STOP CROUCHING!: Throw Break Notes

Laswagga

Laswagga

[09] Warrior
As I pack my bags to head to Final Round, I decided to try to address some of my personal demons to better prepare myself for what may come my way during this week end. So I did some lab-work and came up with this tiny little idea for learning which throws to break and why i'm breaking them. My reason for posting this is because this eliminates the threat of trying to always guess which throw your opponent is going to attempt by saying to them "Listen, you're not going to use <insert throw here> on me. You can use your other one, but that one is off-limits unless I decide otherwise." What that does, in my opinion, is not only deprive your opponent of a quick win off of a ring out, or some easy-mode damage from a powerful throw but it eliminates the issue that i've seen some players have with ducking throws out of fear of getting thrown.

I understand, you just simply don't want to take the damage. Well unfortunately, a throw is just that, damage that is promised in some form or another (you even take minor damage for breaking throws now, so consider that.) But think of it this way, some characters only have access to their most damaging combos when you crouch. This is how you get baited into losing 100+ of your health bar, rather than the 50-60 (103/114 if your name is A.Pat....take that as you will) you would've taken had you just guessed wrong on the throw. This can also be said about any lows that threaten you while you stand there, refusing to crouch. I don't think there is a single low in any Soul Calibur game to date that has lead to 100+ damage for landing it. So, really, take the damn low. Don't die trying to preemptively block a low that hasn't happened yet. Block the lows as they come and don't freak out and die trying to avoid losing a few points of damage.


With aaaallll that said, i'll leave you with these numbers to crunch as you please.
Note: This list has not included clean-hit damage or side throws. Back-throws are unbreakable unless your name is Voldo.

Imma go get beat up at Final Round now. Hope this helps someone.

TL:DR

DURRRR SUM THROWZ HURT MRE DEN UDDERZ, BUT ITZ K CUZ THROWS HURT LEZ DEN DA COMBOO.


-Alpha Patroklos (B threat)
B- 55
B Command - 30 base damage, potential 103 damage with a chance of 114 if clean hits are calculated with ring out possibility. Strangely enough, it seems that this throw is not only the most versatile throw in the game, with multiple follow ups, but the most dangerous to get hit by. Who woulda thought? U mad Astaroth? )
A- 25 base damage with potential 57 and slight ring out possibility if angled properly (behind).

- Patroklos (100% guess)
A- 55 damage
B and Command B- 55 damage
Because either throw can do the same amount of damage no matter what, it is up to you to decide which throw you will and will not allow your opponent to use on you. You'll have to guess a few times to decide which throw they will go for more often than the other. The only time there really isn't a mix up to be afraid of is if you get thrown with your back to the ring out. You don't have a choice at this point, you need to break B as his Mashed command throw rings out if your back is to the edge.

Again, don't break A if your back is to the ring. There is no reason to.

-Leixia (A threat)
A-55 Base damage
B-45 Base damage, ring out possible. Break B if your back is to the edge.

-Natsu (B threat)
A- 38
B- 55
B command- 65
A command (BE)- 60 amage with Ring out possibility if her back is to the edge.

Break B, as it is the most damaging of the two and her command throw leaves her in the perfect position for oki pressure. The A throw requires a BE, if you see the BE flash break A on reaction. Its hard to do, I know, but it is a dead give away.

- Ezio (A Threat)
A- 55
B- 50

-Raphael (A threat)
A- 50
B- 45 Ring Out possible if your back is to the edge. Break B in this situation.
A Command - 59 damage, mashable for minor-health regeneration.

-Viola (varying threats, decide for yourself based on her "stance")
WO A- 45
wO B- 50
A- 20 base/58 possible
B- 40 base/Ring out possible if your back is to the edge.

-Pyrrha ( B threat unless they show you otherwise.)
A- 25
B- 50
A Command- 55

-Siegfried (B threat)
A- 45
B- 50
A-Low- 30 base damage, ring Out if your back is to the edge.
B-Low- 30 base damage, ring out if his back is against the edge.

-Hilde
A- 55
B- 50 base damage, ring out if her back is to the edge.

-Xiba (A threat)
A- 55
b- 50

-Ivy (B threat)
A- 50
B- 55
B Command- 75
A command- 65 and requires BE, practice breaking A on reaction to the flash and you should be fine.

-Cervantes (B threat)
A- 50 base damage with ring out possibility when your back is to the edge.
B-
Hates said:
His B throw grants 3B for 57 total or iGDR for 65 on normal hit, 70+ clean hit. Additionally, if he's got meter, he can CE x2 for 110.
Click to expand...
A command- 70 damage, requires BE.

-Aeon (B threat)
A- 55 ring out possibility if his back is to the edge.
B- 50

- Tira (100% guess)
A- 50 ring out possibility if your back is to the edge.
B- 50

A is the threat at the edge.

-Nightmare (A threat)
A- 55
B- 50 ring out possibility if his back is to the edge.
A-Low- See Siegfried
B-Low- See Siegfried

-Mitsurugi (B threat)
A- 30 base damage with ring out possibility if your back is to the edge.
B- 55
Stance-A- 45 damage, ring out possibility at an odd angle. Slightly diagonal to the edge of the stage and has to be positioned properly. This probably isn't going to happen on accident so get used to the positioning and deny him this chance.
Stance-B- 50 damage

-Maxi (B threat)
A- 50
B- 52 (Lol, typical maxi. What a random number compared to everything else)

- Voldo (B threat)
A- 50, rings out if your back is to the edge.
B- 55

-Astaroth (B threat, I know. B does less damage over-all, but letting him have the B+G command throw is just too risky.)
A- 55
B- 50 with ring out possibility if your back is to the edge.
A Command- 64
B Command- 40 base damage with a 67 damage and ring out (your back to the edge) possibility if followed up.

I have not posted the stats of his low throws because there is no reason you should be getting hit by them. His lows are slow and easy to see. I don't see any reason to be ducking vs Astaroth unless you sniff out a high throw attempt. But if you want those stats, feel free to fire up your console.

-O. Pyrrha (A threat)
A- 50
B- 40 base damage with 65 follow up (just mash B during the animation. You really shouldn't be getting hit by the second half of the throw)
A Command - 55

-ZWEI (B threat)
A- 16 base damage with 90 damage and ring out possibility if he wants to use 1 BE and 1 CE. I didn't test this too far, just face value so the damage could easily be higher. Help me out her Zwei players.
B- 54 damage.
 
Its also worth mentioning that some characters have more dangerous Okizeme from throws than others. We all know how scary Voldo is when hes standing ontop of us right? Keep these things in mind. I will (try to) make another write up on what characters are best/worst on okizeme after a throw.
 
Cervantes info is incorrect--you need to take followups into account, which will reveal him to be a B threat. His B throw grants 3B for 57 total or iGDR for 65 on normal hit, 70+ clean hit. Additionally, if he's got meter, he can CE x2 for 110.
 
Hates said:
Cervantes info is incorrect--you need to take followups into account, which will reveal him to be a B threat. His B throw grants 3B for 57 total or iGDR for 65 on normal hit, 70+ clean hit. Additionally, if he's got meter, he can CE x2 for 110.
Click to expand...

Thanks Hates i'll fix that up asap,

Everyone can feel very welcome to correct things you see on this list thats wrong. I don't play all of these characters to even a fraction of their potential so i'm almost positive things can be corrected.
 
Astaroth has low throw setups from some counter moves with his B low throw being the higher damage of the two, A low throw ring out with your back to the edge. Also standing A command throw BE will ring out if Astaroth has his back to the edge.
 
^ This, Asta has guaranteed crouch throw attempts, so for sake of completeness I would include those.

Forgot Aeon's 214B+K throw, Voldo's BS 66A+G, CR A_B+G throws.

Great job on the post though, a lot of good info! Thanks for putting this up.
 
You better be ducking AND throw breaking if you don't want astaroth to tap that ass.

Just sayin'
 
Also, if you're at a 45 degree angle from your back being to the edge against Raphael, and the edge is closer to his right side, either throw will ring you out from point-blank range.
 
Apat is sorta misleading. Meterless you break B no question.

If he's got at least one bar of meter though it's basically a 50/50. He can do 90+ damage on either throw. A throw will cost him meter so you can argue break B still because he'll lose the meter, but you need to actually guess if you're within KO, and giving up a free 90+ everytime, even if it costs him meter, is pretty risky. Then again ducking is suicide too. But that's apat for ya.
 
Patroklos command B is 75 damage if you do it fully (mash buttons and twirl the stick).

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Omega Pyrrha's follow-up to the B throw be done with either A or B ?
 
Nice idea and good info but a couple issues:

- Patroklos B-command grab can actually be ramped up to 75 damage(if the player mashes enough buttons) and can be escaped by mashing directions/twirling the stick.
- I'd say Pyrrha is more 100% guess because her A-command grab gives 55 and great oki while her B-grab give hers 50(62 clean hit) and good oki too. Plus, her regular A-grab can be folllowed up wtih 2B+KBBBB(50).
- I don't understand the advice for Omega's B-grab as it can be continued with 2B or 2A. I'd also mark her as a pure guessing game.
- Astaroth's A-command grab has a BE version that reverse ROs(same with his low B-grab).
- You're missing Aeon's, Hilde's, and Voldo's command grabs(plus his BT and CR grabs).
- No Yoshi, Dampierre, Devil Jin, or Algol.
- For Zwei, his A-grab w/o meter can be followed-up with 4B~2k(39 damage) or 4A(34 damage and +10 for Ein gimmicks). His A-grab with meter can be followed-up with 4B BE~66A+B(72 damage, 1/2 meter), 4B BE~1K BE~A+B(79 damage, forward RO-potential, 1 full meter), or 4B BE~1K BE~CE~B+K~4A+B(100/104 damage depending on clean hit, 2 full meters, Zwei player shouts Yahtzee). For his B-grab, it operates just like his other Ein summons in that Ein will not come out to finish the B-grab if he was just called out before(Ex. his B-grab only does 30 damage if it was just used after 1B/4A/B+K/66A+B/etc.) and after his full B-grab, Ein gets set on cooldown. Also, a super gimmick warning, his B-grab can be charged so if you stay on the ground and don't block you take 65 instead of 54 but this is very easy to avoid if you just hold guard and you'll only be getting up into minor block-stun(not scary at all and you only take 30 damage). Finally, another pure gimmick to note, he can't perform an A-grab while holding an Ein summon linked to an A-input(Ex. he can't A-grab you while holding 4A/66A+B/66A BE) and vice-versa(Ex: he can't B-grab while holding 1B/66A+B/6B+K). Therefore, always break the opposite of what he's holding or just step/duck and punish accordingly. Edit: One last thing, his B+K BE will combo off of his A-grab, if done immediately after, for 72 damage. Otherwise, either grab will open you up for the B+K BE to hit if the grab is timed a little later(56 damage). Good way to avoid this: 2A/2K.

Laswagga said:
Back-throws are unbreakable unless your name is Voldo.
Click to expand...
Astaroth and Zwei can as well.
 
Arguably, Nightmare can be said to be B-threat. It does slightly less damage but has better RO range (quite far for a throw) behind him, and if done successfully usually guarantees that the opponent is where NM wants him/her to be - at a decent range. This is up to guesswork though, but I find B-grabs to give me better oki most of the time.

Viola's A-grab without the orb guarantees a RO behind her with an 8A+B follow-up. The first hit can smack through glass or breakable walls and the second hit then RO's, and both hits RO straight. You should reflect that.

Also there is a reason to duck against Astaroth since command throws have a smaller frame break than normal ones. Still if you are sure of your ability to break throws and take the 50/50 mix-up (which is bloody painful IMHO) then go ahead.
 
I will really look into all of the things you guys have posted over the past 3 days and edit the list accordingly, thanks for all the additions. Hopefully this will be as useful to plenty of other people as it has proven to be for me. I literally COULDN'T break throws properly before, but at Final Round I was breaking everyones throws like a champ. Not even Link himself could land an ivy command grab on me. ^_^ Pride.

But as far as ducking throws goes, after watching Lolo get damn near 50% damage from ducking throws at Final Round with the use of his Critical Edge i'm really going to have to sit down and weigh the risk vs the reward for crouching. I still think crouching is the worse option rather than standing there and taking the 50/5o (throwing or not throwing) because essentially you aren't really avoiding a 50/50 by crouching, you're just deciding to deal with another 50/50 (Mid/Low mix up). I'm from ATL, and we're really well known for being turtles in Soul Calibur so maybe its just the lameness in me that refuses to crouch.
 
Panther said:
Arguably, Nightmare can be said to be B-threat. It does slightly less damage but has better RO range (quite far for a throw) behind him, and if done successfully usually guarantees that the opponent is where NM wants him/her to be - at a decent range. This is up to guesswork though, but I find B-grabs to give me better oki most of the time.
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ಠ_ಠ...I think you may be confused about what okizeme actually is. Okizeme is the term used to refer to the strategy you apply on an opponent who is on the ground(otg), or trying to get up, in order to maintain an advantage. With that out of the way, his B-grab has 0 oki opportunity as they can just get right up before you can do anything to harass them. His A-grab, however, is one of scariest "oki-enabling" grabs in the game because they're left right at your feet, ready to be mixed-up on. For example, GS B catches both right and back rolls, 44B catches both left and back rolls, and 1K catches all rolls. Once you condition them to not roll, they then stand-up into a dreaded 4A+B feint, flapjack, guard gauge damage, etc. Therefore, he is most definitely an A-threat besides the obvious B-grab for reverse RO/wall-combo.
 
I am hardly confused, especially since I have been playing from SC2 onwards. I use running up as oki too. Oki is not limited only to ground tactics as they wake up but also tactics right after they wake. I use a more general term to refer to all the actions you can take as you put pressure on them as they and after they get up, so if you want to get technical about it then I apologize, but in most of my games so far, B-grab has given me way better options than A-grab.

If this comes down to opinion though then he can always list Nightmare's grab game as an opinion based game. Most Nightmares that are safer do try and stay at an optimal range, so throws sometimes do not factor as much into their game.
 
Panther said:
I am hardly confused, especially since I have been playing from SC2 onwards. I use running up as oki too. Oki is not limited only to ground tactics as they wake up but also tactics right after they wake. I use a more general term to refer to all the actions you can take as you put pressure on them as they and after they get up, so if you want to get technical about it then I apologize, but in most of my games so far, B-grab has given me way better options than A-grab.

If this comes down to opinion though then he can always list Nightmare's grab game as an opinion based game. Most Nightmares that are safer do try and stay at an optimal range, so throws sometimes do not factor as much into their game.
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I'm sorry but even if you stretch the definition of Oki to after wake-up stratetgy, there is none after his B-grab. After you toss them to the other side of the stage, they have plenty of time to get up and do whatever before you can run over and apply some ghetto, running K mix-up. As I stated before, his A-grab actually has follow-ups for when they roll and when they don't(you're in a far more advantageous position to mix-up than from his B-grab). It unarguably does better damage and gives beyond better ability to apply oki/mix-ups. Thus, he is most definitely an A-threat but his B-grab obviously takes precedence for positioning, walls, and ROs.
 
Both Viola's ORB and SET* B grabs can Ring Out if the opponent's back is to the edge. Though of course the ORB version can probably do it from a farther distance. (not that I've tested yet)

Her SET A grab doesn't truly Ring Out directly behind her. It's a slightly off angle that sometimes will fail to line up the opponent for the Ring Out.


*According the poll in Viola's Soul Arena, ORB and SET are the official notations for the stances now. So try to stick to using that. Hey it was Jaxel's idea.
 
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