WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
so which is better post 33B6?
BT B+K or GS B
which gives better wakes which gives better damage?
BT B+K or GS B
which gives better wakes which gives better damage?
Strategy/Playstyle Discussion + general Q&A
- Thread starter SWBeta
- Start date
HeresYourReply
[08] Mercenary
Thats a tough question :/ Doing GS B can give you the back kick after or a fakeout in NSS but idk... BT B+K gives you more options that force them to get up or eat damage. Its really which you prefer and not wanting to become predictable.
MammothMan
WR B, NSS A+B, GS KK, W!, 4KK, 33B, GSB
I prefer GS B, they both do the same damage but GS B puts you in a better position in the ring when the opponent gets up.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
I know BT B+K leaves them in a great position for 1(A)
and GS B gives BT mix ups
and GS B gives BT mix ups
HeresYourReply
[08] Mercenary
If you 1(A) to do wake up, they can roll forward (or stay there or something) and you'll whiff it and they can punish. Kinda dangerous.
Engared
[10] Knight
Edit: To answer the question, GS B gives more options from wakeup but the timing is stricter to get the full 63 damage version and to get the one with the most positive frames on wakeup (though it is JF techable). The maximum damage version of BT B+K is relatively simple to achieve and is also consistent, no matter the side or angle of impact. However, you get less positive frames on wakeup and it is techable. However, there is a must-block from this (and A+K) which is not widely known. Im not going to post it here cause we don't want your opponents to find out. If you want to know, PM me.
Edit: Doh i misread it, what i had written subsequently is what you should do after GS B:
Depends on which way they are facing. If they are facing down and their head is facing to the side or away from nightmare, nightmare has about +20++ (not sure of the exact number, can't say for sure cause the property is weird) frames on wakeup. So basically pick your poison. Its just very difficult to do proper setups cause of hitbox problems. I've developed a set of mixups to use from this but recently after discovering the varying positive frames, I kinda gave up lol.
I remembered Hold G_66A+B hits all rollers for about 30+ (most damaging option, most SG damage and safest too) damage on the ground if they roll or stay still (timing however is very, very strict), GS B hits rollers as well and 33B hits ground and rollers to one side. You also get 2A+B if they stay down or are late on their roll. You can mix up with throw and/or 33B or BT K (which knocksdown into mixups) if they stand up. However, main problem is im not sure if these mixups actually work in a match cause I have been having only a limited success with them in my matches. So this might need more testing against Human opponents.
Edit: Incase of any confusion, this is what to do post 33B6
Edit: Doh i misread it, what i had written subsequently is what you should do after GS B:
Depends on which way they are facing. If they are facing down and their head is facing to the side or away from nightmare, nightmare has about +20++ (not sure of the exact number, can't say for sure cause the property is weird) frames on wakeup. So basically pick your poison. Its just very difficult to do proper setups cause of hitbox problems. I've developed a set of mixups to use from this but recently after discovering the varying positive frames, I kinda gave up lol.
I remembered Hold G_66A+B hits all rollers for about 30+ (most damaging option, most SG damage and safest too) damage on the ground if they roll or stay still (timing however is very, very strict), GS B hits rollers as well and 33B hits ground and rollers to one side. You also get 2A+B if they stay down or are late on their roll. You can mix up with throw and/or 33B or BT K (which knocksdown into mixups) if they stand up. However, main problem is im not sure if these mixups actually work in a match cause I have been having only a limited success with them in my matches. So this might need more testing against Human opponents.
Edit: Incase of any confusion, this is what to do post 33B6
KingAce
HERMITISM
33B6 I usually go for BT B+K since you can mess up your GSB timing.
But the wake up options for BT B+K I usually go for FC A+G_B+G if they stay grounded or 33B6 for GS mixups.
The thing is just like his A+G grab, they're right in front of you for grab mix ups.
But the wake up options for BT B+K I usually go for FC A+G_B+G if they stay grounded or 33B6 for GS mixups.
The thing is just like his A+G grab, they're right in front of you for grab mix ups.
- Moderator
- #548
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Engared, Finally, I had time to setup a CRT for testing. Before I go into details, I want you to know somethings.
EVO, one of the biggest game competition in US is using low-lag LCDs. I heard that it is just an half to one frames slower than CRT. Our community is using this kinds of TV too for tourney because it is the trend and right direction.
Test results:
3B_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Non-mixup)
StepForward->3B_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Non-mix-up)
Step->3B_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Bad mix-up)
Step->3B_1A_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Bad mix-up)
RunForward->33B_Throw is not a true mix-up, but it is still a good mix-up.
In my dictionary, a true mix-up mean opponent can't see or break or distinguish the different between a set of moves in all condition such as 3K_33K_1K_Throw or iWSK_iWSB_iFC->Throw.
IMO, we should not underestimate human reaction and every kinds of players out there. If they can do it in training mode, they can do it in any situation such as in disadvantage frames or in distracting or in shitting the toilet. There are some kinds of players in my area have showed me why 3B_Throw is not a good mix-up.
If you still don't believe my result, test it by yourself. You will feel the different.
TV is matter.
More posts coming. =)
EVO, one of the biggest game competition in US is using low-lag LCDs. I heard that it is just an half to one frames slower than CRT. Our community is using this kinds of TV too for tourney because it is the trend and right direction.
Test results:
3B_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Non-mixup)
StepForward->3B_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Non-mix-up)
Step->3B_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Bad mix-up)
Step->3B_1A_Throw is not a true mix-up. (Bad mix-up)
RunForward->33B_Throw is not a true mix-up, but it is still a good mix-up.
In my dictionary, a true mix-up mean opponent can't see or break or distinguish the different between a set of moves in all condition such as 3K_33K_1K_Throw or iWSK_iWSB_iFC->Throw.
IMO, we should not underestimate human reaction and every kinds of players out there. If they can do it in training mode, they can do it in any situation such as in disadvantage frames or in distracting or in shitting the toilet. There are some kinds of players in my area have showed me why 3B_Throw is not a good mix-up.
If you still don't believe my result, test it by yourself. You will feel the different.
TV is matter.
More posts coming. =)
Engared
[10] Knight
Meh, w/e. You also totally discount game pressure from this situation btw and the reading of flinch. IMO you shouldn't discount things which don't work for you but actually works for other people.
And i keep telling you, you use 3B/throw mixup when you are +10 frames or more advantage. This comes from step whiff, unsafe block etc. So ill break it down for you, explain the "yomi" down to its last detail: Ok im fighting another nightmare and he has just done 66K on me. I block this move and now im approximately on +13 frames over him. He has no option in this situation but to block. He can block 1. Standing or 2. Crouching. So from here, as throughout the match I have been hitting him with throws all over the place, I know he would rather duck and avoid my throws than attempt to break. So I hit him with 3B and boom, he gets comboed for 70+ damage. I can also add more pressure from this situation by stepping to the side or stepping forward and changing the mixup into 33B/throw/11K etc.
You can then apply the scenario to step whiff etc.
I realise how much pressure Nightmare deals with his step game and closing distance. When you actually play against a top level Nightmare, you begin to realise just how scary his unmeasurables are and how much pressure his throw/mid game is able to deliver. You duck, you are going to go for a ride. You stand up and eat the throw, you get treated to post throw mixups or have to work your way back in against the zoning friendly Nightmare. I remember I was getting a headache after the first to 10.
Also, your dictionary is flawed imho. Im surprised you are a Nightmare player cause he really does not have many mixups if you use that limited definition of mixup. EDIT: NM literally has few to no mixups or damaging mixups using that definition of mixup. Would you rather call it an option-select then?
EDIT: PS we play on a low lag LCD btw. We do have running water out in Australia and Singapore as well fyi. You can watch that series of Keev videos as well using that mix-up on Malek successfully, who is easily the equivalent of anyone in the world. And Keev was blocking SW 22K regularly so they were playing definitely on a low lag TV.
- Moderator
- #550
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Woww..... From the beginning to the end, I'm talking about True Mix-Up. I don't know why you keep talking about mix-up and misleading my topic. Also, I never say "Don't use other mix-ups and other moves". I just tell you that "They are not a True Mix-Up". You are so bossy, don't allow people to classify a mix-up and learn their different in CRT. =(.....
True Mix-up is a True Mix-up. If you don't want to discuss True Mix-Up, just let it go.
Why do you keep using another kinds of stuff to keep argue with me and trying to eliminate the existence of True Mix-Up?
If someone can handle pressure well and break it like in training mode, what should you do with your 3B_Throw? (Still talking about True Mix-Up.)
Engared
[10] Knight
Depends on what your definition of a true mixup is. I believe a true mixup is a 50/50, an undiscernable 50/50 (you give him a choice, duck and eat 33B or get thrown, thats a 50/50). And i was talking about 33B/throw (close range at that) in that quote and to add to the fact that you can "Cause you can B+KG fake at any moment to delay the timing or throw in 3A+B, 11K, Crouch+ WR K, slide etc" makes it even scarier. I brought up 3B/throw and then you started attacking that.
Man im really beginning not to like you. Amazed that i used to "worship" you when i first started playing this game. I was cordial to you for the longest time in this discussion but you are discounting all of my evidence insisting on your own tests in training mode and then started talking down to me. It works for me, if it does not work for you, too bad, better luck next time.
Im not wrong here, so why on earth should I let it go? Its been working for me and other people for a long ass time now. Only you seem to be having trouble understanding the concept of this mix-up. You quoting one section of the argument tells me much about you and your mindset. The argument has progressed far beyond that point now btw, in case you have not realised.
Engared
[10] Knight
Ill tell you what, since you insist on training mode testing; ill give you conditions to simulate what it should be like playing against a good nightmare. Bang your head against the wall 3 times, then spin very quickly round and round for 30 seconds. Then bang your head against the wall another 3 times. If your brains start to ooze out from your nostrils, then proceed and begin your training mode testing.
- Moderator
- #553
SilentWall
[10] Knight
I think I'm the only bad guy here. If you like to share, there are more good people here that is worth for you to share. I'm not important. I'm just a honest straightforward badass.
I'm rude, but I'm saying the truth.
I did not post anything insulting you in our forums too. What did you want from me or others' feedback? I just thought you probably post a Nightmare stuff to a wrong forum.
How do you know I never use this mix-up?
No... My theory is "learning and building from the beginning and basic". I don't start building stuff from the 50th floor. If I don't even know what is a True Mix-Up and what is not, when I meet someone can break my 3B_Throw, I will be screwed.
IMO, use 3B_Throw when you need it and your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it. That is my point. And I believe that is your point too.
Engared
[10] Knight
Oh i have been sharing, believe me. DIME has been my US tester for some of my theories and he has been rather positive about the results. He's steadily improved and arguably could be the best US nightmare very soon. Im more than willing to help anyone anyway. But some people don't want help i guess haha. And believe me, you are not a badass. I think Parti will be a better Nightmare than you lol.
What truth? I mean do you even understand what you are saying? Cause i certainly don't anymore. You grab an idiotic example which has no correlation at all to what I am saying and so obviously wrong; before having the cheek to compare it to what I am trying to explain to you. What this makes me feel is that you think I am an idiot. And I do not take kindly to that. I have been on this forums nearly as long as you so you should at least show me some respect. Im trying to help you to win more games and actually unlock the character's full potential. Instead, you are going to keep losing winnable games like you always have been. If thats, what you want. FINE. Ill STFU now.
Building theory from the 50th floor? WHAT THE F*** are you talking about? I mean using your insane example, basically you are a building planner who would rather build from scratch, when resources have already been spent by other people constructing a perfectly good and working building. That's sheer arrogance there.
I have no clue what is your point any more. I mean if you are playing mindgames on the internet in discussing fighting game theory, you certainly have won. I mean i feel my brain starting to bleed trying to get through your obstinate defense. And i feel i have just been hit for a 150 damage combo, from a teammate lol.
- Moderator
- #555
SilentWall
[10] Knight
I think you can use it on Post-GI.
A+K is for right RO.
iagA is for left RO.
I think Tiamat posted that first.
Time to claim some credit. =)
I prefer BTB+K, but sometimes it depends on situation.
33B6->GSB_DelayGSB-> any moves.
33B6->BTB+K-> Two benefits: GSKK can pick up roll! And 66B forced guard against to tech-roll.
Tech trap:
33B6->TurningBack->33B (specific timing) (Trap all tech-rolls of left legs in front position characters.)
360 degree RO's mix-ups:
33B->GSKK - Guaranteed a forward RO.
33B6(far)->6K_GSKK_GSA+B(far)_blah..blah blah............ - Guaranteed a forward RO.
33B6 ->TurningBack->GSKK - Against to idle only. Back side RO.
33B6 ->TurningBack->Delay 3B (specific timing) - Trap for all tech-rolls for most of characters. Back side RO.
33B6 ->"25_85"->GSKK - Against to idle only and change the RO direction.
33B6 ->"25_85"->3B (specfic timing) - Against to Tech-rolls and change the RO direction. Side RO.
33B6 ->TurningBack->ReleaseG(JF)->1A(JF) - Yea, at least 2 Just frame. Trap for all tech-rolls of all characters. (Not recommend because extremely hard, but it is guaranteed everythings for sure if you really hit those JFs.)
I can't remember that much. I will edit it to be better format later for reference.
Engared
[10] Knight
Most of those are very situational and very risky. I haven't tried but should hold G 1A (specific timing) also be a tech trap?
And as i stated earlier, there's a must block from BT B+K.
KingAce
HERMITISM
It's not like any of you play like that...hahahaahaa. You guys must be bored.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
Engared/Silent: Discussion is good but try to be a bit more civil.
Silent: That 4A+B/1[a] mixup comment was uncalled for. That was a pretty big exaggeration on your part. Even if 3B/throw is a bad mixup (in your opinion) that doesn't mean it's as bad as 4A+B/1[a]. The frame advantage you would need to apply 4A+B/1[a] is not going to be as easy to come by as the frame advantage needed to apply 3B/throw. You surely know that those are not even close to being equivalent mixups.
Engared: It sounds like there's more to this than I know from just skimming your posts on the last 2 pages (I have no idea what's the deal with Vincent for example) but asking if all Soul Canada players are dickheads is pretty rude.
In my opinion, 3B/throw is not a good mixup if you're using it in a static situations, but otherwise it can be effective. I mean, if you are trying to do the moves as fast as possible at a specific frame advantage, the opponent can learn to flinch duck the grab attempt and block the 3B because the speed is too different. However, if used in other (non static) situations, or if you use something else to cover this problem, it can be effective.
Silent: That 4A+B/1[a] mixup comment was uncalled for. That was a pretty big exaggeration on your part. Even if 3B/throw is a bad mixup (in your opinion) that doesn't mean it's as bad as 4A+B/1[a]. The frame advantage you would need to apply 4A+B/1[a] is not going to be as easy to come by as the frame advantage needed to apply 3B/throw. You surely know that those are not even close to being equivalent mixups.
Engared: It sounds like there's more to this than I know from just skimming your posts on the last 2 pages (I have no idea what's the deal with Vincent for example) but asking if all Soul Canada players are dickheads is pretty rude.
In my opinion, 3B/throw is not a good mixup if you're using it in a static situations, but otherwise it can be effective. I mean, if you are trying to do the moves as fast as possible at a specific frame advantage, the opponent can learn to flinch duck the grab attempt and block the 3B because the speed is too different. However, if used in other (non static) situations, or if you use something else to cover this problem, it can be effective.
Engared
[10] Knight
Just some bad blood which spilled over from me poking my head into their forums. Hope it won't continue. It was getting nasty honestly.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
Gotcha.
Anyway...Bubbles asked if GS B or BT B+K is better from 33B6. I think it would be best to use both. If you use the same combo every time it is easier for the opponent to get used to your mixups. Even if you are doing good mixup it is better if the opponent isn't sure what mixups you are going to do, and ending combos differently is a way to add variety and unpredictability.
Anyway...Bubbles asked if GS B or BT B+K is better from 33B6. I think it would be best to use both. If you use the same combo every time it is easier for the opponent to get used to your mixups. Even if you are doing good mixup it is better if the opponent isn't sure what mixups you are going to do, and ending combos differently is a way to add variety and unpredictability.