TASB TASB:4 Punishment
- Thread starter Ahriman
- Start date
TidalLeaf
[09] Warrior
Lizzy: 66A+B, WRKKK
Mitsu: 66BB
Mina: 6BB, BBB, AAB, 8A+B (at tip I believe)
Mitsu: 66BB
Mina: 6BB, BBB, AAB, 8A+B (at tip I believe)
Signia
[13] Hero
Sieg: 66B, 1AA
Sets: 1A
A (lol punishable guard break)
Asta: hehe.. lots of stuff. A few of his strings end in highs but not before pushing you back a bit, sometimes leaving you in a position to duck and punish with the dual stab. 6AB, A+B, 66AB, 1[A]A, 22B4.
NM: 22AB
After looking at frame data I think there are more but I would need to test and see if they're practical. I've been looking into the potential of jumping backwards (or in place, whatever gives you the proper spacing) over a low and using TAS B. If you buffer the 236236B during the jump, you land with a perfect 15-frame TAS B.
Sets: 1A
A (lol punishable guard break)Asta: hehe.. lots of stuff. A few of his strings end in highs but not before pushing you back a bit, sometimes leaving you in a position to duck and punish with the dual stab. 6AB, A+B, 66AB, 1[A]A, 22B4.
NM: 22AB
After looking at frame data I think there are more but I would need to test and see if they're practical. I've been looking into the potential of jumping backwards (or in place, whatever gives you the proper spacing) over a low and using TAS B. If you buffer the 236236B during the jump, you land with a perfect 15-frame TAS B.
- Thread starter
- #4
Signia
[13] Hero
I know right? This combo separates Sophitia from the rest, I win half my rounds with setups into this combo. If you don't use this combo you might as well play Cassandra she's better in almost every other way, better lows, better tracking, better CHs, better RO, better frames... better B+K, 6B and iFC1B have comparable range. Gotta use this or give up on Soph.
Suirad
[10] Knight
Um...no. She's got things like better mobility, better mix-up range/damage and yeah better ring positioning, but those above I have to disagree with.
MST KB
I_N
[08] Mercenary
If you don't use this combo you might as well play Cassandra
Gosh, you are harsh ;) In fact, no, thanks. It's an impressive combo, no doubt. Not an unexpendable one, though. Sophie has a ton of other tools, which are both extremely effective and much easier (= safer mid-fight) to apply. Moreover, I feel a lot of Sophitia players tend to rely on TAS B:4 (and, ultimately, TAS B TAS B:4) way too much. On a certain level, this game is definitely not about showing off with flashy maximum-damage combos, it's all about safety, proper positioning, cumulative minimal guaranteed damage and, well, dry mathematical calculations. If your purpose is winning your matches versus strong opponents, that is :) Honestly, I rarely even consider using it while fighting serious players. Then again, I'm an extremely defensive, cautious and calculated Sophie (and a very clumsy player unable to pull off TAS [!] consistently on my pad, for integrity's sake ;)). Maybe it's a matter of approach, after all. It's just that the dexterous nimble-fingered aggressive Sophies tend to be over-confident and, quite frequently, extremely predictable with their never-ending TAS B TAS B:4 fest. No offense meant, I'm sure you are an experienced, efficient and ultra-professional Soph player. That's precisely why your remarks have caught me a bit off guard, I guess :)
better tracking
Ahem... Care to elaborate, please? :)
better frames
Now, this statement simply contradicts some objective facts (=basic frame data), unless you mean something else by 'frames'. Sophie is faster (most notably, with her A(A), 236 moveset and WS options) and, overall, practically just as safe on block.
Gosh, you are harsh ;) In fact, no, thanks. It's an impressive combo, no doubt. Not an unexpendable one, though. Sophie has a ton of other tools, which are both extremely effective and much easier (= safer mid-fight) to apply. Moreover, I feel a lot of Sophitia players tend to rely on TAS B:4 (and, ultimately, TAS B TAS B:4) way too much. On a certain level, this game is definitely not about showing off with flashy maximum-damage combos, it's all about safety, proper positioning, cumulative minimal guaranteed damage and, well, dry mathematical calculations. If your purpose is winning your matches versus strong opponents, that is :) Honestly, I rarely even consider using it while fighting serious players. Then again, I'm an extremely defensive, cautious and calculated Sophie (and a very clumsy player unable to pull off TAS [!] consistently on my pad, for integrity's sake ;)). Maybe it's a matter of approach, after all. It's just that the dexterous nimble-fingered aggressive Sophies tend to be over-confident and, quite frequently, extremely predictable with their never-ending TAS B TAS B:4 fest. No offense meant, I'm sure you are an experienced, efficient and ultra-professional Soph player. That's precisely why your remarks have caught me a bit off guard, I guess :)
better tracking
Ahem... Care to elaborate, please? :)
better frames
Now, this statement simply contradicts some objective facts (=basic frame data), unless you mean something else by 'frames'. Sophie is faster (most notably, with her A(A), 236 moveset and WS options) and, overall, practically just as safe on block.
- Thread starter
- #8
I_N
[08] Mercenary
Actually, there was no such example in the post I reacted to. Of course, I'll refrain from further posting/replying in this thread, as I don't appreciate double standards, monsieur.
- Thread starter
- #10
I_N
[08] Mercenary
Look, maybe I misunderstand the game mechanics in this case... If so, I apologize. But if I don't, well... No offense meant, but I cannot see any real purpose to this thread. Basically, any move that is -15 or worse on block and has a suitable range for the first TAS B to hit 'on tip' should theoretically be punishable by TAS B TAS B:4, right? Practical/impractical is a pretty shaky criterion in fighting games, depending solely on one's reaction speed and gaming experience, so let's leave it out for now. Was your intent to create a list of most widely used (and, consequently, most likely punishable) such moves, perhaps? Otherwise, we can just do some nice copy-pasting from the frame data tables, you know.
I_N
[08] Mercenary
someone should have just told him about the frames
Well, some Sophie pros (Suirad and TidalLeaf) have contributed to this thread, so I was somewhat reluctant to voice my objections at first :) That said, if the purpose is to list most widely used > -15 on block mid-range moves, let's make a table of those with on block frame data/additional notes. Then again, maybe that's not what Ahriman intended to do. Hopefully, the OP's reply to my last post here will clarify things a little bit.
Well, some Sophie pros (Suirad and TidalLeaf) have contributed to this thread, so I was somewhat reluctant to voice my objections at first :) That said, if the purpose is to list most widely used > -15 on block mid-range moves, let's make a table of those with on block frame data/additional notes. Then again, maybe that's not what Ahriman intended to do. Hopefully, the OP's reply to my last post here will clarify things a little bit.
Suirad
[10] Knight
Pro?
Uh...anyway I don't think listing moves that are punishable by their specific punishers is a worthless cause as it can serve as a quick reference (still quicker than looking at frame data list, even if not by much) and in this case which moves will create the appropriate spacing is nontrivial information. And yes actually testing that the punish works the way you want it to is better than listing things that "should work", because who knows what actually does.
Actually hitting TAS B X2 as punishment in match play seems pretty rare other than off of a few easy cases, but info is still good to have and if people are looking, they may find something really useful along the way. That said, a full punishment list would be a better goal to work towards and it would probably be better if this discussion was going on in the punishment thread (I might move these posts there eventually). Not that the punishment thread has that much punishment data in it to begin with...
Uh...anyway I don't think listing moves that are punishable by their specific punishers is a worthless cause as it can serve as a quick reference (still quicker than looking at frame data list, even if not by much) and in this case which moves will create the appropriate spacing is nontrivial information. And yes actually testing that the punish works the way you want it to is better than listing things that "should work", because who knows what actually does.
Actually hitting TAS B X2 as punishment in match play seems pretty rare other than off of a few easy cases, but info is still good to have and if people are looking, they may find something really useful along the way. That said, a full punishment list would be a better goal to work towards and it would probably be better if this discussion was going on in the punishment thread (I might move these posts there eventually). Not that the punishment thread has that much punishment data in it to begin with...
- Thread starter
- #15
Suirad: thanks, someone understand me.
The others: i can assure you, i'm not a beginner and i know what i am talking about, specially about frames. 120 free damages apeers to me as an important strategic point and i can't understand you neglect it. Excuse my poor english by the way
The others: i can assure you, i'm not a beginner and i know what i am talking about, specially about frames. 120 free damages apeers to me as an important strategic point and i can't understand you neglect it. Excuse my poor english by the way
- Moderator
- #16
Malice
Super Moderator
Yo, it's Malice. I do this combo often but not in tournaments. I think it would be more practical to list moves that are punishable by TAS B, then list those that are punishable by this combo. You still have people that can't pull off 1 TAS B. I know doing vicious damage is sexy, but you have to crawl before you can stab a bitch.
But what we really need is a master punishment list that is stickied in this soul arena. So if you want to continue to use this thread to list moves that are punished specifically by this and then add it to a master list, then that's cool. But I pull this combo off rarely in tournaments, so I am not going to go crazy trying to find moves because it's dependent on the situation you are in and whether your opponent will do a move that will allow you to take over half his life using this combo.
But what we really need is a master punishment list that is stickied in this soul arena. So if you want to continue to use this thread to list moves that are punished specifically by this and then add it to a master list, then that's cool. But I pull this combo off rarely in tournaments, so I am not going to go crazy trying to find moves because it's dependent on the situation you are in and whether your opponent will do a move that will allow you to take over half his life using this combo.
I_N
[08] Mercenary
Suirad:
Pro?
Et contra ;) Is 'expert' a better definition? Of course, I'm fully aware of the fact that you have not submitted a PhD thesis on practical applications of TAS B:4 (hopefully!), but you surely are extremely knowledgeable when it comes to Sophie and have a nice methodical (almost academic, one is tempted to observe - so maybe you should think about getting a PhD in Sophitia science, after all :-P) mindset. You are constantly trying do be innovative, too (your thread on iFC236 is particularly impressive in this respect), which is greatly appreciated.
in this case which moves will create the appropriate spacing is nontrivial information
Agreed.
Not that the punishment thread has that much punishment data in it to begin with...
Please consider moving this whole thread to the punishment section, indeed. We can start working on the general punishment list systematically then.
Ahriman:
i'm not a beginner and i know what i am talking about, specially about frames
Please note that was not my hypothesis, Ahriman :) In fact, I think analyzing frame data is not even close to rocket science, to say the least. That's exactly why I was having my doubts concerning this thread's purpose.
120 free damages apeers to me as an important strategic point
Let me ask you something: do you really find yourself using this combo (a) frequently and (b) successfully while fighting strong players? Of course, 120 (118, methinks, is a more accurate figure) damage is awesome. The problem is that if your opponent is skilled enough, you'll never have the opportunity to use it in the first place. As I said, 'professional' (pardon me for the term used, Suirad :)) SCIV matches mostly revolve around staying safe, constantly re-positioning oneself properly and dealing minimum guaranteed damage to your opponent. That said, I can see myself contributing to a somewhat broader punishment thread. At least, frame/spacing data will get organized this way for a quicker reference.
Excuse my poor english by the way
I guess we can communicate in French, but that's just not polite and probably against this forum's rules :) As long as your line of thought is clear - never mind the wording.
Malice:
I think it would be more practical to list moves that are punishable by TAS B
My thoughts exactly.
Pro?
Et contra ;) Is 'expert' a better definition? Of course, I'm fully aware of the fact that you have not submitted a PhD thesis on practical applications of TAS B:4 (hopefully!), but you surely are extremely knowledgeable when it comes to Sophie and have a nice methodical (almost academic, one is tempted to observe - so maybe you should think about getting a PhD in Sophitia science, after all :-P) mindset. You are constantly trying do be innovative, too (your thread on iFC236 is particularly impressive in this respect), which is greatly appreciated.
in this case which moves will create the appropriate spacing is nontrivial information
Agreed.
Not that the punishment thread has that much punishment data in it to begin with...
Please consider moving this whole thread to the punishment section, indeed. We can start working on the general punishment list systematically then.
Ahriman:
i'm not a beginner and i know what i am talking about, specially about frames
Please note that was not my hypothesis, Ahriman :) In fact, I think analyzing frame data is not even close to rocket science, to say the least. That's exactly why I was having my doubts concerning this thread's purpose.
120 free damages apeers to me as an important strategic point
Let me ask you something: do you really find yourself using this combo (a) frequently and (b) successfully while fighting strong players? Of course, 120 (118, methinks, is a more accurate figure) damage is awesome. The problem is that if your opponent is skilled enough, you'll never have the opportunity to use it in the first place. As I said, 'professional' (pardon me for the term used, Suirad :)) SCIV matches mostly revolve around staying safe, constantly re-positioning oneself properly and dealing minimum guaranteed damage to your opponent. That said, I can see myself contributing to a somewhat broader punishment thread. At least, frame/spacing data will get organized this way for a quicker reference.
Excuse my poor english by the way
I guess we can communicate in French, but that's just not polite and probably against this forum's rules :) As long as your line of thought is clear - never mind the wording.
Malice:
I think it would be more practical to list moves that are punishable by TAS B
My thoughts exactly.
- Thread starter
- #18
i hope that any decent sophie's player doesn't need a 236B punishment thread cause it's the character basics. The moves i'll want to figure in this thread have two properties:
1: they need a JF 236B to be punished correctly, and sometimes they're safe even against 236B (Lizards 3B at tip range)
2: they can be punished by a double TASB in most cases
So, the choice is obvious for me and it deserve a specific thread.
I'll have the chance to play France high level each week and i use regularly the combo
The problem is that if your opponent is skilled enough, you'll never have the opportunity to use it in the first place.
SCIV matches mostly revolve around staying safe, constantly re-positioning oneself properly and dealing minimum guaranteed damage to your opponent
That sounds like a sc3 sophie's player haha. I was like you.
French vision of Sc4 is really based on the reward notion. If a move is profitable, he will be played and with a lot of characters, unsafe stuff comes in this category
1: they need a JF 236B to be punished correctly, and sometimes they're safe even against 236B (Lizards 3B at tip range)
2: they can be punished by a double TASB in most cases
So, the choice is obvious for me and it deserve a specific thread.
I'll have the chance to play France high level each week and i use regularly the combo
The problem is that if your opponent is skilled enough, you'll never have the opportunity to use it in the first place.
SCIV matches mostly revolve around staying safe, constantly re-positioning oneself properly and dealing minimum guaranteed damage to your opponent
That sounds like a sc3 sophie's player haha. I was like you.
French vision of Sc4 is really based on the reward notion. If a move is profitable, he will be played and with a lot of characters, unsafe stuff comes in this category
I_N
[08] Mercenary
The moves i'll want to figure in this thread have two properties:
1: they need a JF 236B to be punished correctly, and sometimes they're safe even against 236B (Lizards 3B at tip range)
2: they can be punished by a double TASB in most cases
Hallelujah! That's a good starting point. I suggest we organize our data in a table format (or, perhaps, two separate tables, unless you prefer your JF 236B info in the notes). I don't know how to insert tables here, but I'm sure it's not much of an intellectual challenge :) Anyway, the data should be filled in three columns, rows sorted by character/move (first by characters alphabetically, then by move type, then by notation). Very roughly and tentatively, it will look like this:
[Char/Move]--------[On block]--------------[Notes]
...
Lizardman
...
3B------------------[-17]-------------------[Not punishable at tip range.]
Alternative suggestions?
French vision of Sc4 is really based on the reward notion. If a move is profitable, he will be played and with a lot of characters, unsafe stuff comes in this category
In my book, safety and consistency > possible huge material advantage (to borrow from chess terminology). And, judging by the vids here: http://www.8wayrun.com/showpost.php?p=149705&postcount=95, Kayane is of the same opinion. I'm a huge fan of her super-safe X with heavy emphasis on spacing. Oh, she surely does take some risks, but they are always calculated and justified, either mathematically or psychologically. You may argue she plays X, not Sophie. But I've seen some Dina vids (your top Sophitia, if I'm not mistaken). Dina's playstyle is quite conservative (in a positive sense). Ramon's Sophie, for example, is much more adventurous and aggressive... So I don't think such thing as general 'French vision of SCIV' exists.
1: they need a JF 236B to be punished correctly, and sometimes they're safe even against 236B (Lizards 3B at tip range)
2: they can be punished by a double TASB in most cases
Hallelujah! That's a good starting point. I suggest we organize our data in a table format (or, perhaps, two separate tables, unless you prefer your JF 236B info in the notes). I don't know how to insert tables here, but I'm sure it's not much of an intellectual challenge :) Anyway, the data should be filled in three columns, rows sorted by character/move (first by characters alphabetically, then by move type, then by notation). Very roughly and tentatively, it will look like this:
[Char/Move]--------[On block]--------------[Notes]
...
Lizardman
...
3B------------------[-17]-------------------[Not punishable at tip range.]
Alternative suggestions?
French vision of Sc4 is really based on the reward notion. If a move is profitable, he will be played and with a lot of characters, unsafe stuff comes in this category
In my book, safety and consistency > possible huge material advantage (to borrow from chess terminology). And, judging by the vids here: http://www.8wayrun.com/showpost.php?p=149705&postcount=95, Kayane is of the same opinion. I'm a huge fan of her super-safe X with heavy emphasis on spacing. Oh, she surely does take some risks, but they are always calculated and justified, either mathematically or psychologically. You may argue she plays X, not Sophie. But I've seen some Dina vids (your top Sophitia, if I'm not mistaken). Dina's playstyle is quite conservative (in a positive sense). Ramon's Sophie, for example, is much more adventurous and aggressive... So I don't think such thing as general 'French vision of SCIV' exists.
- Thread starter
- #20
Kayane use 44B a lot for example, and i've already punisht it with a 236236B in tourney. Dina is one my regular sparrings (cause we came frome the same team originally) and he have switched to hilde cause he find sophie too hard to play in sc4 (did'nt see your vids, but i think it concerns sc4 earlier times when we have ALL a sc3 playstyle).
Seriously is your plan to counter every affirmation i do on this thread? Are you a super elaborate troll haha?
PS: i like your scheme but it's a titan's work. Also you must replaced the [Not punishable at tip range.] by [Only punishable by 236236B 236236B:4 at tip range] :)
Seriously is your plan to counter every affirmation i do on this thread? Are you a super elaborate troll haha?
PS: i like your scheme but it's a titan's work. Also you must replaced the [Not punishable at tip range.] by [Only punishable by 236236B 236236B:4 at tip range] :)