Yoshimitsu Matchup Discussion

Frostheart

[10] Knight
Punishing Voldo
Just wanted to add meterless vs BS 2A+B, if he isn't at tip range I either RCC 3B launch if I don't feel under pressure, or FC3K RCC3B. All his 2 hit strings, including and especially both BEs, are easy to JG and have roughly the same timing.
 

monster_miles

[08] Mercenary
-Annoying 6B, K and 6A, K strings are evaded by 4B+K for 3B combo.

[/Spoiler]
A better option than spending a litle bit of life is if you block Xiba's 6A or 6B just immediately punish with 2A and then back grab, if they try to use the K string out of habit the 2A will catch them with their backturned allowing an easy grab.
 

monster_miles

[08] Mercenary
A better option than spending a litle bit of life is if you block Xiba's 6A or 6B just immediately punish with 2A and then back grab, if they try to use the K string out of habit the 2A will catch them with their backturned allowing an easy grab.
I would like to take back my comment I went into training and after messing around with your suggested punishment and the one I mentioned I've realized yours is clearly better since even if the 6A or 6B from Xiba hit you without counterhit you can still 4B+K and follow with the 3B
 

ChaosK

[13] Hero
I would advise against siegfried 3B to use 99B instead of 33B because left is his weak side. Also always step and tech left, never tech right because this is were most of his stuff tracks and you risk getting launched by 3B tech traps.

His only tech trap for left is 1K which you can tech back (teching back can work too in a lot of situations but left is a safer bet).
 

Defiance-K

[09] Warrior
What would you consider Cervantes?

I think he has some tools that push you back like aB (I think with good spacing you can't punish it, correct me if I'm wrong). And when you need to get in close after something like aB, he has recovered and can do something else. Sometimes I feel my movelist gets slightly limited since aB is i11 and some moves like 66A, 66B, and 9K are -12. I think I also heard somewhere that A+K will beat immediate action after Cerv's 4B BE guard break, but Cerv players can just delay their attack once they catch on.
 

mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
What would you consider Cervantes?

I think he has some tools that push you back like aB (I think with good spacing you can't punish it, correct me if I'm wrong). And when you need to get in close after something like aB, he has recovered and can do something else. Sometimes I feel my movelist gets slightly limited since aB is i11 and some moves like 66A, 66B, and 9K are -12. I think I also heard somewhere that A+K will beat immediate action after Cerv's 4B BE guard break, but Cerv players can just delay their attack once they catch on.
I think Cerv is 5:5ish, but it's obviously hypothetical. He has a really safe 3B (-13 AA/6B punish) and aB is usually not super punishable with space. 2B is his punish at max range block. At mid-range/close you can CE/3B. You definitely don't want to be using moves that are -11+ against Cerv. I'd use 66K as bait and then 214A/iMCF or simply guard and see how he responds. If he aBs you can get a 3B/CE from close/middle. And A+K after 4B BE on block is always available, just make sure to mix it up. If he uses anything right out of the gate after 4B BE A+K will interrupt. That said, always attempt to step+throw break every so often. This way his best option is a BT 2K. Make sure you show him that 4B BE isn't going to fly on block. Yoshi can get away with this much easier than other characters. Otherwise I'd focus on getting him to come in to fight you up close and run some of Yoshi's dirty close game. Cerv doesn't have a whole lot of good TJs to stop you from just throwing out iMCF profusely. He does have a good backdash to discourage it (will get into later). Make sure you really hound him with advantage after you hit him with 6B after you block at 3B. You are at a lot of advantage up close and this can seal a victory if used the right way. His favorite thing to do is backstep 3B so keep your only good backstep catcher 44bB in mind. It's bad on whiff, but it causes quite a bit of damage. He also cannot play dead against deathcopter after launch a:B+K. High level Cervs will know this and roll up, but otherwise he really struggles against it. It's actually one of my most experienced matchups, so maybe I'm just speaking from playing mid-level Cerv players too much.

Not sure why my post above was deleted. Hmm.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
If he aBs you can get a 6K and 3B if it's that close. I usually go for 6K since sometimes 3B whiffs unless it's super close. And A+K after 4B BE on block is always available, just make sure to mix it up. It's actually one of my most experienced matchups, so maybe I'm just speaking from playing mid-level Cerv players too much.
You should be getting 3B off of aB unless it's spaced. 3B reaches further than 6K
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
Thanks for everyone that contributed to this thread. I find myself doing much better with certain match ups that I have trouble with before. This really helped me better my Yoshimitsu overall. Most of the general mix ups I see usually I've miss punishment just to the fact I didn't know how to punish whatever it was. Anyways, good work @KokoYoshi and to everyone else who has put there pieces in as well.
 

mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Let's start this discussion back up. I think we all need to bounce ideas off of eachother for handling certain matchups and how they look overall for Yoshi. Three matchups I'm curious on having discussed are Xiba, Ezio, and Voldo since nobody here has really sounded off on them.
 
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rudeb0y

[10] Knight
Let's start this discussion back up. I think we all need to bounce ideas off of eachother for handling certain matchups and how they look overall for Yoshi. Three matchups I'm curious on having discussed are Xiba, Ezio, and Voldo since nobody here has really sounded off on them.
Dude! I hear ya buddy :) especially on that Voldo.. it is a bit ridiculous at times. with movement. Feels so hard to step against him compared to others... and his push pack. I'd also like to add Leixia to that list.. cannot get an offence started against her at all.. ( againt Hyrul at least) :)

Xiba.. don't step.. or be prepared to duck his step catchers? don't let him block punishable lows either unless you are asking for quarter life. Range in this MU = problem. If you can get in though, it's proabably Xibas's weakesness against anyone... just be sensible about it. Mix-ups are your friend! ) (wtf does he have that is fast that you cannot deal with?l )

2k back step 3BB (how you deal with back step?)

My toughest though, and always has been probably, is Omgea. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but it's ridiculous like 99% lost against BboySkyso! :)

Also, recently, Cervy. I actually like the match-up.. sometimes. But when I JG 2A and he can back-step BB.. WTF SOUL CALIBUR!
 
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mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Dude! I hear ya buddy :) especially on that Voldo.. it is a bit ridiculous at times. with movement. Feels so hard to step against him compared to others... and his push pack. I'd also like to add Leixia to that list.. cannot get an offence started against her at all.. ( againt Hyrul at least) :)

Xiba.. don't step.. or be prepared to duck his step catchers? don't let him block punishable lows either unless you are asking for quarter life. Range in this MU = problem. If you can get in though, it's proabably Xibas's weakesness against anyone... just be sensible about it. Mix-ups are your friend! ) (wtf does he have that is fast that you cannot deal with?l )

2k back step 3BB (how you deal with back step?)

My toughest though, and always has been probably, is Omgea. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but it's ridiculous like 99% lost against BboySkyso! :)

Also, recently, Cervy. I actually like the match-up.. sometimes. But when I JG 2A and he can back-step BB.. WTF SOUL CALIBUR!
Yeah, I have general feels for all of them but I just wanna see if anyone has some tech I haven't discovered. I will write a post in the next few days on them so we can bounce.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
Manta has said the matchup is impossible for Voldo (IRM has said the same thing about Maxi, btw). I think it's pretty good for Yoshimitsu, simply because characters that don't have anything to really annoy Yoshimitsu are rare, and so are among the better matchups. Yoshimitsu has a wide array of body attacks that really screw with Voldo's backturned mixup, as it beats his auto-GI. 3K covers a lot of things, though at some timings it will be evaded by the BS throw and 2A+B. 6B interrupts things while being safe to the auto-GI and jumpers. 2A+B can be 4KB punished. iMCF is also a body attack in this game, which leads to a devastating combo on backturned opponents. Voldo also doesn't really have the speed interrupt iMCFs from disadvantage, with his slow mids. Oh and Yoshimitsu can easily beat him in the neutral game.

I feel the same way for the Ezio matchup. Sure, 2K is annoying, but that's annoying against everyone. Ezio also lacks range on his basic BB, so you can do spaced -6 stuff like 3K or BB into iMCF and it'll beat everything. Against 66A, you can 6B to interrupt the crossbow or you can 2K to go under it, both of which can't be stepped or backstepped, so it's a free mixup. Yoshi can AA Ezio's WR A on block. I think Yoshi wins the neutral game here too, so advantage Yoshi for sure.

Cervy is really hard. He can get away for free after hitting aB or 1AB and after most things on block due to pushback. Yoshi's best tool against backstep is to follow the backstep with a dash forward iFC3K or just play the neutral game, but Cervy punishes FC 3K super hard. The neutral game is winnable, as Cervy doesn't have the best tracking, but is still very difficult, as you're going to be out-damaged unless you can CE his big slow whiffs. Having A+K against that 4B BE mixup is nice, but Cervy can still bait it out and 3B you. aB is very punishable, as 3B reaches at surprising ranges, and only a tipped aB is safe. When both players are playing this matchup properly, they're turtling each other and abusing time, imo.

The a:B+K setup is really good against all three of these characters, but I can't remember exactly why though.
 

mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Manta has said the matchup is impossible for Voldo (IRM has said the same thing about Maxi, btw). I think it's pretty good for Yoshimitsu, simply because characters that don't have anything to really annoy Yoshimitsu are rare, and so are among the better matchups. Yoshimitsu has a wide array of body attacks that really screw with Voldo's backturned mixup, as it beats his auto-GI. 3K covers a lot of things, though at some timings it will be evaded by the BS throw and 2A+B. 6B interrupts things while being safe to the auto-GI and jumpers. 2A+B can be 4KB punished. iMCF is also a body attack in this game, which leads to a devastating combo on backturned opponents. Voldo also doesn't really have the speed interrupt iMCFs from disadvantage, with his slow mids. Oh and Yoshimitsu can easily beat him in the neutral game.

I feel the same way for the Ezio matchup. Sure, 2K is annoying, but that's annoying against everyone. Ezio also lacks range on his basic BB, so you can do spaced -6 stuff like 3K or BB into iMCF and it'll beat everything. Against 66A, you can 6B to interrupt the crossbow or you can 2K to go under it, both of which can't be stepped or backstepped, so it's a free mixup. Yoshi can AA Ezio's WR A on block. I think Yoshi wins the neutral game here too, so advantage Yoshi for sure.

Cervy is really hard. He can get away for free after hitting aB or 1AB and after most things on block due to pushback. Yoshi's best tool against backstep is to follow the backstep with a dash forward iFC3K or just play the neutral game, but Cervy punishes FC 3K super hard. The neutral game is winnable, as Cervy doesn't have the best tracking, but is still very difficult, as you're going to be out-damaged unless you can CE his big slow whiffs. Having A+K against that 4B BE mixup is nice, but Cervy can still bait it out and 3B you. aB is very punishable, as 3B reaches at surprising ranges, and only a tipped aB is safe. When both players are playing this matchup properly, they're turtling each other and abusing time, imo.

The a:B+K setup is really good against all three of these characters, but I can't remember exactly why though.
I agree very much on Voldo. Top 5 best for Yoshi for sure.

Ezio is probably a 5:5. Yoshi does seemingly dominate the neutral (his fastest mid is slower and his TJs are pretty... bad) but Ezio is far far better at spacing/turtling than people expect. Ezio also gets really dirty oki on Yoshi since an appropriately spaced 6K2 (on hit) cannot be punished well if at all depending on how well they spaced it. If you get up close Ezio has to think really hard against a face rolling Yoshi for less reward than Yoshi is getting for face rolling.

Xiba is a very interesting matchup since he has very good spacing and great TJs that can cover a lot of Yoshi's offensive prerogatives. From my experience he cannot keep you out as well as the elite characters can (even the aforementioned Ezio is a greater risk imo) so it comes down to how much time you can spend in your proper ranges on offense. 2B can give you hella mileage in this matchup since it can counter poke many of Cheeba's ranged pokes. Don't abuse it but keep it in mind for sure. His lows are a pretty big problem for Yoshi since his FC/WR game is shit and it takes quite a few numbers on the negative scale (or a full bar of meter) to give him a worthwhile punish on many lows, especially most of Cheebas. When Yoshi is up close, he has the advantage but be aware that he has TJs that can reset momentum in his favor as far as reading iMCFs. Some noteworthy caveats: 6AK will whiff on Yoshi. 214A is an important move for many strings and situations and Cheebs struggles to punish it well without meter. Even with meter the risk reward on using it is very even. 6B for all REM entries unless they're spaced REALLY well. Learn how to anti his 6B/6A shit. etc
*I haven't played a super good Xiba that knows how to fight against Yoshi offline ever*

I've been thinking it was in Yoshi's favor 6:4ish but Party Wolf and virtually everyone else were saying that Yoshi gets blown up by Xiba. I'd rate it at a 5:5 until I really see it in action in a proper setting with knowledgeable players.

a:B+K copter is good against Cerv since he cannot play dead for it. I believe Voldo is the same case if I remember correctly. Ezio I don't remember it's been a minute since I used it on him.
 
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Signia

[13] Hero
Oh I forgot to talk about Xiba. I actually see his ability to punish his a lows a plus in this matchup. Getting 6K (or even CE) for blocking 1_3A+B is pretty good, and his other stuff is really safe against everyone anyway. Xiba's punish on lows and throws are horrible, only getting WR K for blocking iFC 3K. Yoshi being a counterhit character really hurt's Xiba's string offense as well, if you do the right moves. So Yoshi neutralizes Xiba's offense pretty well.

As for evades, just be knowledgeable about your best options. Xiba's B+K takes until frame 11 to start aGIing, so he can only do that at low disadvantage or at mid-range, where he could just backstep you anyway. If you hit him out of it he gets CH, so using tools like 66B, 33B, aB, dash iMCF, or even DNK (don't knock it till you try it) are good moves here. 33B and dash iMCF are especially good because their delays will allow you hit Xiba if he does immediate moves out of sidestep.

But all that stuff I just said doesn't really matter because your real enemy is Xiba's movement and spacing. Yes, Xiba has amazing movement on par with Yoshi and Pyrrha. I swear if he had just one good poke (3B?) he'd be an amazing character, but alas all his moves have issues in the neutral game. 44A is really good, being safe and having a delayable safe low followup, but it really doesn't have much range. 4B is horribly slow and linear. AAK string is duckable. 6A is his best move but brings you close and in a bad position on block and hit. 2B is too slow. BB is steppable on block, maybe single B is ok? 22A is another safe tracking mid with followups but has little range. 3B is really good, even just using it on its own, actually. 11A is a slow low which, to me, is impossible to see if they're also doing 44A. So it seems to me that Xiba's neutral game is all about catching you off guard with 6A into CH confirm, and making them scared so you can either 2K backstep, 44A/11A mixup, or if they really start freezing up, do his super safe linear lows. And then he has B+K in the neutral game, which works the same way as Siegfried's, allowing him to turtle with stepping in the neutral game, always threatening with some huge read, while whiff punishing with 3B, also like Siegfried.

So that's how Xiba is played, part of that is based off of playing Party Wolf like twice, (where I lost), but how does Yoshi beat that? Just keep running up and iFC 3K and different timings, mixed with 33Bs into combos to beat B+K when you're not just baiting it out (and DNKing when you see it? that'd be cool). It's not a bad matchup unless you can't adapt, as Xiba has to get too many hard reads to do any damage if you're careful. My matchup experience is against AlexJ (easy), Brokenknight (insane Mexican player that JGs my 66A+K, I go even with him), and Party Wolf (lost, but I have excuses! was the first time fighting a turtley Xiba, and I usually need a few games to figure decent players out, so I don't find those matches to be definitive of anything).
 

Zane

Spirit of the Wolf
There are two ways ZWEI players will use to get EIN out - 4A and 3B
What?? I think you mean 1(B), 3B is a launcher... And two ways?? lol... what about Pied Piper series, (B), (A), B+K*, 66A*, B+K, and (B+G)? I count more than two.
 

mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
What?? I think you mean 1(B), 3B is a launcher... And two ways?? lol... what about Pied Piper series, (B), (A), B+K*, 66A*, B+K, and (B+G)? I count more than two.
And A+K can aGI 'em all. Git wrecked scrub.
 

Dr. Hates

Jerk.
Yo, Signia, some things to consider:

1. You should add iWS A and 66A to your list of annoying, safe, horizontal mids. iWS B to a list of generally annoying mids (safe, breaks in 9!). As Algol, there are actually a lot of situations where I feel as though I have less functional range than Xiba based on where we are relative to one another (eg, Xiba's low-risk coverage + movement > my generally riskier counters), so I imagine these problems are even more pronounced for Yoshi while he's on his way in.

2. One of the issues that came up in the chat mkl referenced--though our contention was that Xiba should have an advantage in the MU, not a free ride--was that he has a huge assortment of really strong TJ moves, which should complicate the risk/reward on a number of moves, not to mention compensate for a sometimes lackluster WS punish game. If he does a successful 44K BE over something like that, you're losing a sizable chunk of life.

3. I'm surprised you only go even against BK. I actually have to work a lot harder against Alex. This tells me there might be some jank you're falling for. If we ever see each other again we should lab some of this. =P
 

EyeofCalamity

[10] Knight
I think yoshi is pretty rough for the werewolf. Zwei doesn't get WR B off of a blocked FC 3K instead he gets 4B BE if he wants to spend meter. And he can't play dead against yoshi's deathcopter attacks (After A:B+K air hit) Thats all ima type, too lazy to talk about matchups now