The War On Drugs

SacredWarrior

[09] Warrior
Without getting into a huge history lesson, The War On Drugs was started for terrible reasons and it has been a huge issue in America (my country) ever since it began. I'm vehemently against any kind of prohibition and I think all drugs should be decriminalized if not legalized altogether. Tobacco and alcohol are the worst drugs imaginable (I've seen the damage they can do) and they're 100% legal.

My opinion is better explained here so I don't act like Angry Joe.

For my fellow warriors, what are your thoughts on The War On Drugs and do you think it should end? Should all drugs be legalized or just marijuana?
 
Apologies as I didn't read your link.

I think the core of your post is to agree if the war on drugs is justified or not, by first agreeing whether drugs should be legalised or not. And to agree on that, I think we've got to agree on whether or not drugs are 'good' or 'bad'.

TL;DR: Drugs should not be legal unless you can make an environment that forces people to live with their choices without the rest of society suffering (impossible).

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If humans in our society were given buttons that would inject them with 'good feelings', most of us would press that button till it breaks (like it's 4A+B+K and you've got full-rose Amy in your face). Because we encourage drug use in our society through culture and government assistance, people are more likely to abuse drugs and the government needs to draw a hard-line about what's acceptable and what's not.

Unless you grow up in a home or society that encourages strong moral character, you will likely grow up as an insect who spends his/her life crawling from positive stimuli to positive stimuli, only stopping when that positive dopamine hit turns into a painful enough one (a negative stimuli)

If we can agree that people were free to do whatever they want as long as they don't infringe on other people's rights, AND there would be no help for people who fall into addiction so that the rest of us could see what these disaster cases really look like, I could agree to legalise drugs.

Some people are also more susceptible to chasing positive dopamine hits, especially if the negative consequences are always subsidised as they are in western socialist societies (e.g. don't worry about sharing needles and getting HIV, the state will happily pay for your testing and/or antiretroviral meds!). So these laws can sometimes protect/stop the most vulnerable in our society who, despite safety nets, would continue to abuse drugs.

That said, some drugs have measurably stronger dopamine hits on first use than others, like, you can't compare Opiodes with Alcohol or Tobacco, they just have so much more propensity to throw someone's neurochemistry out of order quicker. Where alcohol can ruin someone's life is likely more over a long term, as it's more how someone associates with alcohol as an 'object', and how that object relates to the other experiences associated with it that are the ACTUAL dopamine hit (socialising, the numbing effect of relief from being blackout drunk). Opiodes like heroin will fuck your chemistry up pronto, and you'll need the strength of a monk at that point to be sober enough to permanently avoid it after addiction.
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Drugs should not be legal unless you can make an environment that forces people to live with their choices without the rest of society suffering (impossible).
Society will always suffer because of someone else's choices whether good or bad. It's called the butterfly effect. That's not an argument for making drugs illegal. Plus your tax dollars will ALWAYS benefit someone whether you like it or not. Don't like it? Don't pay them. Instead of society, you really mean yourself.

AND there would be no help for people who fall into addiction so that the rest of us could see what these disaster cases really look like,
That would defeat the purpose of legalizing drugs. We already know what they look like which is why people should be helped and saved before it's too late. Whether state or private. Legalizing drugs would make getting help much easier and it would vastly lower the prison population in the U.S. which is TOO DAMN HIGH. Contrary to popular belief, drug addicts can become rehabilitated and actually become model citizens. I actually know a few myself. Some of them being my own family members. Who knew?

western socialist societies (e.g. don't worry about sharing needles and getting HIV, the state will happily pay for your testing and/or antiretroviral meds!)
The West isn't socialist. It's capitalistic with some socialist tendencies and yes the state should pay for those. I'd rather have my tax dollars go towards helping people and making their lives better than imprisoning people for non-violent offenses (ESPECIALLY people of color) and as a black woman from America, it should be obvious where I stand. If you're gonna criticize the West, make sure you get it correct. Those things don't happen in the U.S. because of our shitty healthcare system.

So these laws can sometimes protect/stop the most vulnerable in our society who, despite safety nets, would continue to abuse drugs.
No they don't. They just make things worse. The War On Drugs was literally started because of racism and making something illegal won't make it go away. It just makes the thing very dangerous and it makes crime surrounding it skyrocket out of control. It's destroyed the black community especially.

That said, some drugs have measurably stronger dopamine hits on first use than others, like, you can't compare Opiodes with Alcohol or Tobacco, they just have so much more propensity to throw someone's neurochemistry out of order quicker. Where alcohol can ruin someone's life is likely more over a long term, as it's more how someone associates with alcohol as an 'object', and how that object relates to the other experiences associated with it that are the ACTUAL dopamine hit (socialising, the numbing effect of relief from being blackout drunk). Opiodes like heroin will fuck your chemistry up pronto, and you'll need the strength of a monk at that point to be sober enough to permanently avoid it after addiction.
Harm is harm regardless. I don't care about how something is more harmful than the other. Besides the government has created (and sells) worse drugs. Pill addiction is extremely common and they're not doing anything about it. Either ALL harmful things are illegal or they're all legal. No grey area when it comes to substances for me. Especially since I've seen first hand how alcohol and cigarettes can fuck up someone's life.

Also alcohol is far more harmful than you think it is. Try getting behind the wheel of a car drunk or getting into a car accident with a drunk driver. It's not gonna go well for you.
 
Society will always suffer because of someone else's choices whether good or bad.
Yes, of course, this is why I said UNLESS we could make an environment where people were forced to live with their decisions in isolation.

It's called the butterfly effect.
I think you mean a negative externality.

Plus your tax dollars will ALWAYS benefit someone whether you like it or not.
You reckon? Like the junkie who gets fed even more addictive withdrawal drugs in rehab on my tax (euro, where I'm from)? What they need is to be locked in a cold cell with a loaf of bread and a hose. Outside of the war on drugs, what about the tax dollars used to bomb middle eastern children?
Don't like it? Don't pay them. Instead of society, you really mean yourself.
I wish it was optional. And you won't shame me for talking about myself, self-preservation is the highest law and I will not be compelled to drag waste through the mud.

Whether state or private.
Private please, but politicians couldn't get rich if it wasn't state-enforced could they?

Legalizing drugs would make getting help much easier and it would vastly lower the prison population in the U.S. which is TOO DAMN HIGH. Contrary to popular belief, drug addicts can become rehabilitated and actually become model citizens. I actually know a few myself. Some of them being my own family members. Who knew?
Why do you think it would make getting help easier? Also, the US prison population is right where it should be. What deters crime is likelihood of punishment, not the 'size' of the punishment.

The West isn't socialist. It's capitalistic with some socialist tendencies and yes the state should pay for those.
Capitalism and socialism aren't mutually exclusive, honestly just look at the failed project of western europe today.
I'd rather have my tax dollars go towards helping people and making their lives better than imprisoning people for non-violent offenses (ESPECIALLY people of color) and as a black woman from America, it should be obvious where I stand.
Unfortunately the reality is that drug charges regularly come with other charges, commonly including (but not limited to) gun charges (why would a junkie need a gun I wonder?), breaking and entry (but they just want help right?), assault, robbery (they're just misunderstood!).

And excuse me but wtf does your race have to do with it? Blacks and latinos commit more crime per unit of their population in america, because there are serious issues in their culture (I won't go further).

Honestly 'people of colour' irks me to no end. What does that even mean? 13% of the US population is black but commits 50% of the murders (US Gov, 2018). It's NOT Asian Americans, Indian Americans, Jewish Americans, etc, but aren't they people of colour?
The War On Drugs was literally started because of racism
really? not because of all the death, disease, broken homes, and crime epidemics right? just racism? Are you trolling?



I cba to respond to the rest but you probably understand my stance by now. Thanks for opening up the discussion, but respectfully, I think you seem to live in a fantasy world. World governments know exactly how and from where drugs get into their countries and could stop it within years if they really wanted to (they control nuclear/biological weapons, foreign money. But no, they need ever increasing excuses to squeeze us of our liberties and tax money but creating or exaggerating problems to scare us into submission. That's why they really need you to believe that a world where legalised poison is okay, and psychoactive compounds like marijuana and cocaine are 'just as bad for you as alcohol bro trust me!!!!11!! 420BLAZEIT'.

Thanks again for opening up the conversation, it's an interesting topic.
 
really? not because of all the death, disease, broken homes, and crime epidemics right? just racism? Are you trolling?
Have those things decreased because of the War On Drugs? No. They've gotten worse. FAR worse. Contrary to what you think, yes the government can be sexist and racist which it is. Especially towards minority males. And men in general but that's a topic for another day trust me. The War On Drugs is an absolute failure and there's a reason why most Americans (including conservatives) want it to end. And it WILL end. Also someone who worked for President Nixon (who created it) literally stated that the War On Drugs was created to target Blacks and Latinos which is why they face much harsher sentences for non-violent drug offenses than whites do. You really should do more research and look at other perspectives. I say this as someone who used to think like you.

Why do you think it would make getting help easier? Also, the US prison population is right where it should be. What deters crime is likelihood of punishment, not the 'size' of the punishment.
Because the drug addict won't go to prison for using said substance if it's legal. No the prison population is NOT ok. If you look at the numbers and control for population, it's still too high. No it does not deter crime and hasn't done jack shit. Laws against crime doesn't make crime go away. If anything, open-sourced education and expansion of the internet is responsible for that. You wanna decrease drug addiction and crime in general? Legalize marijuana (and other drugs) and warn people about the substances first. We have programs like D.A.R.E. in the USA that actually do that. Make alcohol illegal again and see what'll happen. It's not gonna be pretty.

You reckon? Like the junkie who gets fed even more addictive withdrawal drugs in rehab on my tax (euro, where I'm from)? What they need is to be locked in a cold cell with a loaf of bread and a hose.
No what they need is rehabilitation and that issue has to do more with the rehab facility they're in. Your solution hasn't worked and it never will work. You do realize that drugs are HUGE in prison right? You know, that thing you love so much that your precious tax dollars pay for? And it's usually the COs that sneak them into the prisons too. Pretty sure they're paid on your dime too.

Unfortunately the reality is that drug charges regularly come with other charges, commonly including (but not limited to) gun charges (why would a junkie need a gun I wonder?), breaking and entry (but they just want help right?), assault, robbery (they're just misunderstood!).
Not always. You'd be surprised at how corrupt the justice system is and how easy it is to get railroaded. I actually know some former drug addicts who'll testify about that. Also there's no way in hell that a drug addict should get more time in prison than a chomo (not saying the full word). That's what the War On Drugs has lead to ya know. I'm speaking for non-violent drug offenders (yes they DO exist), not violent ones. So this point is completely irrelevant.

failed project of western europe
Is that why it has a better quality of life than the U.S. in literally all areas? It's not a failed project just because you don't like the way things are. I could say the same about America but I won't cause I'd rather live in these times than live during the Civil Rights era. As an American, I'd rather live in Western Europe than here any day of the week. At least you don't have this problem.
But no, they need ever increasing excuses to squeeze us of our liberties and tax money but creating or exaggerating problems to scare us into submission. That's why they really need you to believe that a world where legalised poison is okay, and psychoactive compounds like marijuana and cocaine are 'just as bad for you as alcohol bro trust me!!!!11!! 420BLAZEIT'.
I'll just leave this here. Also the fantasy world thing is NOT an argument and can actually be used against you. Open your mind a bit please if you don't wanna be shamed and don't use personal insults. The minute you do is the minute you lose. Cigarettes and alcohol are also legalized poison but you have no issue with those being legal. By your logic, I should want alcohol to be illegal because of drunk driving and the many other crimes that can happen while intoxicated. You see how stupid that sounds?

Also you can't use "MUH LIBERTIES!" and support drug prohibition in the same breath. You gotta be consistent when using those kinds of talking points. Either you want ALL freedom or NO freedom. If you truly want liberty, then you should support people being able to put whatever they want into their own bodies. Don't use your tax dollars as a counterpoint either because you don't have a say in where they go. Go complain to the politicians about that.
 
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At least you don't have this problem.
We have this problem instead.
f you truly want liberty, then you should support people being able to put whatever they want into their own bodies.

You're absolutely right to point out my 'people can't be trusted so we restrict liberties' but at the same time 'i should have liberty to not support them'. In case it's not clear please understand my point - either we

1. Create a society where you have absolute liberty - where 100% of the positives and negatives are born by the perpetrator.

or

2. Create a society where we, as a society, decide collectively what should be disallowed and enforce it to the fullest.

I don't really think there can be anything in between, like 'do as much bad shit as you want, dw, someone will always be there to clean up after you (whether they like it or not).
 
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