still doesn't fit the established aesthetics of the game because he has a different type of anime look that is inconsistent with the rest of the cast. I do think he can be reworked in the future though to better fit in line with the rest of the cast.

This is probably the best breakdown of what the issue is with Groh.
 
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