Soul Calibur VI: General discussion

MONEYMUFFINS said:
WHEN SOMEONE ATTEMPTS TO RESET THE NEUTRAL GAME WITH STEP GUARD, NO ONE "PUNISHES" THEIR STEP DELIBERATELY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A READ ON THEM. THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT NEUTRAL GAME MEANS: NEITHER PLAYER HAS A CLEAR ADVANTAGE/DISADVANTAGE, HENCE NO READ.
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You've not listened to what I said. Setsuka's 236A (or 66A) and 8B+K A are built around to punish step and that's done in the neutral. 236A isn't like Sophitia's 66A where it's a mid that can crush highs and 8B+K A stuns on run counters for a combo setup, but if blocked or ducked can lead to you being grabbed from behind as the move leaves you in BT. Safe step would neuter this kit of hers to the point of why bother using it. Both these moves are done in the neutral because I use them to catch step. If safe step was a thing, why would I bother using them and that's my point. If you disagree with this, tell me what you think should be done about these two moves of Setsuka's.

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Crash X said:
I had to do it. Sorry...

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You forgot the most apropos part...

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sytus said:
Is it? I see this debate constructive, plus I understand Moneymuffins frustration with being unable to move, can be a nightmare if someone's got you in their flowchart.
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Is it, though? There's a difference between the theoretical existence of a subject that is potentially a fruitful line of inquiry on the one hand, and the actual rhetoric surrounding that subject on the other (and boy if there has not been a week in recent history that better makes that critical distinction than this last one, though that's another and much more serious topic for another time and place!). It would be one thing if MUFFINS was saying something along the lines of "there are mechanical issues in this game that could be addressed and which, in my opinion, have hampered the balance of the game and made it difficult for me to connect with as a nuts-and-bolts fighter. That's not only reasonable, that would actually be pretty in-line with my own perspective.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE GET, IS IT? INSTEAD WE HAVE "THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE GARBAGE GAME, MADE BY GARBAGE DEVELOPERS WHO DESERVE AS MUCH SHIT AS A PLATOON OF SOCIAL MEDIA-ENABLED RAGE-NERDS, WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE OR APPROPRIATE SCALE OF RESPONSE CAN FIT INTO THE AVERAGE DAY! FURTHERMORE, ONLY GARBAGE PLAYERS WILL DEFEND THIS GAME--AND ONLY GARBAGE PEOPLE WOULD DISAGREE WITH ME ANYWAY!!"

THE PROBLEM IS, WHEN ONE CRANKS EVERYTHING UP TO 11 WITH EVERYTHING THAT THEY SAY, ALL ANYONE ENDS UP HEARING IS WHITE NOISE--AND NOT AT A PARTICULARLY PALATABLE FREQUENCY. AND VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE EXCHANGE BEGINS TO FEEL LIKE AN INVITATION TO ENGAGE IN OH-SO-VERY-SERIOUS INTERNET BATTLE, PARTICULARLY WHEN COUPLED WITH ABSOLUTIST/DON'T-GIVE-AN-INCH/NUANCE-IS-FOR-THE-SUCKERS ARGUMENTS.

WHICH, TO BE FAIR, IF THE MAIN THRUST OF ONE'S ARGUMENT IS "PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE ELSE BUT ME IS AN IDIOT ABOUT THIS", THEN THEY PROBABLY AREN'T REALLY LOOKING TO ENGAGE IN TRULY OPEN-MINDED DISCUSSION, SO MUCH AS RANT. SO (I SUPPOSE THE THINKING GOES) ONE MIGHT AS WELL RANT JUST AS LOUDLY, AS CAUSTICALLY, AND WITH AS MUCH PREEMPTIVE HOSTILITY FOR CONTRARY OPINIONS, AS WILL BE TOLERATED--AND RIGHT UP TO THAT LINE, CONSTANTLY.

So, with due respect to the general basis of your argument there, Sytus (that there's an actual topic of substance and interest to the hardcore community buried underneath), I have to respectfully disagree that this "debate" is so-far looking "constructive" in any reasonable use of that word, or is likely to turn that corner any time soon. In short, I'd save your opinions for another occasion when you're arguing with someone with reasonable perspective on the topic, whose mind, furthermore, is not already immovably decided on the matter.
 
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@Rusted Blade

Moneymuffins always talks in capital letters, it's some meme of his that he's had going since before I signed up here (even to this day I have no idea what it's about). Second he's obviously frustrated with a game that doesn't play like SC2 which he loves largely because of safe step. Now all I've done is ask him a question on how to balance Setsuka's moves considering they are designed to catch step in neutral. If SC6 was to have safe step it would make them useless. The only type of highs that would work are the fastest ones as counters, so why bother using high moves that are i18 and above with one of them being unsafe on block. For me, the impression I get with unsafe movement in Calibur is that the developers wanted to add flavour to the combat instead of it being a 50/50 poke game with the fastest moves. Some like that and some don't and I'm personally in the later camp, though I do question if step should be made a little safer. Is it i14 to the sides and i16 stepping backwards? Perhaps stepping backwards could be reduced to i14 and thus make movement more unified.
 
sytus said:
@Rusted Blade

Moneymuffins always talks in capital letters, it's some meme of his that he's had going since before I signed up here (even to this day I have no idea what it's about).
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Well, to be clear, the caps are the least of it: that is to say, if it were any one of a large number of other members of this community doing it (yourself, for example) we'd just call it an idiosyncrasy and be done with it: it's a little disruptive of a smooth reading experience, and therefore a little bit obnoxious in its own right, but if that were all we were talking about here, I think it would be ignored.

Rather it's the nature of the rhetoric, and the labeling of everyone who feels differently (from the developers to the esports scene to average player and community member here) as "idiots" celebrating "garbage" that is truly bombastic--and thereby draws all the more attention to the all-capt thing, which itself is pretty universally treated as the textual equivalent of shouting. The combined effect therefore becomes more noxious than the sum of the parts themselves. But let's be clear: the more problematic part is the wording, not the typography.

sytus said:
Second he's obviously frustrated with a game that doesn't play like SC2 which he loves largely because of safe step.
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Well, a certain amount of frustration (within reasonable bounds) is understandable. I just don't see the point of even engaging on the subject if one's perspective is that the game is top-to-bottom trash and said person can't be shaken from that outlook.

sytus said:
Now all I've done is ask him a question on how to balance Setsuka's moves considering they are designed to catch step in neutral. If SC6 was to have safe step it would make them useless. The only type of highs that would work are the fastest ones as counters, so why bother using high moves that are i18 and above with one of them being unsafe on block. For me, the impression I get with unsafe movement in Calibur is that the developers wanted to add flavour to the combat instead of it being a 50/50 poke game with the fastest moves. Some like that and some don't and I'm personally in the later camp, though I do question if step should be made a little safer. Is it i14 to the sides and i16 stepping backwards? Perhaps stepping backwards could be reduced to i14 and thus make movement more unified.
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Well, it's been an ongoing process for the series since SCII and I think the writing is on the wall after the last sixteen years and four mainline games that the idiosyncrasies that made both movement and offense so safe in II (and not just the extreme safety implicit in the frame data of the individual characters, but also with regard to things like Step-G and 2G) are not going to be making a come back. There was a moment in time where SC could have continued to evolve along this trajectory, but it was clearly rejected from SCIII forward. Now, I happen to agree with MM at least insofar as feeling that they over-corrected in that respect, and the evolution away from safety has not always been the direction I would have chosen. (And on a side note, I also am not a fan of the forced comeback mechanics that MM also takes such exception to).

But I also doubt that there is any way that a game with SCII's balance in this respect would be well-received by a contemporary competitive fighting game community. There's a happy medium somewhere between those extremes, I'd argue, but putting that abstract possibility to the side, there comes a point where one has to accept the path the developers have committed themselves to and either resolve one's self to accepting a long-term trend that the said developers are unlikely to suddenly reverse, or just finding a new franchise that is better situated to your preference in this regard, if it is a definitive factor in one's enjoyment of a fighter.
 
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sytus said:
You've not listened to what I said. Setsuka's 236A (or 66A) and 8B+K A are built around to punish step and that's done in the neutral. 236A isn't like Sophitia's 66A where it's a mid that can crush highs and 8B+K A stuns on run counters for a combo setup, but if blocked or ducked can lead to you being grabbed from behind as the move leaves you in BT. Safe step would neuter this kit of hers to the point of why bother using it. Both these moves are done in the neutral because I use them to catch step. If safe step was a thing, why would I bother using them and that's my point. If you disagree with this, tell me what you think should be done about these two moves of Setsuka's.

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SETSUKA HAS HAD 66A EVER SINCE HER DEBUT IN SC3 AND ITS FRAME PROPERTIES ARE NEARLY IDENTICAL IN EVERY GAME.

IN SC3, SIDESTEP IS -9 AND HER 66A HAS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE RANGE THAN SOPHITIA'S 66A, WHICH IS ALREADY LONG RANGE TO BEGIN WITH. SETSUKA'S 66A IS A GOOD MOVE IN A GAME WITH SAFE STEP.

ALSO, IN SC2, SIDESTEP IS -1 AND CERVANTES 66A IS SLIGHTLY SLOWER (19 FRAMES IN SPEED TOTAL) BUT IT DOES A FANTASTIC JOB OF KILLING STEP DESPITE BEING A HIGH ATTACK. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, ALL YOU NEED IS AN ACTUAL READ ON THE OPPONENT.

AS FOR SETSUKA'S B+K, IT FIRST APPEARED IN SC4 AS A+K. NOW IT SEEMS MORE USABLE IN SC6 BECAUSE OF THE LETHAL HIT AND STANCE OPTION.

TO BE CLEAR, EVEN IF SETSUKA 66A AND B+KA WERE SOMEHOW USELESS MOVES, THERE'S SIMPLY NO REASON WHY SOME ADJUSTMENT CAN'T BE MADE TO RECTIFY THAT FACT. ANYONE CAN ZERO IN ON THE PROPERTIES OF A COUPLE MOVES AND SAY THAT INVALIDATES THE NEED FOR A FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE. THAT'S SIMPLY A LAZY ARGUMENT.

TO ILLUSTRATE, IN SC2, YOSHI'S 1A SERIES IS A COMPLETELY OBNOXIOUS MIXUP. HOWEVER, I BELIEVE SC2 WOULD BE A MUCH CLEANER GAME IF ALL HORIZONTALS CAUGHT SIDESTEP AND ALL VERTICALS HAD LITTLE TO NO TRACKING. FOLLOWING THROUGH WITH THIS LOGIC WOULD STRAIGHT UP ENHANCE YOSHI'S 1A MIXUP BECAUSE THEN HIS FC 3K WOULDN'T EVEN BE STEPPABLE. HOWEVER, THIS JUST MEANS THAT 1A NEEDS TO BE OVERHAULED OR REPLACED WITH SOME OTHER IDEA OUTRIGHT.

CHANGING YOSHI'S 1A IN THIS CASE WOULD BE WORTH THE "SACRIFICE" IF IT MEANT THAT ALL HORIZONTALS COULD ACTUALLY CATCH SIDESTEP RELIABLY, RATHER THAN JUST A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THEM WORKING.

IN OTHER WORDS, EVERYTHING STARTS WITH PROPER STRUCTURE, THEN THE BROKEN/USELESS MOVES SHOULD BE ADDRESSED AFTER THE FACT. THE ARGUMENT YOU MADE DIDN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE, THOUGH, SINCE SETSUKA WAS ALREADY FUNCTIONING WELL WITH 66A EVEN WHEN STEP WAS SAFE.
 
MONEYMUFFINS said:
SETSUKA HAS HAD 66A EVER SINCE HER DEBUT IN SC3 AND ITS FRAME PROPERTIES ARE NEARLY IDENTICAL IN EVERY GAME.

IN SC3, SIDESTEP IS -9 AND HER 66A HAS SIGNIFICANTLY MORE RANGE THAN SOPHITIA'S 66A, WHICH IS ALREADY LONG RANGE TO BEGIN WITH. SETSUKA'S 66A IS A GOOD MOVE IN A GAME WITH SAFE STEP.

ALSO, IN SC2, SIDESTEP IS -1 AND CERVANTES 66A IS SLIGHTLY SLOWER (19 FRAMES IN SPEED TOTAL) BUT IT DOES A FANTASTIC JOB OF KILLING STEP DESPITE BEING A HIGH ATTACK. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, ALL YOU NEED IS AN ACTUAL READ ON THE OPPONENT.
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MONEYMUFFINS said:
THE ARGUMENT YOU MADE DIDN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE, THOUGH, SINCE SETSUKA WAS ALREADY FUNCTIONING WELL WITH 66A EVEN WHEN STEP WAS SAFE.
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You mean a counter hit from an opponent stepping who then attacks straight afterwards. Then there's zero point to 66A when there are better moves that do more damage that leave you at greater advantage at the cost of being unsafe on block. 6A+B is i14 vertical mid that has enormous range and tech crouches, or the i20 bA which is a horizontal mid with massive range (BTW it's also the bane of Voldo's Mantis. Getting Voldo players to rage quit on you because you've shut down their Mantis flowchart is hilarious). You've also got her 66B (her most iconic move) which is basically the same as 66A but is a mid, tech crouches and stuns on counter for big combo damage, so you can either make a read by counter hitting a high, or step and then 236B to get the launcher for big damage. Either way this move is far superior to 66A if safe step was in the game. There's also 66K which has better tracking, is a mid and if lands, puts her into her airborne stance for a mid/low mixup. Say we do change her 66A to a mid to better fit safe step and the moves that I've listed, that would mean 3A+B and 66A+B would be obsolete making Setsuka more and more simplified, which is kind of a problem for Setsuka as she's already pretty simple (most of her brand new stuff is incredibly circumstantial), albeit with execution. Then you come to 8B+KA which you would avoid using with everything thing I've just said is all that you would need.

Now I'm not saying that I'm against safe step because I know all to well how frustrating it is when all you want to do is reset the neutral, but I can actually see the reasoning behind making step unsafe and it's because the developers want to make character tools more interesting. My only major problem with safe step is that some characters get way too much reward, like Amy who by the look of things gets stun from fast mids that lead to a high damage combos as well as lethal hits (she's still the best character in the game even though she's more manageable now).
 
Soul said:
I honestly would be fine if that's it for characters. As long as the team still works on updating the game in terms of balance, stages, online and more. I don't want the team to disband again. :(
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I want at least four more legacy characters before I'm happy with the roster (Li Long, Rock, Aeon and Yun Seong). After that more moves and hitbox/hurtbox fixing or a proper re-evaluation of it. After all that, ideally I would like in game framedata as well as Dampierre and Algol. Anything beyond that would be a bonus for me.
 
tbh they should just move on to the next game. Nothing you can do to save sc6 if you dont wanna drastically change the mechanics.
 
Moneymuffins coming in and spitting dat truth.

Still, I'd rather have SC6 than no SC6.. for some reason tho BAMCO is using SF5 as it's template for what sells and it sucks - ridiculously stupid character models, eye-cancer inducing graphics during attack animations (can anyone even see weapon trails anymore?), unnecessarily long in-game attack animations and finishers for H Y P E, pay-to-win DLC, and turning characters into caricatures of themselves.
 
I think visuals Models character design overall look is the one aspect the game really shines at. The problems occur when you look at gameplay mechanics online play.

You got soul charge as a univeral getoff mechanic. You got Reversal edge as a mechanic for beginner that endet up completely irrelevant and serves no purpose other than that. You got Characters like Amy who are already completely stupid by design who now get access to free RIs just for collectings a couple roses througout the game. You got Siegs dark legacy a mechanic that rewards you for losing that he gets every single round.
Guard break a mechanic that punishes you for guarding which has always been completely dumb.

3D games dont need that many mechanics to have depth to them the fact that IT IS a 3D game already provides that. Tekken on the other Hand has a way better approach when it comes to that. They stick to what works only have a couple of mechanics that do specific things like wall bounces n shit. Rage Arts and Rage drives are completely fine. Where as soul charge and CEs are not really well rounded over all. Some CEs are safe on block like siegfrieds which is dumb some are i12 Like Xianghuas which is also dumb or in the case of talim have multiple hits can be cast while grounded can be cancelled dodge attacks during the startup. Make that mechanic universal for everyone if someone wastes a CE on block it should be launch punishable always.

And then we have perfect guard which is fuckin pointless the way it is because it doesnt give you enough for doing it.

Long story short the game has too many pointless mechanics that theoretically provide "depth" but actually just turn everything into a huge mess and caters way too much to "oh look so many cool effects" than actually having a fighting game that rewards you for understanding what you are doing.
 
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