Talim is almost as bad as SC4 ver.

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Frayhua said:
Let's wait for Kura to do damage with her in SCVI like he did in SCIV.
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Kura spent half his matches using Kilik/Sophy .... He also relied on AA/BB/throw for 80% of the match, literally he can do that with any character. Funny enough, the very few Talim moves he did use were nerfed/not viable in SC6, namingly 6B+K -> A/B mixup. They were both unsafe but provided ~60 damage if hit. Now both of them no longer has any followups and only provides ~ 20/30 damage. 11KA is another one, that's gone too, you don't think there is something wrong with this?

ZeroEffect317 said:
Yeah but, Mina's a bad example because she's busted, lol. At least in the damage dept. anyway.

Here's a better question... what exactly do you want Talim to be? And yes, I know you want her BD stuff back and her SC2 stuff back, but I'm strictly talking about playstyle wise. What kind of character do you think she is? Start there when suggesting stuff.

She'll never have Mina or NM range. That's not her design. And believe me, if they DO buff her, it probably won't be done to give her 100+ damage on normal hit moves, either. What they CAN do, is make life a bit easier for Talim players by tweaking the properties of what she already has.

For example, make it so that windsault actually goes over the opponent's head when done up close. Or maybe make wind charmer immune to verticals or during the frames where she's spinning. 1B plus on HIT would be nice.
If anything it'd be little tweaks to her frames or better evasive properties that would be looked at before anything else. Plus we're still ironing out the frames as it is.
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Mina is a great example, because she was as bad as Talim in SC4, yet now she has tools to be competitive. Mina still her problems of being very linear without good horizontals on the same power as iaGA, and of course limited moves at close range. She isn't busted or it is too early to tell depending on rest of the cast get, but there is potential there.

Asking Talim to get her stuff back is like asking the police to return the cloth they stole from the homeless guy that got framed for robbery. Seriously are you people dense or something? Talim was never a good character, SC2 was her strongest version and yet she was never a top character. She hasn't been viable for more than 10 years yet Bamco still take things away from her. Why the hell this is even debate? Don't even bother with thinking about character archetype, give her back the things they stole first, she is not even a real character at this point.
 
thinkingofaname said:
Mina is a great example, because she was as bad as Talim in SC4, yet now she has tools to be competitive. Mina still her problems of being very linear without good horizontals on the same power as iaGA, and of course limited moves at close range. She isn't busted or it is too early to tell depending on rest of the cast get, but there is potential there.
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No, she's not. This is a bad way to look at fighting games, and honestly games in general. You can't make a 1:1 comparison of a slow zoning character that has very few built-in mixups, versus a short ranged faster character with built in mixups and evasion. Regardless of how well Talim's tools work, the tools were made for an explicitly different purpose. And the comparison doesn't even work on an SC4 to SC6 level - whatever comparison you make is completely useless because they're different games. Some characters are more effective, some are less effective, some are about the same. So what? What point have you made whatsoever in saying that? Comparing her to Mina, and only comparing her to Mina's BEST scenarios is completely useless.

You can't talk about characters in a complete vacuum. Yeah, Mina has a low that can ring out from tip range and a good ranged step killing tool and her launchers lead to high damage. But, she has a lot of trouble against characters that get in on her and have even slightly decent frames. Most her stuff is slow and has significantly worse properties up close on top of it. She only has one single move that can block punish slightly effectively and it doesn't lead to damage, can't be done from crouch and is -13 on block.

Talim's similar. If you space appropriately, Talim's stances are fairly safe. WNF K and A are both really good. WNF tech crouches and can beat a lot of approaching characters into a CH WNF B even. Charmer has issues with certain tracking verticals, but charmer also has built in mixup tools now that it didn't have before. AABA and AABB are even a built in mixup for people who've gotten used to ducking the last hit of the AABA string. AABA is plus on block, and you'll stuff anything that tries to punish it with a WC K. AABB leads to WNF and on hit you can get mixup off it. Soul Charge adds a lot to her gameplay and her CE TJs really early, letting it punish throws and lows. You can make any character look good when you only talk about the positive.

But again, why are we even comparing the two? They weren't even made for the same purpose. You can pretend all you want that it's a 'passion for the character' and that devs aren't going to listen to Talim players if they aren't screaming about everything bad. But I've worked in game development. You want to know a way to make your feedback not get heard? Being hyperbolic about every single thing. It quickly dulls any real argument you had, because it's clear you aren't even considering anything else.

She has way more tools now than she did before. She's honestly not garbage at all. Does she have problems? Sure, but so do a lot of characters. If you want to see what a terrible character looks like in SCVI, see Taki.
 
Destinizish said:
Talim's similar. If you space appropriately, Talim's stances are fairly safe. WNF K and A are both really good. WNF tech crouches and can beat a lot of approaching characters into a CH WNF B even. Charmer has issues with certain tracking verticals, but charmer also has built in mixup tools now that it didn't have before. AABA and AABB are even a built in mixup for people who've gotten used to ducking the last hit of the AABA string. AABA is plus on block, and you'll stuff anything that tries to punish it with a WC K. AABB leads to WNF and on hit you can get mixup off it. Soul Charge adds a lot to her gameplay and her CE TJs really early, letting it punish throws and lows. You can make any character look good when you only talk about the positive.

But again, why are we even comparing the two? They weren't even made for the same purpose. You can pretend all you want that it's a 'passion for the character' and that devs aren't going to listen to Talim players if they aren't screaming about everything bad. But I've worked in game development. You want to know a way to make your feedback not get heard? Being hyperbolic about every single thing. It quickly dulls any real argument you had, because it's clear you aren't even considering anything else.

She has way more tools now than she did before. She's honestly not garbage at all. Does she have problems? Sure, but so do a lot of characters. If you want to see what a terrible character looks like in SCVI, see Taki.
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I agree with all of this, which leads me back to square one. Talim is a different archetype, and so, if she does need buffs or whatever, it would be in the areas that complement said archetype. They've done quite a bit to make her ranged moves more useful.

- Her 66A lunges forward and is faster
- Her 66A+B now TCs and is also safe on block even without stance
- Her 44B lunges forward and is designed as a Lethal Hit counter to low attacks
- Windsault is safer in general

On the downside, I think her 66B LH is pretty useless to be honest. It would've been GREAT in SC5 with the backstep counter hit frames being what they were, but in this game, backstep guard pretty much kills 90% of 66B reads. Maybe they need to change it to just Lethal Hitting on CH instead, I dunno.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
I agree with all of this, which leads me back to square one. Talim is a different archetype, and so, if she does need buffs or whatever, it would be in the areas that complement said archetype. They've done quite a bit to make her ranged moves more useful.

- Her 66A lunges forward and is faster
- Her 66A+B now TCs and is also safe on block even without stance
- Her 44B lunges forward and is designed as a Lethal Hit counter to low attacks
- Windsault is safer in general

On the downside, I think her 66B LH is pretty useless to be honest. It would've been GREAT in SC5 with the backstep counter hit frames being what they were, but in this game, backstep guard pretty much kills 90% of 66B reads. Maybe they need to change it to just Lethal Hitting on CH instead, I dunno.
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I wish they'd just swap 66A and 44A back the way they were in SC2. If that was the only thing they brought back from that game I'd probably be satisfied.
 
I am still new to the game and don't know what Talim's frames looks like on startup, hit and block.
She has the worst range in the game, and I feel like she needs to have like a few frame trap moves to keep her pressure going. The only frame trap move, I've found so far is 1A
She does not have scary low pokes compared to the other fast fighters, like Sophy.

I'd like to have a throw during her 6B+K.
 
Lokim said:
I wish they'd just swap 66A and 44A back the way they were in SC2. If that was the only thing they brought back from that game I'd probably be satisfied.
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Nah, I disagree. 66A is a move that lunges forward, having to back up to use it feels really counter-intuitive. 44A is designed as a whiff punisher now, (Lethal hits vs whiffed highs) so it's easier to back up and use that.

TalimMina said:
I am still new to the game and don't know what Talim's frames looks like on startup, hit and block.
She has the worst range in the game, and I feel like she needs to have like a few frame trap moves to keep her pressure going. The only frame trap move, I've found so far is 1A
She does not have scary low pokes compared to the other fast fighters, like Sophy.

I'd like to have a throw during her 6B+K.
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What's Sophitia's "scary" low? The ones she has that knock down, (Her 1AA, and her 1(K) hold), can both be blocked on reaction if you see them enough. Her 1K is basically a slower version of Talim's 1K.
 
Talim might be the worst character in the game, people say Raph is pretty bad though.

She's honestly amazingly bad, no range, has trouble getting ring outs, no way of getting in, honestly slow attacks, everything is punishable, most verticals suck, few lows that don't lead into anything, you can crouch/GI/RPS all her shit, slow and bad guard crushes her launchers suck, no damage, few combos or even resets, even if she was her soul charge version all the time she wouldn't be decent.

All she has it that stupid aircannon that does crazy damage that realistically is only going to wiff punish mashers.

Unless you are literally playing against someone who thinks her string from the reveal trailer is a combo and can't be ducked she's pretty much unusable. Not playing this game until they rebalence it and fix Talim and broken characters like Nightmare.
 
What just a random question but can the developers add a move to a character like if they wanted to give her a ten frame punish could they
 
ygolonac said:
Talim might be the worst character in the game, people say Raph is pretty bad though.

She's honestly amazingly bad, no range, has trouble getting ring outs, no way of getting in, honestly slow attacks, everything is punishable, most verticals suck, few lows that don't lead into anything, you can crouch/GI/RPS all her shit, slow and bad guard crushes her launchers suck, no damage, few combos or even resets, even if she was her soul charge version all the time she wouldn't be decent.

All she has it that stupid aircannon that does crazy damage that realistically is only going to wiff punish mashers.

Unless you are literally playing against someone who thinks her string from the reveal trailer is a combo and can't be ducked she's pretty much unusable. Not playing this game until they rebalence it and fix Talim and broken characters like Nightmare.
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The first off of nightmare is it broken that I can tell you

But I wanted to ask your opinion how good is this move in pressing movement

 
ygolonac said:
She's honestly amazingly bad, no range, has trouble getting ring outs, no way of getting in, honestly slow attacks, everything is punishable, most verticals suck, few lows that don't lead into anything, you can crouch/GI/RPS all her shit, slow and bad guard crushes her launchers suck, no damage, few combos or even resets, even if she was her soul charge version all the time she wouldn't be decent.
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I don't think Talim's great this time around, she's certainly got her share of problems ATM, but this seems like super wrong to me.

Her stance lows all lead into combo or strong oki, her strings are a lot better than they were now, her verticals don't all suck, her lows are OK (outside 1B, that shit's terrible), her launches are about on par with a lot of the cast when it comes to damage potential too.

Like not sure where you're getting your info, but it seems simply incorrect.

The 'string from the reveal trailer' has 2 built in mixups, and one stuffs ducks, puts you at advantage and in stance, the other being advantage on block?
 
TalimMina said:
The only frame trap move, I've found so far is 1A
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After certain attacks she also has 44B into either WNC K or WNS (K) as a frame trap. It doesn't work if the opponent techs right, though you can use the WNC stance transition and mix up as a safer option than missing a WNS (K).
 
There is credence to this argument in the sense that "what characters are worse than Talim?" Having only really played Talim so far, barring my lab work with other characters, I personally don't know their individual strengths and weaknesses too well yet, so I can only compare them to Talim.

The only characters I've heard people actively say they think aren't great are Raph, Talim, and Taki. I don't know what the issues with those other two are yet, I've yet to lab them -- and I tend to lose them a lot as a result. On my list of things to do.

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Far as my experience goes, I've been finding more and more success as I play. This is for various reasons: getting used to a 3D fighter, SC in general, the match-ups and characters, and just getting used to Talim.

I'm actually not sure if Talim will be more or less successful as this game evolves and people actually know what each character can do. On one hand, we might discover some interesting oki options and things of the sort, and already I think our damage optimization has increased a lot. Combo routes for her seem a lot more nuanced than other characters, by far. So we were at a loss at first in terms of damage, but while she is still relatively low damage, she's starting to get up there a bit.

On the other hand, while I have only faced a few Talim mirrors, I can say I personally haven't felt too threatened by her because I know all of her stuff. Now, were those Talims using her to her fullest? Certainly not, but it did offer me a nice chance to see where the character falls short when it comes to her basic gameplan.

This is generally how I view Talim at the moment, and how you can choose to deal with her as an opponent, which I think is important for learning how to play her better...

She has no low game. The only lows she has that are at all threatening are both from stance, and both generally only usable during moments of high advantage/oki. One is neutral on block, the other safe, one converts on hit, the other gives high advantage. They are key options, but both reactable, and evadeable. However, they are still useful. Her 1A is the only noteable one outside of stance, but it's reactable and easy to get clipped out of considering the range disadvantage inherent to Talim. WNS-A is also more an oki-based option, though it is good for closing a round.

That said, I think the patient man's gameplan for dealing with Talim would be stand block. If it at any point you are blocking Talim, her pressure will come to an end if you stand block. You can make it end sooner or punish her if you crouch block, but that comes with the risk of getting blown up for your troubles. If you ever get block an AA, her turn will end, and there is no need to crouch block. Either she stops at AA (turn ends), adds on BB (turn ends whether she stances or not), adds BA (If it was blocked, you will likely be out of range of the throw option, all she can do is kick you, or do AKA or AB. You can GI to cover both options on reaction if you see her doing anything after the A). On hit, she is close enough to hit with the WNC throw, and as a result, does gain a real mix-up, although I still want to test if there is some OS you can do to block the kick and duck the throw. Hard to test that without random replay slots in training. Answer is of course, to GI, which covers both options. Punishing said GI is actually quite difficult on the Talim as she has to commit to an otherwise unsafe B~B. Same is true for stopping RE.

The above is why I've slowly been moving away from WNC. Choosing to use it more liberally, Specifically from depending on AABA as a means for pressure.

Positive backturned Talim is pretty similar. She has no real low threat, besides a meh 2K. However, she gets you to crouch by having a threatening mid/high game. However, if you choose to stand block, you simply eat more pressure, it will end. Maybe you get BT A+B'ed, and while yes she is at advantage again, she is now back to her less threatening neutral stance, where her pressure options are finite. What makes back turned so much better is that she has two threatening throws, a super fast lethal hit guard break which can be delayed, a B which puts you in stun if it hits, an AAB which does good damage and ducks highs/throws. She is SO much more threatening in backturned.

This is why I've been switching my gameplan for Talim to finding as many ways as possible to get backturned at advantage. Even if all of her crouch punish options in BT are punishably negative, they aren't by much and can certainly set a precedent for not crouching. The amazing guard break options also shuts off GI attempts -- it's really nice, as well as being the most satisfying move in the game to use for me. There is so much oomph to that attack!

That said, I think stand blocking is still the best option to deal with her. You can tech throws on reaction, though you will have to guess, but it's safer option than not sometimes. None of this is to say you shouldn't crouch obvious patterns in your opponent, but in terms of playing solid as opposed to greedy, I think waiting out Talim's pressure is the best option. Doing this alone creates some big frustration for her, and then once you start weaving in crouching, she is just whiffing air as most of her moves are highs.

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WNC I find is much more potent when used from other moves, via 44B, 66A and just in neutral.

I could ramble more, but I don't think she's TERRIBLE, but she certainly has flaws. I've found a lot more success by just generally using more B's and K's in my approach. Her 3K and 6K both setup a lot of advantage for her Bs. Also using 8B when the opponent is standing is great. It gives you so much advantage. I've been trying to weave it in whenever I can. Pretty rare to get a plus on block jump normal, even if it does whiff on crouchers, it's still really useful. Not the most painful thing to whiff or get hit out of either -- usually...

Maybe she's the worst character in this game with some absolutely amazing ones, but I don't think she's without potential.
 
ygolonac said:
Talim might be the worst character in the game, people say Raph is pretty bad though.

She's honestly amazingly bad, no range, has trouble getting ring outs, no way of getting in, honestly slow attacks, everything is punishable, most verticals suck, few lows that don't lead into anything, you can crouch/GI/RPS all her shit, slow and bad guard crushes her launchers suck, no damage, few combos or even resets, even if she was her soul charge version all the time she wouldn't be decent.

All she has it that stupid aircannon that does crazy damage that realistically is only going to wiff punish mashers.

Unless you are literally playing against someone who thinks her string from the reveal trailer is a combo and can't be ducked she's pretty much unusable. Not playing this game until they rebalence it and fix Talim and broken characters like Nightmare.
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Wait a minute, first off, if she was Soul Charged all the time she'd be ridiculously good. BKA is like 70 dmg BB punish. 66AAAB is guaranteed post-GI with a JF for around 80 dmg. Windsault B guard break every time? AABB un GI-able? WC A on hit or block goes into high damage 50/50, etc.

But to your points, I have to agree on the ring out end. As well as her lows not being scary enough. Particularly her stance lows. None of which knockdown. She does get damage though. her 6(A+B) hold lethal is even more damage than Cannon, but has to be setup as a whiff punish. Her 66A+B is a safe normal hit launcher that leads to about 70-ish dmg. Tech-Crouch, plus on block with WNC transition, and breaks the gauge in about 7 or 8. It's a little slow, sure, but it's still a decent move.

But again, what can I or anyone else say at this point? It's a shame to see her lacking certain things to be great after waiting all this time to use her again. I don't think she suffers for the same reasons most people here do, but it'd be a straight up lie to say she's secretly super good. A few adjustments here or there could do wonders, but it's hard to imagine Namco really changing too much about her in one patch.

Destinizish said:
I don't think Talim's great this time around, she's certainly got her share of problems ATM, but this seems like super wrong to me.

Her stance lows all lead into combo or strong oki, her strings are a lot better than they were now, her verticals don't all suck, her lows are OK (outside 1B, that shit's terrible), her launches are about on par with a lot of the cast when it comes to damage potential too.

Like not sure where you're getting your info, but it seems simply incorrect.
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Actually, none of her stance lows reliably give combos except WNF A. Part of the problem I'm having in this case is just how un-intuitive some of these ideas are.

WNS A on NH gives a bit of frames and clearly wants you to set up frame traps with WNC. Yet, on CH, WNS A into WNC isn't even the real combo. The real combo for CH WNS A is WNS (K), which doesn't connect on NH. So you basically have to anticipate one or the other as you can't really react to the stun visual like you can with WNF A. Leads to damage left on the table.

I'd have WNS A give that stun on NH too. The B doesn't combo, so at least one of the options should give something, imo. Yes, people will be like "well in soulcharge that'd be a fucked up mixup cuz the B gives wind cannon", but really, it's soulcharge. How many characters get ridiculous shit in soulcharge? lol.

6K is my most recent sad discovery, lol. If it knocked down on CH like in SC2 that'd make it a useful move. It's unsafe too for some reason.

The range aspect though, it won't change. That's just the way of things. That's why good frames are so important to her.
 
I gave up on playing, Talim. She requires too much work and a lot of luck. Sophie is ridiculous in everything while Talim gets nothing.
 
TalimMina said:
I gave up on playing, Talim. She requires too much work and a lot of luck. Sophie is ridiculous in everything while Talim gets nothing.
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This just sounds like frustration more than anything. She may have to be played a bit different, which is throwing a lot of us off right now, but surely she's not complete trash. And Sophitia is good, but this just feels like extremes to me.

I'm still trying to figure out placing and baiting the new mechanics, lol. Have you tried out Mina? What do you think of her?
 
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