Yoshimitsu Matchup Discussion

Signia

[13] Hero
Yo, Signia, some things to consider:

1. You should add iWS A and 66A to your list of annoying, safe, horizontal mids. iWS B to a list of generally annoying mids (safe, breaks in 9!).
Man I used to backstep iWS A all day with Kilik in SCIV. Sad that iWS moves can't be used out of movement because you can't guard, so you can't duck. But yeah, that's another great horizontal mid. Didn't know WS B was so good. And yes I do die to BK's jank.
 

rudeb0y

[10] Knight
Against Omega:

I think it's imperative to learn how to get imcf straight out off a blocked 4B. If you're doing it right you can beat 2A (one of her fastest to keep you in check). A+K works well here as well; if you do a quick 6 A+K you can also interrupt her trying to throw you. If you happen to A+K her AA or 2A properly you are getting free 6K|CE. If you can just guard it well - it's a big one: from +2 to -17 so you get launcher|CE punish.

Also found out blocked 66B - full back step JG will JG DNS B if she tries that, or you can option select to cover that and quick step 22K to beat another 66B (if she's guard pressuring you with that etc). you can also back-step bG to make DNS B whiff for free 3B.
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
V.S Maxi

I don't if you guys know this but Maxi's RO A can be A+K'd for a free 6K|CE. I see most Maxis use this when they enter RO from 44B with RO A & BL K completing the string. Despite how good it is on block its actually pretty terrible against Yoshi. Also 3B Tech crouches the RO A if you have blocked the 44B which is pretty good if you don't have the meter.

Just thought I'd share if anyone didn't know !
 

rudeb0y

[10] Knight
Just found out against Leixia WR3B 3B+K K combo (NB: close launch), you can air control the 2nd hit left and roll to avoid the final K.

This is pretty useful, because Leixia can use this set-up to break guard easily.
 

rudeb0y

[10] Knight
wtf is going on with Aeon and 1A punish, it's so inconsistent.

Force him to block a single B, A or 6B.. and 6K gets blocked. Get him to block 6K, 4A and it doesn't. Looks like it is do with the push to the side from blocking the 1A?
 

hAppY

[08] Mercenary
Voldo can zone yoshi , make more dammage than him , with his Tj or STC game he beat imcf , Bs 4B Bs 2A+B 6K or 66K for exemple . 11K his good low +6 in advantage and don't punissable by yoshi . Launcher more safe 1[K] -6 BS Ws B -10 .
Yoshi Ro game his broken because voldo take hit in back front so you can't door knocker and in face voldo don't take door knocker you must use 4A:A:A:A:A .
His GB game his better because he don't need lost dammage to use it .

In Bs his roll is better and he can evade more pressing he can roll 1B+K in bad side 2B to .

Sorry for my english ^^
 

mkl

[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Voldo can zone yoshi , make more dammage than him , with his Tj or STC game he beat imcf , Bs 4B Bs 2A+B 6K or 66K for exemple . 11K his good low +6 in advantage and don't punissable by yoshi . Launcher more safe 1[K] -6 BS Ws B -10 .
Yoshi Ro game his broken because voldo take hit in back front so you can't door knocker and in face voldo don't take door knocker you must use 4A:A:A:A:A .
His GB game his better because he don't need lost dammage to use it .

In Bs his roll is better and he can evade more pressing he can roll 1B+K in bad side 2B to .

Sorry for my english ^^
22A is the one move in this MU that can give problems since it can space very well. The problem is that Voldo cannot play his game by spacing really and 22A throws him out of his optimal range. If he is going to spend the entire match trying to zone with 22A you're going to win the neutral game. Especially since you can actually sniff out the range with 44bB and FC 3K. As far as BS there isn't anything to worry about. 3K covers nearly all options from a semi-close distance and if he is further away when he goes into BS you just backstep b~G. There are way more in-depth ways to deal with each move and option, but those are very good ways to handle it. You don't really lose out on ringouts if he's in BS either if you start out with iMCF. Voldo is one of the characters that iMCF 66A BE works on so if he's in BS just do that for your ringouts. I consider it a blessing that 3B a:B+K gives higher guaranteed damage against him in BS, not to mention that you suddenly have access to a 70 damage throw.

At the end of the day, you can frame trap Voldo into oblivion for days and days and days and he has to respect it for the most part. Yoshi's mixups are stronger and more damaging. He doesn't have great punishment options in general so you can be riskier. I disagree with the guard game as well. They're somewhat even with guard damage but I'd still give the nod to Yoshi since he can heavily damage guard while frame trapping you. I'm not sure what you mean by losing damage to use it. Do you mean you sometimes decide not to 3B after DNK in combos and instead go for guard damage?

Also from Signia:

Manta has said the matchup is impossible for Voldo (IRM has said the same thing about Maxi, btw). I think it's pretty good for Yoshimitsu, simply because characters that don't have anything to really annoy Yoshimitsu are rare, and so are among the better matchups. Yoshimitsu has a wide array of body attacks that really screw with Voldo's backturned mixup, as it beats his auto-GI. 3K covers a lot of things, though at some timings it will be evaded by the BS throw and 2A+B. 6B interrupts things while being safe to the auto-GI and jumpers. 2A+B can be 4KB (and CE) punished. iMCF is also a body attack in this game, which leads to a devastating combo on backturned opponents. Voldo also doesn't really have the speed interrupt iMCFs from disadvantage, with his slow mids. Oh and Yoshimitsu can easily beat him in the neutral game.
 

hAppY

[08] Mercenary
You beat voldo in neutral game ?

Neutral game yoshi : 3B 63 dmg -14 you can back dash and step
33B B+K 50 dmg same problème
3B+K
44A
4B
22B

Voldo neutral game : 666B steppable but safe and anti back dash
22B
1[K] safe
I will don't talk about Bs because that became insane
 

Signia

[13] Hero
You beat voldo in neutral game ?

Neutral game yoshi : 3B 63 dmg -14 you can back dash and step
33B B+K 50 dmg same problème
3B+K
44A
4B
22B

Voldo neutral game : 666B steppable but safe and anti back dash
22B
1[K] safe
I will don't talk about Bs because that became insane
You're missing a key move: FC 3K.

Also, Yoshi has strong basic AA, BB, 2B, and 3K. 33B is great, especially against Voldo, since he lacks punishers. He has trouble stepping it, too.

Those are the moves you should be using in the neutral game, maybe throwing in some dash-iMCF, 4KB, aB. You should use 3B and 22B as whiff punishers. 44A and 3B+K aren't really needed, and 4B is too slow, weak, and short ranged to be used in the neutral game.

Voldo's 22A can be 33A+B punished on whiff, 666B is very linear, and 1(K) is doesn't have much range. He's very linear in general, so you can step him easily when front-turned. When back-turned, he has hardly any range, and if you're so worried about it you can 3K him to force him to face forward. Voldo probably has the worst neutral game in the game.

The difference in movement speeds is a huge factor, too. Yoshimitsu has the fastest movement and Voldo has the slowest. If you take advantage of this, it should be very difficult for Voldo to hit you.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
What do you mean when you talk about neutral game ? Voldo has better NH game than Yoshi actually.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
@Maxou

When both players are in a "neutral" position, as in players are at a medium distance away and where players aren't attacking out of hit or block stun. Every match starts with this "neutral game" in the beginning. It's pretty much the same thing as "footsies," really.
 

hAppY

[08] Mercenary
Test behind voldo's 1[K] yoshi's 3K was stepped by Bs 22B 15 - 100 nice risk reward .
 
Last edited:

Maxou

[11] Champion
@Maxou

When both players are in a "neutral" position, as in players are at a medium distance away and where players aren't attacking out of hit or block stun. Every match starts with this "neutral game" in the beginning. It's pretty much the same thing as "footsies," really.
Okay thanks !

I mean, I don't disagree with everything you're saying, but I don't agree with everything either :
Voldo will punish most of Yoshi's move with decent damage (except for -12 moves).
Voldo has a better GB game.
Voldo has better whiffpunish.
He has good "neutral game". Which breaks guard most of the time too.
He has tons of BS A opportunities to prevent Yoshi's FC 3K and 66B/33B which greatly reduce Yoshi's neutral game, and give Voldo very good whiffpunish opportunities at low risk.
He has no problems with frame traps whatsoever.

I believe the true problems in this MU for Voldo lie in : movement speed, Voldo hitbox, FC 3K being only 55dmg punished (I can't for the like of me do 66B BE or CE when punishing that move), 8K and 33B.

I don't think the MU as being bad for Voldo nor Yoshi (I believe it's 5-5).

Happy : Rien compris à ta phrase !
 

hAppY

[08] Mercenary
Juste qu'il me dit que 3K fais option select pour te faire repasser de face je lui dis juste de tester les divers transitions ou le 3K se fera step et voldo mettra un petit 22B donc le risque reward est rigolo .
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
Juste qu'il me dit que 3K fais option select pour te faire repasser de face je lui dis juste de tester les divers transitions ou le 3K se fera step et voldo mettra un petit 22B donc le risque reward est rigolo .
Translation : there are some occurrences where 3K will get stepped in BS and BS 22B will hit as a whiffpunish.

IMO those occurrences are kinda rare, and 3K will mostly get JG'd, guarded, backdashed or STC with BS 2A+B (or, of course, hit voldo).
 

Signia

[13] Hero
I saw this phenomenon when testing what BS A+G and B+G evades after some BS transitions. 3K whiffs, but the slightest of delays is enough to make it hit. 3A is also step killing body attack, and of course you can CH confirm for big damage to improve your reward. 3A can be stepped after some transitions too, so it seems there's some tight window for evading these mids that can be avoided with slight delays, though it will leave you open to fast BS options (that aren't very threatening).

Sadly 3A pushes too far out on CH to combo into the string in the 1(K) 22B situation. If you want to beat step, auto GI, and 2A+B, you can iFC3K here. Better yet, I just found that 9K will beat those plus Voldo 9B and 2A, and you even can get a big air-hit combo on Voldo's 9B, with a:B+K BT hit. Voldo BS A will beat those two, but dash-iMCF will CH it while beating a number of options, even a committed sidestep-attack.

Other transitions need testing too, though. For example, after blocking 22B, Yoshi 9K will whiff against Voldo 2A+B. But, 2A+B whiffs too, and you have enough advantage to get a big 3B BT launch combo.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
I saw this phenomenon when testing what BS A+G and B+G evades after some BS transitions. 3K whiffs, but the slightest of delays is enough to make it hit. 3A is also step killing body attack, and of course you can CH confirm for big damage to improve your reward. 3A can be stepped after some transitions too, so it seems there's some tight window for evading these mids that can be avoided with slight delays, though it will leave you open to fast BS options (that aren't very threatening).

Sadly 3A pushes too far out on CH to combo into the string in the 1(K) 22B situation. If you want to beat step, auto GI, and 2A+B, you can iFC3K here. Better yet, I just found that 9K will beat those plus Voldo 9B and 2A, and you even can get a big air-hit combo on Voldo's 9B, with a:B+K BT hit. Voldo BS A will beat those two, but dash-iMCF will CH it while beating a number of options, even a committed sidestep-attack.

Other transitions need testing too, though. For example, after blocking 22B, Yoshi 9K will whiff against Voldo 2A+B. But, 2A+B whiffs too, and you have enough advantage to get a big 3B BT launch combo.
Of course Yoshimitsu has very good stuff to deal with voldo's.
When you include fast BS options, do you include BS 6ABB and BS 6B6B? Because those are very threatening !

Yoshi's 9K will whiff against ducked Voldo after say Voldo 22B. Period. No need for BS 2A+B to make it whiff.
8K on the other hand will touch Voldo. But 8K can be backdashed.

There are no universal solutions and some of Voldo's stuff answer to multiple problems. No need for hard read too since you often counter 2 or 3 answers at the same time with very decent risk/reward.

Don't misunderstand, I don't disagree with everything you said (and I am mostly agreeing with you Signia). But I'd like to emphasis Yoshi's options after any BS starters are only options. Just like Voldo's are. Even 3K is no universal solutions and won't make Voldo freeze.

His neutral game on the other hand is not as bad as you think : everything breaks guard, everything pushbacks, everything tracks, and he is not slow ! I don't see how he has the "worst neutral game in the game". Can you explain?
His linearity is clearly debatable too : 1A, 44A, 4A, 33A, 2A, 3A, and tracking moves are very good front turned.
Btw 3A is hardly punishable by Yoshi.
 
Last edited:

Signia

[13] Hero
There are no universal solutions and some of Voldo's stuff answer to multiple problems. No need for hard read too since you often counter 2 or 3 answers at the same time with very decent risk/reward.
...
But I'd like to emphasis Yoshi's options after any BS starters are only options. Just like Voldo's are. Even 3K is no universal solutions and won't make Voldo freeze.
Right, but I'd say Yoshi has more coverage than most characters and it weakens Voldo's BS reverse mixup, which is a big part of his offense.

His neutral game on the other hand is not as bad as you think : everything breaks guard, everything pushbacks, everything tracks, and he is not slow ! I don't see how he has the "worst neutral game in the game". Can you explain?
His linearity is clearly debatable too : 1A, 44A, 4A, 33A, 2A, 3A, and tracking moves are very good front turned.
Btw 3A is hardly punishable by Yoshi.
I don't think it's the worst by a far margin, I just think everyone else's neutral game is better. He moves really slowly so it's easy to control your distances against him. Effective ranges are dramatically affected by movement speed, and I don't see Voldo being able to dash forward and 3A or 44A before I can react. Idk, it's hard to explain but he doesn't seem very threatening. I can dash-iMCF, space 3Ks, and dash iFC3K all day against him, while being able to whiff punish his stuff really hard.

Maybe Manta's just bad at the neutral game.
 

Maxou

[11] Champion
Right, but I'd say Yoshi has more coverage than most characters and it weakens Voldo's BS reverse mixup, which is a big part of his offense.


I don't think it's the worst by a far margin, I just think everyone else's neutral game is better. He moves really slowly so it's easy to control your distances against him. Effective ranges are dramatically affected by movement speed, and I don't see Voldo being able to dash forward and 3A or 44A before I can react. Idk, it's hard to explain but he doesn't seem very threatening. I can dash-iMCF, space 3Ks, and dash iFC3K all day against him, while being able to whiff punish his stuff really hard.

Maybe Manta's just bad at the neutral game.
3K is indeed great in this MU since it can only be avoided (apart from max range 1K] / 22B) by BS A+G / B+G, standing guard/JG or BS 2A+B.

Why would Voldo use dash 3A or 44A ?
1A, 33A and 4A are just so much better.
I understand what you mean though, and it's true ! That's the real problem in this MU for Voldo : movement speed.

The only problem I have with your argument is at the end.
- dash iMCF and iMCF in general are not that threatening for Voldo. He doesn't need to play at iMCF range, including dash iMCF. He avoids iMCF really well too. But 6B BE is more of a problem, since it will catch most kind of BS backdash when iMCF is much more limited.
- space 3K : true, just like BB, AA. All annoying to deal with.
- FC 3K : BS A, pushback, 4A+K, TJ moves will limit that stuff very well. Still very annoying but you're not taking a big risk using BS A for exemple, and BS A will prevent multible options (4K, 66B, 33B, iFC 3K, any kind of dash attack that isn't TC - and yes I know 66B and 33B have TC frames but they're very limited) and BS A has a very fast recovery (-13 JG).

If Voldo doesn't make some kind of big spacing mistake (22A whiff, BS 4B whiff, BS B+K whiff), I don't see where Yoshi will get his big whiffpunish damage if he doesn't take risks and you won't be able to whiffpunish his stuff really hard : Voldo's recovery are really fast (-10 to -17 JG most of the time) !
 

Signia

[13] Hero
3K is indeed great in this MU since it can only be avoided (apart from max range 1K] / 22B) by BS A+G / B+G, standing guard/JG or BS 2A+B.

Why would Voldo use dash 3A or 44A ?
1A, 33A and 4A are just so much better.
I understand what you mean though, and it's true ! That's the real problem in this MU for Voldo : movement speed.

The only problem I have with your argument is at the end.
- dash iMCF and iMCF in general are not that threatening for Voldo. He doesn't need to play at iMCF range, including dash iMCF. He avoids iMCF really well too. But 6B BE is more of a problem, since it will catch most kind of BS backdash when iMCF is much more limited.
- space 3K : true, just like BB, AA. All annoying to deal with.
- FC 3K : BS A, pushback, 4A+K, TJ moves will limit that stuff very well. Still very annoying but you're not taking a big risk using BS A for exemple, and BS A will prevent multible options (4K, 66B, 33B, iFC 3K, any kind of dash attack that isn't TC - and yes I know 66B and 33B have TC frames but they're very limited) and BS A has a very fast recovery (-13 JG).

If Voldo doesn't make some kind of big spacing mistake (22A whiff, BS 4B whiff, BS B+K whiff), I don't see where Yoshi will get his big whiffpunish damage if he doesn't take risks and you won't be able to whiffpunish his stuff really hard : Voldo's recovery are really fast (-10 to -17 JG most of the time) !
Why dash 3A or 44A? Idk, they were listed in moves that Voldo uses in the neutral game. I didn't think they were good either. 33A is better than I thought it was. And 1A and 4A is starting to look better now that you made me realize how BS at a distance can actually be hard to deal with.

Dash-iMCF works pretty well against front-turned when it's used to aim for a counter hit, since a lot of his moves send him forward without an attack in front of it as part of the startup. You can kind of just hang outside Voldo's range, then run forward into it and iMCF the air in front of you and you'll hit Voldo if he attacks, and usually be ok if iMCF whiffs. This is a strategy I use against Aeon 66A spam as well (though he can start 4B+King over it). Because of the closeness of his "hurtbox" when he attacks with stuff like 66B, 2B, BB, 3A, a bunch of other moves, he's also very vulnerable to iMCF when he attacks at advantage (this would be the nonneutral game though).

Valid points about BS at a distance though. BS A would stuff a lot of things. BS 4B, a move already worth using for its long range and odd tracking, would go over iFC3K. I think you can make 33B TC work if you space it in the right place, where the TC begins at the timing that BS A would come at you on reaction, but yeah it's not completely reliable.

I haven't played Voldo players that actually make use of all his tools in the neutral game, so maybe you're right, it's not so bad.