Soulcalibur VI DLC Discussion Thread

The thing with terminology is that afaik in their time period they used to just call them swords.
Well, to an extent, this is certainly true. For example, when early versions of the cruciform sword first arrived in Britain, they were called longswords, even though they were actually quite short by comparison to later arming swords of the mid and late middle ages, simply because they were notably longer on average than the carolingian-style swords that preceded them. In this way, "long sword" did resurrect itself as a term several times when new words were introduced to particular regions.

However, ultimately as Europe and its warfare became more interconnected, terms became more standard--and eventually the family of cruciform swords hit its absolute limits in length (as a matter of practical construction and the ability of humans to wield them--about 400 years ago, when the largest of the great swords were developed and saw brief utility in the short span of time before warfare moved on beyond swords being an effective weapon for mass warfare, little more than a hundred years later. While the truly large great swords are sometimes depicted as a high medieval weapon in film (Braveheart's iconic two-hander that looks essentially like a claymore but with a straight guard), this is actually creative license: the great sword evolved much later in the Renaissance and thus only saw a limited period of action before it was made completely impractical by the rapid advance of technology around the same time.

At around this time, as traditional armor was also becoming obsolete, swords became increasingly relegated to roles of dueling among the gentry/aristocracy. In the late middle ages and early renaisance, the arming sword evolved into the side-sword (the spada da lato is an intermediate form of this evolution), and then ultimately into the rapier, which as a class remains today probably the single most deadly sword ever created for un-armored combat, having 1) unmatched range for a single-handed sword--actually, per the above, there was actually a time when the rapier was called the long sword, complicating things further!, 2) a narrow blade that greatly reduced the weight of the sword relative to its length, for increased manuverability, without sacraficing durability much due to new metallurgical advances, 3) a mass distribution that put the weight mostly lower in the sword, allowing for increased control, 4) versatility in the that it could be used to slash or pierce, since it was rarely used in a context where armor was in play, and 5) new and highly protective cage/basket guards. I know that games like SC sometimes present swords in terms of having advantages and disadvantages and promote the notion that every sword can be great in its own role, and none are really better than other, but in terms of genuine sword play, that's just not very realistic: the truth is that the rapier has the best balance of all possible features that you might want in a sword, presuming your opponent is not wearing armor. Uhhh, I think I've gotten off on to a tangent here...

Anyway, eventually the names became fairly locked-in across Europe with a clear classification scheme, which has mostly persisted until today. Terms like arming sword (sometimes also called a 'knightly' sword), long sword, great sword, and rapier have all had an at least somewhat distinct meaning in formal literature about warfare since then; so while its true that for a large span of time, "long sword" had a secondary idiomatic meaning of "a longish sword in terms of what we use around here these days", eventually as European swords hit their upper limit in size, the meaning of the longsword froze and soldiers of the time (as with scholars today) call only a specific type of sword of a general size and configuration a "long sword".

We can go overly pedantic in terms of naming them but (and I know the difference between those you gave examples of) to be absolutely fair - naming Geralt's swords "longswords" shouldn't be considered a stretch at all
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It's not his deffault sword but length should stay the same. Considering the proportions and overall elements of this weapon I would still call it a longsword. It would fall on shorter end of spectrum I'll give you that but it's still way over a meter long.
There is also a matter of how those look in the Witcher games and on official artworks like this
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With that kind of handle and crossguard we're most likely talking longswords
(Funny thing tho - I looked up and it seems that in the novels he was actually using one-handed swords)
Yeah, I'm not so sure about the first one: it's definetly getting there in terms of length, but is probably still a good half a foot off from the length of a proper longsword, and the hilt is odd. I can't see the scale properly in that image, but it does seem to have enough hilt to be wielded two-handed, and at the very least is a hand-and-a-half hilt. Some might call it a bastard sword, but the hilt is atypical of the weapons that eventually took that moniker.

The sword in the second image is most definitely a longsword. Indeed, aside from the hilt being a little overly ornate and impractical, it's the stereotypical definition of a longsword (at least as regards the portions we can see): the guard is heavy and about 3/4 of a foot long, the hilt more than accommodates both hands and there is a fair sized pommel.

However, its worth noting that when I said Geralt's weapons are not longswords, I was speaking specifically in regard to his SCVI weapons" insofar as he is an RPG character first and foremost, I presume you can probably arm him with a huge number of swords of various sizes in the Witcher games, but I confess that, despite buying Witcher II and Witcher III on sale, I never got more than a couple of hours into either. Maybe I'm wrong about the variety though, because I know the idea is that Witcher's use two swords: steel for combat with other mortals and silver for the various monsters they hunt, which are apparently vulnerable to the metal in the lore of that setting. So I guess you can't really run around with two proper longswords strapped to your back, so maybe he only uses one-handed swords in the game and the two-handed swords are just artistic embellishment for the promotional art?

Just to add unto the fantasy things - I remember how awfuly wrong was it depicted in Baldur's Gate. Shortsword was for something like Gladius to which I could agree but then they would call Arming Sword as a longsword whereas I think they wanted to make actual longswords into bastard sword (ugh...). But it gottena bit better with time I think
Yeah, it's all a part of that scheme that I mentioned before. I can't say for certain, because being in my forties, I was just a kid when the trend started, but as far as I can trace it (and I started pondering this question a long time ago), the fantasy scheme started (as with very much in the genre these days) with D&D: that earliest versions of that game created a scheme that classified swords as "short swords", "long swords", "bastard swords" and "great swords" and all fantasy medeval swords were meant to fit into these four categories, so long as they were "western" looking enough. Notably, one of those classes ("short sword") doesn't really even exist in history (there is a 'small sword', but that was actually a later development than the arming sword). You sometimes get glimpse of what they seem to think a "short sword" looks like in fantasy artwork of the franchise: it's a kind of broad and short blade with a stubby little guard that is used by hobbit-sized races, looking something a danish sword or a gladius.

Anyway, it might have ended there, but as silly and generic as D&D may have been, its influence is undeniable. I never played that style of role playing game, but I did play a whole bunch of RPG video games in the 80s through early 2000s (and still play the odd one every few years to this day) and virtually every single one of them uses that same basic four-size scheme, rolling just about every single-handed sword in the middle ranges into the generic category of "long sword". It's something I've long noticed, but to be honest with you, I've never bothered to have a conversation about it with another person before, because I recognize the usage is now so pervasive, that for most people, that's what the word is starting to mean. But shit, if I can't nitpick these things here, where can I? :)



Hardly a trope when the real historical white samurai William Adams existed. He's a very important figure in Japanese history.


Yes, I'm well aware of who William Adams is, but a concept doesn't stop being a trope just because it has some historical antecedents. "Trope" isn't even a critical term in all (or even most) cases: the term simply means that it represents an established pattern in previous storytelling or art which a creator has to be mindful of in their own work. And yes, the "The White Samurai" trope definitely can be a bit of a silly cliche, and is usually not treated in a manner consistent with the historical examples: the handful of caucasians who became samurai were given those positions because they brought outside engineering acumen or other useful knowledge, not because they were fierce warriors: there's a big difference between the role William Adams had as a Samurai (as a political position) and what you see Tom Cruise doing in The Last Samurai. Or for that matter, what you see in a large number of anime, and of course (in the case of this franchise) what you see with Arthur. Though I'll remind you that the entire reason I brought Arthur up is because I think he's a good candidate to visit again in a game, hopefully with a full and proper treatment at last.

Yellow is reserved only for Le Bello
Also I would love me some barbarian woman but then again I would much rather have a barbarian guy with a big hammer and an animal head made into a hat
Preach it, brother: "And the Rock cried out--no hiding place!" It's going to be great having him back in the mix: this game is hurting a bit for super heavy hitters. You know, the more I think about it, the more obvious it should have been that not only would he for sure be in season 2 (I mean we had numerous, numerous reasons to think so of course), but they even dropped some of his kit into one of the free drops without us really taking note of it. I mean, why would they be spending time working on those trinkets unless they were essentially the classic alts that we've seen added for all returning characters; just released a little in advance this time.
 
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Was Rocks clothing really included in a free update? I assumed it was in CAS pack A.

Another thing is...seeing how lore friendly they’ve been would they give him the giant Axe or the Giant Mace?

I ask this because the Mace is now Rocks weapon but Cassandra was given a new sword and shield to reflect her part in the story. Perhaps they would put his giant mace as his ultimate weapon like Cassandra’s SC4 sword and shield is for her now?
 
We don't have Rock's "clothing" as CaS items at all, yet. Just his Rhino helm from SoulCalibur IV. And that was in CaS Pack A, yes, not free.

Rock would have his Apocalypse axe as his primary weapon, and his maces (including Onslaught, likely) as secondary weapons. Aeon would break his axe during his story, during which time he would replace it with Onslaught, which could be seen as his "ultimate" weapon, if you wanted to see it that way.
 
I don’t think Amy or Cassandra got any old headpiece items from SC4 in their dlc pack right? They only got full body outfits ported over but nothing for their hair/head?

Obviously they got brand new SC6 head/hair options though but maybe this leaves room for Rock
 
However, ultimately as Europe and its warfare became more interconnected, terms became more standard--and eventually the family of cruciform swords hit its absolute limits in length (as a matter of practical construction and the ability of humans to wield them--about 400 years ago, when the largest of the great swords were developed and saw brief utility in the short span of time before warfare moved on beyond swords being an effective weapon for mass warfare, little more than a hundred years later. While the truly large great swords are sometimes depicted as a high medieval weapon in film (Braveheart's iconic two-hander that looks essentially like a claymore but with a straight guard), this is actually creative license: the great sword evolved much later in the Renaissance and thus only saw a limited period of action before it was made completely impractical by the rapid advance of technology around the same time.

It reminds me of when I started to dig deeper into the topic and was quite surprised that all those fancy weapons, armour and especially that vision of a knight in full plate were all actually Renaissance, not medieval.

At around this time, as traditional armor was also becoming obsolete, swords became increasingly relegated to roles of dueling among the gentry/aristocracy. In the late middle ages and early renaisance, the arming sword evolved into the side-sword (the spada da lato is an intermediate form of this evolution), and then ultimately into the rapier, which as a class remains today probably the single most deadly sword ever created for un-armored combat, having 1) unmatched range for a single-handed sword--actually, per the above, there was actually a time when the rapier was called the long sword, complicating things further!, 2) a narrow blade that greatly reduced the weight of the sword relative to its length, for increased manuverability, without sacraficing durability much due to new metallurgical advances, 3) a mass distribution that put the weight mostly lower in the sword, allowing for increased control, 4) versatility in the that it could be used to slash or pierce, since it was rarely used in a context where armor was in play, and 5) new and highly protective cage/basket guards. I know that games like SC sometimes present swords in terms of having advantages and disadvantages and promote the notion that every sword can be great in its own role, and none are really better than other, but in terms of genuine sword play, that's just not very realistic: the truth is that the rapier has the best balance of all possible features that you might want in a sword, presuming your opponent is not wearing armor. Uhhh, I think I've gotten off on to a tangent here...

I see we have similar opinion of rapiers. Just to add up to it - I love the common misconception that it is a light, flamboyant or even unmanly weapon. This thing is friggin heavy for a one hander!

"Anyway, eventually the names became fairly locked-in across Europe with a clear classification scheme, which has mostly persisted until today. Terms like arming sword (sometimes also called a 'knightly' sword), long sword, great sword, and rapier have all had an at least somewhat distinct meaning in formal literature about warfare since then; so while its true that for a large span of time, "long sword" had a secondary idiomatic meaning of "a longish sword in terms of what we use around here these days", eventually as European swords hit their upper limit in size, the meaning of the longsword froze and soldiers of the time (as with scholars today) call only a specific type of sword of a general size and configuration a "long sword".

Wasn't it actually somewhere in 18th century when they started to clasify them a bit more? I may be totally mistaken on that

Yeah, I'm not so sure about the first one: it's definetly getting there in terms of length, but is probably still a good half a foot off from the length of a proper longsword, and the hilt is odd. I can't see the scale properly in that image, but it does seem to have enough hilt to be wielded two-handed, and at the very least is a hand-and-a-half hilt. Some might call it a bastard sword, but the hilt is atypical of the weapons that eventually took that moniker.

The thing is that it's kinda difficult to get the proportions because of how big hands characters have in this game. I myself am a person with rather small ones so i't hard for me to figure this out. If it was up to me I would definitely increase the size of it

However, its worth noting that when I said Geralt's weapons are not longswords, I was speaking specifically in regard to his SCVI weapons" insofar as he is an RPG character first and foremost, I presume you can probably arm him with a huge number of swords of various sizes in the Witcher games, but I confess that, despite buying Witcher II and Witcher III on sale, I never got more than a couple of hours into either. Maybe I'm wrong about the variety though, because I know the idea is that Witcher's use two swords: steel for combat with other mortals and silver for the various monsters they hunt, which are apparently vulnerable to the metal in the lore of that setting. So I guess you can't really run around with two proper longswords strapped to your back, so maybe he only uses one-handed swords in the game and the two-handed swords are just artistic embellishment for the promotional art?

In the Witcher I they really made an interesting drawing and sheathing animations. When he draws the sword he actualy throws it in the air and then catches it in mid flight. When sheathing he puts it in by holding the blade somewhere in the middle. They droped that completely in next games but thtat was a really nice detail because they are just too long to draw them normally from the scabbard on the back (even less so putting them back again)
As to variety - even in SC VI his different weapons could suit different clasifications of weapons even including something that looks like some variation of kriegmesser. Tho that would still push the idea that they are more build around being twohanders imo

Yeah, it's all a part of that scheme that I mentioned before. I can't say for certain, because being in my forties, I was just a kid when the trend started, but as far as I can trace it (and I started pondering this question a long time ago), the fantasy scheme started (as with very much in the genre these days) with D&D: that earliest versions of that game created a scheme that classified swords as "short swords", "long swords", "bastard swords" and "great swords" and all fantasy medeval swords were meant to fit into these four categories, so long as they were "western" looking enough. Notably, one of those classes ("short sword") doesn't really even exist in history (there is a 'small sword', but that was actually a later development than the arming sword). You sometimes get glimpse of what they seem to think a "short sword" looks like in fantasy artwork of the franchise: it's a kind of broad and short blade with a stubby little guard that is used by hobbit-sized races, looking something a danish sword or a gladius.

I think they expanded upon weapon clasifications in later editions of D&D but tbh I never had any serious exposure to D&D system outside of Baldur's Gate trilogy

Anyway, it might have ended there, but as silly and generic as D&D may have been, its influence is undeniable. I never played that style of role playing game, but I did play a whole bunch of RPG video games in the 80s through early 2000s (and still play the odd one every few years to this day) and virtually every single one of them uses that same basic four-size scheme, rolling just about every single-handed sword in the middle ranges into the generic category of "long sword". It's something I've long noticed, but to be honest with you, I've never bothered to have a conversation about it with another person before, because I recognize the usage is now so pervasive, that for most people, that's what the word is starting to mean. But shit, if I can't nitpick these things here, where can I? :)

Well it did had it's influence - that's for sure. I remember when I was playing BG I took it as given and treated as actual clasification. Also I did actually believe that katana was the bestest sword in the universe because folding and soul magic
The positive thing is that even tho the clasification was rubbish it still had the ability to spark interested in middle ages and renaissance - it most likely did respark mine (always loved knights as a smaller kid)

Preach it, brother: "And the Rock cried out--no hiding place!" It's going to be great having him back in the mix: this game is hurting a bit for super heavy hitters. You know, the more I think about it, the more obvious it should have been that not only would he for sure be in season 2 (I mean we had numerous, numerous reasons to think so of course), but they even dropped some of his kit into one of the free drops without us really taking note of it. I mean, why would they be spending time working on those trinkets unless they were essentially the classic alts that we've seen added for all returning characters; just released a little in advance this time.

Yes, FG usually have more than one heavy character and I hope it'll end up this way in SC. Especially since I never liked Astaroth personaly (tho his quote after CE in SC VI is hella hilarious) and I think it would be nice to balance him out with a good character and Rocks fits that well. They could actually turn him from grappler (as he used to be) into guard crash machine as I like to clal it (hoped they'd do that with Cass but they did fine with her (tho I really hoped for that warhamer shield combo))
 
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I don’t think Amy or Cassandra got any old headpiece items from SC4 in their dlc pack right? They only got full body outfits ported over but nothing for their hair/head?

Obviously they got brand new SC6 head/hair options though but maybe this leaves room for Rock
They actually gave us her SC IV 2p haircut from the start if Im not mistaken. At least it's very similiar
 
They actually gave us her SC IV 2p haircut from the start if Im not mistaken. At least it's very similiar

I think I’ve spotted mitsurugi’s SC4 2p hair too. That being said I don’t think the 2p hair/head options are a big deal to the dev team considering they haven’t made any for this game!
 
I don’t think Amy or Cassandra got any old headpiece items from SC4 in their dlc pack right? They only got full body outfits ported over but nothing for their hair/head?

Obviously they got brand new SC6 head/hair options though but maybe this leaves room for Rock
Amy's roses and Cassandra's ribbon are really close enough to the extra equipment we already had, where you can argue they were already there. The only thing we don't have is Amy's skull ribbons, as far as the outfits that came with those are concerned. Astral Chaos Cassandra really does use the extra equipment, but since Amy's SoulCalibur IV appearance doesn't actually appear, we don't have her specific hair from SoulCalibur IV, which is ever so slightly different than her SoulCalibur VI hair. Still, it can be approximated.

Rock still has plenty of room, seeing as how he will very likely get a new design, if he shows up.

They actually gave us her SC IV 2p haircut from the start if Im not mistaken. At least it's very similiar
Yes, but we don't have her SoulCalibur IV 2p outfit to go with it, sadly...
 
I think I’ve spotted mitsurugi’s SC4 2p hair too. That being said I don’t think the 2p hair/head options are a big deal to the dev team considering they haven’t made any for this game!
It's nice they give us all current character hairstyles at least. I really like Tira's hair

Yes, but we don't have her SoulCalibur IV 2p outfit to go with it, sadly...
Yeah and we even had to wait a whole year for a pantyhose item so now at least we could try to remake it
 
I'm serious btw. I will change my avatar to Rock and I will put a decent amount of time playing him due to how hostile you know who have been towards the poor White giant!
 
I'm serious btw. I will change my avatar to Rock and I will put a decent amount of time playing him due to how hostile you know who have been towards the poor White giant!
I'm just gonna post a different cover of this song in the pointless rock hatefest thread every day for a week, before putting it in my signature somewhere:

 
I think a thing that might not have been considered with respects to new stages... wouldn't they need to record a new stage music for the new stage?

Obviously they will have a SamSho song for Haohmaru's stage, but whatever new SoulCalibur stage(s) they add would need new music... no? I wonder.
 
I think a thing that might not have been considered with respects to new stages... wouldn't they need to record a new stage music for the new stage?

Obviously they will have a SamSho song for Haohmaru's stage, but whatever new SoulCalibur stage(s) they add would need new music... no? I wonder.
That's always been a part of the mental calculus for me. I suppose they might adapt some of the libra music to the task, or even legacy music if it is a legacy stage, but I suspect we probably will hear new music.
 
I think a thing that might not have been considered with respects to new stages... wouldn't they need to record a new stage music for the new stage?

Obviously they will have a SamSho song for Haohmaru's stage, but whatever new SoulCalibur stage(s) they add would need new music... no? I wonder.
I've been curious about that, too. There's probably going to be new music for the brand new stages, but the variants of existing stages might just use whatever song the original stage had. Which would kinda suck, because Moon of Oblivion doesn't work nearly as well when there's no moon:

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(Side note, this stage looks absolutely beautiful. I can't wait to take a dozen Ansel screenshots there once it comes out.)

I'm not sure how viable this would be, but maybe instead of creating entirely new songs for the S2 stage variants, they could redo the existing songs with new instruments and such? It'd be a decent compromise between brand new songs and existing-but-unfitting music for the altered stages.
 
I've been curious about that, too. There's probably going to be new music for the brand new stages, but the variants of existing stages might just use whatever song the original stage had. Which would kinda suck, because Moon of Oblivion doesn't work nearly as well when there's no moon:

NKqW098mwch0I3ZjSSEZIjKxn5hnWjNf9tPReCm2mJfcr6NBqj2qniiwdWAP4i1eYgQMTG2xz9hVvu5Q.jpg

(Side note, this stage looks absolutely beautiful. I can't wait to take a dozen Ansel screenshots there once it comes out.)

I'm not sure how viable this would be, but maybe instead of creating entirely new songs for the S2 stage variants, they could redo the existing songs with new instruments and such? It'd be a decent compromise between brand new songs and existing-but-unfitting music for the altered stages.
It's certainly possible: they have done similar things before (variants on pieces with either an eastern or western strings section--erhu vs. violin, essentially). I don't know, though: this is a budget game and they are already trying to do a lot right now. I suppose it really depends on the format through which we will get the stages, which is a topic they have not really addressed as yet. If they are freebies, I think you definitely don't expect a remixed soundtrack or any such frills. Likewise if they are season pass bonuses. If they come as part of some other DLC we shall each need to purchase, then maaaaaybe? I still think it's probably expecting a little too much.

On a side note, I personally actually hope they charge for some of these stages, because I feel like if we get them to look at it as a possible revenue stream, we stand a better chance of getting more stages in the final analysis.
 
The thing that I think is odd if there are different times of day stages added as separate stages, is that some of the stages right now already have cycles, like Shrine of Eurydice and Master Swordsman's Cave. It would make more sense if they're "completing" the stages by giving all or most of them cycles, more than it being a "new stage" that's always a different daytime. You could argue Kunpaetku Temple and Ostrheinsburg Castle already have cycles, too, with the changing walls and the growing flames, respectively. So that's not something I would expect to have different music, just personally. The music doesn't change right now for the day/evening cycles on the two stages that do this already, so it seems reasonable to expect more of that, unless they add transitioning music for those as well... but then that likely wouldn't work with custom music settings, so still, doesn't seem likely.

So I'm betting Haohmaru's stage goes in our empty slot opposite 2B's, and then the other new stage... in the center? But then it's in the way of the preview window, and the current layout has a "spread" around the middle, like it wasn't meant for one to go there, but if they don't do that, then we'll be lopsided again for... who knows how long, unless they just redesign the entire thing. Though we've also got to wonder how they're going to place the next four characters on the selection screen. Two on either side of Amy and Cassandra, sure, but then the other two? I'm not entirely sure, feel like they'll have to rework both menus, which, looking at Tekken, isn't impossible, I'm just wondering what their plans are.
 
I would be slightly disappointed if they just gave us stage variants with no new music or remixes. Part of the cool things about Tekken 5 DR and SCV is that even when we had basically the same stage in new textures they gave us a new music track to give the stage a different feel.

Even then, every character had their own theme. Dampierre and Devil Jin shared stages with Pat and Ezio but had their own tracks.
 
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