Strategy/Playstyle Discussion + general Q&A

It is a true mixup, you have to walk forward as you do it and it helps if your throw game is dead scary. Close range 33B/throw cannot be discerned from each other. Cause you can B+KG fake at any moment to delay the timing or throw in 3A+B, 11K, Crouch+ WR K, slide etc. Its similar in concept to Hilde's running Slide/ C3A/Throw mixup.

You can throw in 3B as well but i use 3B/throw mixup if i read flinch from stationary positions (ie he does a move which is -10>>-14 frames on block).

Keev does it all the time and DIME has been using it to great effect as well. :D

Also CH GS A at max range, i do a throw+3B+33B mixup from there normally. I use it in this video, 1:56. Throw is useful cause most of them will be shaking when they get hit by CH GS A:

http://youtu.be/3Kl1McF6JEM
 
Engared, it is sad that you don't like GSA(CH Max) -> agA combo. =|... What a waste.
Anyway, thanks your advice. I think every Nightmare player should know that "Rush-in -> 33B_Throw" is a very good mix-up at the beginning. I still use it sometimes, so I will not totally reject this good mix-up.
About whether it is a true mix-up after GSA(CH Max), I think every player have a different experience on this mix-up and I understand maybe you have a way to make it works in a high rate successfully without a true mix-up helps. So I think I will not disagree what you are talking about totally.

About Step->3B _throw_1A in Keev's vids, does he use it mainly as a whiff punisher in close range? I got this message from his vids.
 
SilentWall said:
Engared, it is sad that you don't like GSA(CH Max) -> agA combo. =|... What a waste.
Anyway, thanks your advice. I think every Nightmare player should know that "Rush-in -> 33B_Throw" is a very good mix-up at the beginning. I still use it sometimes, so I will not totally reject this good mix-up.
About whether it is a true mix-up after GSA(CH Max), I think every player have a different experience on this mix-up and I understand maybe you have a way to make it works in a high rate successfully without a true mix-up helps. So I think I will not disagree what you are talking about totally.

About Step->3B _throw_1A in Keev's vids, does he use it mainly as a whiff punisher in close range? I got this message from his vids.
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I don't believe its a "beginner" mixup at all. Its Nightmare's variation of Asta's Bullrush/Throw mixup or Hilde's Slide/throw/C3A. Its much more risky but the payoff is extremely high. If you want a safe variation of it, 11K/Throw is also very good though it does not have the same fear factor. Also, you are forgetting its not merely 33B/Throw. Its 33B/Slide/11k/3A+B/Throw/Cancel-Fake/Crouch/Crouch Fake/GS A/Step/Step G/Block etc etc. Your opponent is not able to predict what you will do next and if he likes to attack out of it (i.e. pit-bulling), you can bait him and make him whiff. So its not a beginner mix-up at all, in fact its an extremely advanced mix-up and makes Nightmare absolutely scary.

And let me clarify, Im talking about stepping forward and not full run (though you can mix it up with full run). That's why i believe that NM's B+G throw is so strong because from it you can use this mix-up should you choose from it.

I do not disagree that CH GS A, IagA is a good combo. On the contrary, guaranteed damage in my opinion is always preferable (ie take what your opponent gives you). However, in reality by the time you react to the CH and the range at which you hit; its extremely difficult to pull out an IagA in that time (agA most of the time will not hit in time)

Keev uses this mixup mainly from opponent whiff (which is what i try to do as well), when he is +10++ in frames on his opponent or when he sees his opponent flinching every single time he walks into grab range. Though I cannot judge what TV they were playing on, I still stand by my statement that its a skill which all Nightmare's should use as its arguable his best 50/50.

Approximately 2:00 in this video but he uses it throughout the match. Heh he even uses my version of Running 33B/Throw mixup haha.
http://youtu.be/KJ8nmj-uTd8
 
Engared, you misunderstood my meaning. I said "at the beginning", not "beginner's".
"Everyone knows 3K_1K_66K_Throw is a true mix-up at the beginning" that doesn't mean this mix-up is bad and only for newbie.

Your first post just showed me 33B_3B_Throw, then I just replied on 33B_3B_throw and that's all.
If a fake or any movement or hundreds of mix-ups can be added together afterward, then probably all moves can be part of a true mix-up depends how you apply on it. We never know.
Actually, I understand how useful those fakes and variety apply on a move and mix-up, so I said I will not disagree your theory or 33B mix-up totally.

In reality, the feeling of using GSA[CH]->4KK(close)_agA(far) is similar to NSS[A]->NSSK(close, not left)_NSSibA(far, left side). To be honest, I have had enough experience on this.
Compare to GSA[CH]->aB and NSSA+B(CH)->iagA, GSA->agA is 10 times easier and more reliable than those combos.
(See 1:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kECxA4AYBu0
Keev uses GSA[CH]->aB ? O no.

Engared said:
Keev uses this mixup mainly from opponent whiff (which is what i try to do as well), when he is +10++ in frames on his opponent or when he sees his opponent flinching every single time he walks into grab range. Though I cannot judge what TV they were playing on, I still stand by my statement that its a skill which all Nightmare's should use as its arguable his best 50/50.
Click to expand...
Is it a Mix-up, Whiff punisher, Mix-up-whiff-punisher or all of above? -_-!
Seriously, 3B_throw is not a good 50/50 mix-up.
 
SilentWall said:
Engared, you misunderstood my meaning. I said "at the beginning", not "beginner's".
"Everyone knows 3K_1K_66K_Throw is a true mix-up at the beginning" that doesn't mean this mix-up is bad and only for newbie.

Your first post just showed me 33B_3B_Throw, then I just replied on 33B_3B_throw and that's all.
If a fake or any movement or hundreds of mix-ups can be added together afterward, then probably all moves can be part of a true mix-up depends how you apply on it. We never know.
Actually, I understand how useful those fakes and variety apply on a move and mix-up, so I said I will not disagree your theory or 33B mix-up totally.

In reality, the feeling of using GSA[CH]->4KK(close)_agA(far) is similar to NSS[A]->NSSK(close, not left)_NSSibA(far, left side). To be honest, I have had enough experience on this.
Compare to GSA[CH]->aB and NSSA+B(CH)->iagA, GSA->agA is 10 times easier and more reliable than those combos.
(See 1:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kECxA4AYBu0
Keev uses GSA[CH]->aB ? O no.

Is it a Mix-up, Whiff punisher, Mix-up-whiff-punisher or all of above? -_-!
Seriously, 3B_throw is not a good 50/50 mix-up.
Click to expand...

Ah the phrase, "at the beginning" was not clear in its meaning based on how you used it. At the beginning could mean at the beginning of the round, at the start of a player's journey etc. Hard to tell on the internet.

I thought i clarified the situation where 3B_Throw is a mixup, when you are on major positive frames its a very good mixup. But it can be all of the above really.
 
Engared said:
I thought i clarified the situation where 3B_Throw is a mixup, when you are on major positive frames its a very good mixup. But it can be all of the above really.
Click to expand...
According to your logic, 4A+B(i66)_1[A] is a mix-up, when you are on major 65 positive frames, it's a very good mix-up. It's even better than 3B_throw because opponent's only option is J-GI. Therefore, 4A+B_1[A] is a very good "mix-up-whiff-punisher-unblockable". ?????

I'm sorry for the straightforward, but I have to clarify it and make it simple.
We can go to training mode to test and find out what is a good or bad mix-up or non-mix-up. If the mix-up includes a fake or other movement, please mention them in the mix-up such as iWSK_iFC->StandThrow that will make a discussion more healthy.

After a test, I can have 100% successful rate to break 3B_Throw mix-up even on a lag TV. I can say that it is a very bad mix-up and it can be considered to put into a non-mix-up category.
 
SilentWall said:
According to your logic, 4A+B(i66)_1[A] is a mix-up, when you are on major 65 positive frames, it's a very good mix-up. It's even better than 3B_throw because opponent's only option is J-GI. Therefore, 4A+B_1[A] is a very good "mix-up-whiff-punisher-unblockable". ?????

I'm sorry for the straightforward, but I have to clarify it and make it simple.
We can go to training mode to test and find out what is a good or bad mix-up or non-mix-up. If the mix-up includes a fake or other movement, please mention them in the mix-up such as iWSK_iFC->StandThrow that will make a discussion more healthy.

After a test, I can have 100% successful rate to break 3B_Throw mix-up even on a lag TV. I can say that it is a very bad mix-up and it can be considered to put into a non-mix-up category.
Click to expand...

Wow ok, don't have to be a dick about it. Im just trying to help. Is the whole of Soul Canada fucking dickheads? First Vincent, now you? Don't want to accept it then its fine. Ive stated my evidence already, and if thats not enough to convince you there's nothing i can do. I wanted to give you post A+G mixups, 66B+K mixups, 33B_GS B ground mixups etc before Vincent jumped down my throat. Now i guess ill keep them to myself.

Btw i have set ups which use 4A+B as an unescapable whiff punish against X and Maxi heh.
 
Engared, at least I didn't use any insult. About Vincent, what did you want someone to react when you posted somethings negative in people's country forum. I had no choice, I had to support my own people in our forum even I didn't talked too much. =D

Anyway, thanks your posts. You have bought up a great discussion. Seriously, I have learned somethings from you already.
Last post, I tested Stand->3B_throw. It is a bad mix-up indeed.
However, I test it again with step. For example: "A Completed Side Step"->Throw and "A Half Side Step"->3B. That try to match a same impact timing. It works much better than the standing version and I think it can be considered a mix-up. However, I haven't tested it in CRT, so I don't know if it is still good in CRT. MMmm... I think I made a mistake that I'm too early to conclude 3B_Throw mix-up. Let me test it in CRT first.

Actually, you can convince me easily if it is based on evidence, own experience and testing data. Plus, I need to test it or try it first. hahaha.....
 
SilentWall said:
Engared, at least I didn't use any insult. About Vincent, what did you want someone to react when you posted somethings negative in people's country forum. I had no choice, I had to support my own people in our forum even I didn't talked too much. =D

Anyway, thanks your posts. You have bought up a great discussion. Seriously, I have learned somethings from you already.
Last post, I tested Stand->3B_throw. It is a bad mix-up indeed.
However, I test it again with step. For example: "A Completed Side Step"->Throw and "A Half Side Step"->3B. That try to match a same impact timing. It works much better than the standing version and I think it can be considered a mix-up. However, I haven't tested it in CRT, so I don't know if it is still good in CRT. MMmm... I think I made a mistake that I'm too early to conclude 3B_Throw mix-up. Let me test it in CRT first.

Actually, you can convince me easily if it is based on evidence, own experience and testing data. Plus, I need to test it or try it first. hahaha.....
Click to expand...

Well i don't remember ever saying anything bad about your countrymen. I just said that you should stop losing games you should win (i.e. letting your opponent come back on you, dropping your own comeback etc. Its frustrating to watch especially when you are the one whom I am supporting as Im watching the video). Never said you guys were bad or anything.

w/e. Im done with this.
 
Engared said:
Well i don't remember ever saying anything bad about your countrymen. I just said that you should stop losing games you should win (i.e. letting your opponent come back on you, dropping your own comeback etc. Its frustrating to watch especially when you are the one whom I am supporting as Im watching the video). Never said you guys were bad or anything.

w/e. Im done with this.
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Engared, the business between you and Vincent I can't control. I think you shouldn't take this minor things too serious.
You know, I rarely post on Nightmare forum. At the beginning, I just want to post a GSA[CH Max]->agA combo as a reference and prove it can be done by reaction. That is my original goal.
About you bring up a 3B_Throw mix-up, I will test it later in CRT and make a conclusion. As usual, I will fight for what I know. If I made a mistake, I will not hide and mislead it. Wait for my 3B_Throw mix-up testing result.
 
so I picked up nightmare like 2 weeks ago......I really liking him
IDK if you guys know this but A+K rings out
as for play style... I just throw
 
It can also slam dunk them out of the ring if you have the opponent next to the edge and you're facing them (opponent back to the edge).
 
SilentWall said:
Engared, the business between you and Vincent I can't control. I think you shouldn't take this minor things too serious.
You know, I rarely post on Nightmare forum. At the beginning, I just want to post a GSA[CH Max]->agA combo as a reference and prove it can be done by reaction. That is my original goal.
About you bring up a 3B_Throw mix-up, I will test it later in CRT and make a conclusion. As usual, I will fight for what I know. If I made a mistake, I will not hide and mislead it. Wait for my 3B_Throw mix-up testing result.
Click to expand...

You started acting like a dick (bringing up that 4A+B mixup [LOLwut?]), like Im an idiot who does not know what hes talking about. And I did not post anything insulting in your forums, once again I was just trying to help you. I was just making a case against that combo in preference of the mixup i stated above. Then you shat all over the entire mix-up in general despite evidence pointing to the contrary. Just because you don't use it, does not mean it does not work.

w/e, im just trying to help.
 
MammothMan said:
It can also slam dunk them out of the ring if you have the opponent next to the edge and you're facing them (opponent back to the edge).
Click to expand...

It also wall splats if you dunk to the right if not mistaken. I do not think you actually get combos off it though. Ironically, because of the follow-up, this is not preferable.
 
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